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Post by iw5000 on Jan 4, 2012 13:00:05 GMT -5
Analysis: The L86 "Visual in-game breakdown"Introduction.By now, most everyone should know the L86, if equipped with the thermal, is one of the best guns in MW3. What everyone might not know, is just by how much, when comparing to the other attachments? And what about the other LMG's? Does one get the same effect? Or other questions, like what is the effect of other attachments like the red dot, silencer, grip vs kick and countless other 'what if' scenarios like the Holo and ACOG.This thread is going to answer all those questions and map it out in very easy to read, and see analysis. Part One - Range vs RecoilBefore we can break down all the attachments and the dozens of combinations, let's first take a quick look at what goes on with the L86. Specifically, the effects of the recoil at various distances. We'll use the map 'Arkaden', firing at three distances against the far wall, over on the A-side of the map (if one was playing Domination) Here's what we are looking at: For this quick test, we are using the L86 with no attachments. Just the iron sights and 'kick'. We fire off a one second burst (about 12 to 14 bullets in all) at three distances: 20 meters, 28 meters and 37 meters. Why that range? Because it's approximately between 20m and 37m that the L86's damage drops off from 38d to 20d. Pretty much, you need three bullets to kill at 20 meters, and five bullets to kill at 38 meters. To help give a better visual, we superimposed three ghost targets against the wall, with the spray pattern behind them. As one can see, the L86 works at 20 meters, getting three bullets into someone is a lock. Getting four bullets at 28 meters? Well.....not so easy. Getting five bullets at 37m? Good luck. As one can see, the gun kicks and sprays all over the place. You'll probably get in 3 bullets, but good luck with five. You are probably not going to get the kill. Conclusion? The L86 is bulky and slow in CQC. You'll be destroyed up close. 30 meters and out, it basically sucks as a gun, as the recoil and spray make it useless. Pretty much, this gun blows at first and one needs to muscle through the bad times, to get to the better attachments. Part Two - Early levels with the L86The Red Dot is one of the earlier attachments you pick up when leveling up the L86. So the question to ask, is what are the BEST combinations to use with it? Below are a number of combinations with the Red Dot. The L86 firing off 3 to 4 seconds worth of bullets (39 to 50 bullets) at a distance of 37 meters. Working left to right on the bottom of the wall, (bottom row) Red Dot + Grip, Red Dot + Kick, Red Dot + Stability. As can be seen, if you have to pick one of these three, go with the Red Dot + Kick. That has the best results. The two spray patterns on top of those three? That's the Red Dot with Silencer, and Red Dot with Rapid Fire. As you can see, the spray area with the silencer is twice that of using 'kick'. And Rapid Fire? It's a waste of time. Don't even use it. The L86 kicks so quickly upward that the gun is rendered useless. Part Three - Getting the Thermal The Thermal is one of the last attachments, and the L86 goes into beast mode when you put it on. This is when the L86 becomes a game changer. So what are the best combination when using Thermal? Looking below (at the picture), going left to right, bottom patterns then top, we find the following order all using Thermal: (bottom row) Grip, Kick, Stability, (top row) Silencer, Rapid Fire Conclusion? Grip is the easy winner here. Kick helps, the spray circumference is still about 80% larger. Silencer and Stability wipen the zone almost threefold. What is interesting though is that the Thermal does hold the rapid fire kick-up at bay. As can be seen, one can now actually maintain the 35 to 40 bullets on the wall (whereas with red dot, it kicked right up and off the wall). All in all, the best attachment is clearly 'Grip'. Part Four - What about Thermal with the other LMG's? Good question. There are four other LMG's. Does the Thermal have the same effect with them, as it does with the L86? This often confuses people, so let's find out. Looking below (at the picture), going left to right, bottom patterns then top, we find the following order all using Thermal: (bottom row) L86, PKP, MK46, (top row) M60, MG36 Conclusion? The Thermal attachment is going to best work with the L86. As can be seen above, the PKP and MK46 do sort of ok, but the reality is, the PKP and MK46's bullet spray area is about what the L86 would be using the Red Dot. Why bother? As far as the M60 and MG36....the thermal helps control recoil, somewhat, but as can be seen, the spray pattern on those guns is still garbage. Bottom line.....the Thermal attachment trick best works with ONLY the L86. Part Five- What about the L86 and other attachments? What about the Holo? The ACOG? Let's take a look at those next. Looking below (at the picture), going left to right, bottom patterns then top, we find the following order (bottom row) Grip + Red Dot, Grip+Thermal, Grip+ACOG, Grip+Holo (Top row) Grip+Kick. Conclusion? Another knock-out blow for the Grip+Thermal combo. As can be seen, none of these other combination even gets remotely close. Don't bother using the Holo or ACOG, it's not worth your time. Part Six - One more hidden tip Look carefully at that past picture. Hidden inside it is one more hidden tip that will blow away people's minds, in terms of just how overpowered the L86 with thermal can be. Let me repost the same picture, just now using an arrow to point out a small, tiny set of bullets holes near the middle..... ....what appears to be 3 to 4 bullet holes, is in actuality this. A full 100 round clip being fired into the wall. 100 bullets, in that tiny area. How is that possible? Firing the L86 while lying prone. If you lie prone, the L86 with Thermal has zero recoil. None whatsoever. It can place 100 bullets literally ALL in the exact same spot. Better yet, there is no range restrictions either. The picture below is a example of firing the L86 from about 60 meters away. The bottom bullet spray pattern was from shooting while standing 60 meters away....very impressive from that distance. The top small, very tiny little hole? Yep, that's exactly 100 bullets all hitting the same spot from 60 meters....just lying prone. Unbelievably impressive. Here's another tip, in addition to all the obvious things shown. Try this combo out in place of your sniping rifle. The L86 with Thermal can be the hands down best sniper rifle in the game (in my humble opinion, obviously, people's opinions can vary) Why? The Thermal attachment gives a 2.4x magnification, right about the same as the AS50's scope, and not far behind the 2.8x scope on the low end of the Variable scope. So you have your comparable scoping abilities. But unlike the sniper rifles, you can fire 20, 30, 40 bullets at a time with less recoil. And if you are prone, you have no recoil on up to 100 bullets. At 50, 60 70 meters away, ...you can destroy multiple enemies and no issues with holding your breath, recoil or reloading. Part Seven - Questions from the postThis was raised by some other people in the thread........ "Clip vs Clip the MK will get you more kills, L86 will get you more assists. You also fail to mention that if you crouch or prone with the MK it'll get you pretty close to an L86.", ......and then another similar thought...... " MK thermal/kick is nearly as laser-like as the L86 but more powerful. seems like the better choice to me" Some people feel the MK46 is better. Obviously, there is a lot of personal preference and opinion on what is 'better', but we decided to test out how just these two guns compare in accuracy, under a few conditions. Test one checked out how accurate both guns were, while lying prone, at two distances: 30 and 47 meters. We fired off an entire clip of 100 bullets and the results are below. Conclusion. The above results are interesting. As can be seen, the L86 is considerably more accurate at both ranges. But.....the MK46 appears to be accurate 'enough', in a sense that it's spray pattern is tight enough, that is going to get the 3 to 4 needed bullets into the enemy. The result here appears to be a wash, and all about spitting hairs. Both guns offset and will work equally well while prone. This begs the question though...what if you aren't prone? Let's be real here. In a typical nine minute CoD match, you can't be prone all the time. You also are removing yourself from a ton of good firing positions, by forcing yourself to be prone. Let's be fair....a lot of encounters, you need to be standing to see over a wall, an obstacle, etc...So how do the two guns compare now? Thoughts? The comments before were that the MK is " pretty close" and "nearly close". Well, that's not really the case. When standing, the L86 is significantly more accurate. It's not close. If you are trying to shoot a moving target or someone weaving behind a wall, 30 meters out, the L86 is better. At 40 meters out, 47 meters, forget it. The L86 has a significant advantage. The spray pattern/recoil is 4x to 5x less large. Need an extra bullet to kill? So what, your bullets go where you aim. Summing it up, the MK vs L86 with Thermal? On just a pure accuracy basis, the L86 wins out. But as we all know, there are other factors. The MK46 has slightly better power. Both kill with three bullet up to 30 meters or so....but the MK needs one less bullet at 32 plus meters out (4 vs 5). So the MK46 doesn't have to be quite as accurate. If you are lying prone all the time, you can force all your shootouts to be in the prone positions....its a pure wash. Both work equally well. Use what feels best. But that's a bit of fantasy, that you can have all your encounters being in the prone position. If you are standing behind cover, shooting while standing/moving, the L86 is significantly more accurate now. And even with it's slightly less damage, it's significant accuracy makes up for it. One more thing. As said, there are other factors. One thing hardly ever mentioned with both guns is reload times. If you are trying to work higher killstreaks, staying alive for a period of time, you are going to have to reload a few times. Good luck in hoping no one shows up to shoot you, while you take the 8 seconds needed to reload the MK. Almost 3 1/2 seconds longer than the L86. If you are playing ground war, you really think you can go 8 seconds with no one coming at you??? Hell no. You are going to be killed a few times every game, while reloading. And yes, Sleight of Hand can help here, knocking reloads from 8.87 sec to 4.50 seconds, .....but ...now you are forced to use that perk. In fact, you almost HAVE to use the SoH perk with the MK. You have no choice and are giving up other options like Conditioning, Marksman, Blindeye, Scavenger, etc...You now have less flexibility. Final conclusion?All in all, both guns will work well with Thermal. A good player will make both work extremely well. If you keep all your battles while prone, it's statistically a wash. Use either. If you need to move around, be standing, shoot while up, the L86 has a decent accuracy/damage edge. When you factor in the the L86 allows more flexibility, more creativity with perk selection...... . ..the advantage goes to the L86. Part Seven - Questions from the post'wittyscorpion' raised a good question earlier, as to what gives the big boost in accuracy? Is it lying prone or using the Thermal? Why not just red dot and go prone? Will that work just as well? We decided to take a look at that. The first test was below, we went prone at 30 and 47 meters. Compared the L86 with Grip+RD, versus Grip+Thermal. The results are below. The L86 is insanely accurate with both. It really makes no difference what attachment you use...IF you are prone. With both, you have almost 100% accuracy, no recoil. So that begs the question, why even use the Thermal attachment? Well, there's an answer to this. While lying prone imparts magical accuracy powers on every LMG, regardless of what attachments you use......the powers disappear as soon as you shoot standing up. Below is the same test, but now standing up. As can be seen, things change now. Just looking at the short distance of 30 meters in the above test, you can see how the Red Dot gets wildly inaccurate. There wasn't even a need to test at 47 meters, the results are even worse. Conclusion? You need to use the Red Dot for a while, until the Thermal is unlocked. When using the RD, ....try to stay prone. Your accuracy boost is off the charts, by a ridiculously high 95% amount of reduction in spray pattern. If you aren't prone, this is where the RD kind of blows. You'll spray all over at 30m, and at 35, 40, plus meters, ....you'll be missing the broad side of the barn. That's the advantage of Thermal. Those magical accuracy powers you get while prone? You keep most all of them even when you stand up to shoot!!! .........
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Post by Kay-Oh! on Jan 4, 2012 13:36:44 GMT -5
It is really debatable whether you should use words like "don't even use", "waste of time" and "forget sniping". Although I do know what you mean with it, and I do partly agree, it just sounds like you are ridiculing people who actually do use it and do snipe. A gun will never be totally useless, and really, I still prefer sniping to get the one shot kills, because landing multiple shots at long range would require much more time for the target to stay exposed to your gunfire and not running to cover after the first hit.
Note that I have no problems at all with the language you're using, but it might be discouraging for people to use the weapon under certain circumstances. Of course, if that is your intention, then it is all fine.
And, I just love these threads, and I love the fact that you use pictures to visualise the situations you are talking about, and taking effort into making them. You get my appreciation up to level Asian.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 4, 2012 13:45:35 GMT -5
It is really debatable whether you should use words like "don't even use", "waste of time" and "forget sniping". Although I do know what you mean with it, and I do partly agree, it just sounds like you are ridiculing people who actually do use it and do snipe. A gun will never be totally useless, and really, I still prefer sniping to get the one shot kills, because landing multiple shots at long range would require much more time for the target to stay exposed to your gunfire and not running to cover after the first hit. Note that I have no problems at all with the language you're using, but it might be discouraging for people to use the weapon under certain circumstances. Of course, if that is your intention, then it is all fine. And, I just love these threads, and I love the fact that you use pictures to visualise the situations you are talking about, and taking effort into making them. You get my appreciation up to level Asian. Ok...then let me put a disclaimer up. When I say 'don't use' and 'worthless'.....i mean in the context of IF someone is just looking for pure performance. That is, you are using the gun and have to find the BEST combination for performance, in gettting kills. I kind of assumed it goes without saying, there are always plenty of reasons to use something that is not quite as effective. Reason one that pops to mind is doing challenges. I'll often times use weird combos that kind of suck, but I simply want to do get a challenge down. That's a definitely valid reason to try something. Another is just personal taste. When I played Blops, the HS10 wasn't a very effective gun, but I found the sound and animations to be a hoot, so I used it a good bit, because it was fun. So no intention to ridicule, just trying to make it very clear, 'performance' wise, (and only that), what is best. As a side benefit, hopefully trying to save someone the time of grinding out a dozen games, say with the ACOG, seeing if it works, or doing that in a practice session.
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sh58
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Post by sh58 on Jan 4, 2012 13:47:09 GMT -5
nice thread, i am however always a little suspicious of these test firings.
as the recoil has a random element, surely you should make several plots with the same weapons/attatchments etc to get a good enough sample size to make valid assumptions
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Post by Kay-Oh! on Jan 4, 2012 13:50:45 GMT -5
I'm sure he tested everything multiple times.
Btw, are you planning to make these for all weapons? Because that would be even better than the videos of XboxAhoy (too bad Activision removed them).
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 4, 2012 13:51:42 GMT -5
nice thread, i am however always a little suspicious of these test firings. as the recoil has a random element, surely you should make several plots with the same weapons/attatchments etc to get a good enough sample size to make valid assumptions 1. The tests were done a few times with each example, to see if the spray pattern stayed consistent. I didn't see a need though, to put up 3 to 4 pictures for every example. That seemed like overkill. While the spray pattern wasn't perfectly matched for each and every example, overall......the spray pattern ratios stayed the same. For example, the Grip+Thermal 'spray' was consistently smaller than the 'Kick+Thermal spray, by about the same amount. If you want it in numbers, the G+Th 'spray' area is about 0.40 to 0.45 that of the K+Th spray area. That stayed consistent upon each test. 2. My tests were done at a range of 37 meters, the distance where the L86's damage drops down to 20d. Spray pattern results will vary of course, depending on which range you choose to pick. I did cover this though, at the end. Thermal + Grip maintains a very tight pattern even up to a range of 60 meters. There's nothing going to beat it.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 4, 2012 14:13:32 GMT -5
You've lost me in that the last image of a standing L86 thermal is very accurate from 60m, but the second recoil plot shows it highly inaccurate at presumably 37m
aside from that, this is not an overpowered gun, even if you got prone accuracy while standing. the thermal is a horrible drawback, hipfire is very poor, movement speed poor, and TTK only average.
i cant see it excelling even at long ranges due to the thermal requirement.
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Post by cashmoves on Jan 4, 2012 14:17:51 GMT -5
nice thread, i am however always a little suspicious of these test firings. as the recoil has a random element, surely you should make several plots with the same weapons/attatchments etc to get a good enough sample size to make valid assumptions 1. The tests were done a few times with each example, to see if the spray pattern stayed consistent. I didn't see a need though, to put up 3 to 4 pictures for every example. That seemed like overkill. While the spray pattern wasn't perfectly matched for each and every example, overall......the spray pattern ratios stayed the same. For example, the Grip+Thermal 'spray' was consistently smaller than the 'Kick+Thermal spray, by about the same amount. If you want it in numbers, the G+Th 'spray' area is about 0.40 to 0.45 that of the K+Th spray area. That stayed consistent upon each test. 2. My tests were done at a range of 37 meters, the distance where the L86's damage drops down to 20d. Spray pattern results will vary of course, depending on which range you choose to pick. I did cover this though, at the end. Thermal + Grip maintains a very tight pattern even up to a range of 60 meters. There's nothing going to beat it. absolutely phenomenal work! this is a great post. I have two comments/requests. 1) I maxed out the l86 and had first hand experience with the grip + thermal combo. I've also maxed out the mk46. I liked the mk46 much more... the stats on the mk46 are superior - faster fire rate, better damage, and better range I believe. now I know the l86 is more accurate, but the real question is 'how much?'. could you show side by side comparisons of the l86 and mk46 with grip + thermal, and thermal + silencer? 2) it was my experience that prone makes a massive difference, more than any attachment or proficiency besides thermal. could you show side by side comparisons of the two above setups while standing, crouched and prone? my hypothesis is that the mk46 while prone will not be as far from the l86 while prone as when they were standing. for what its worth, my favorite setup was mk46 + speed and silencer. I found that prone made it so accurate, I didn't even need the thermal... oh and that's in the context of mostly groundwar.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jan 4, 2012 14:18:12 GMT -5
iw5000: very nice analysis. When I was investigating Kick vs. Focus I started the private match testing like you did here and I found that it is tremendously useful in understanding how a weapon behaves with different customization. A few questions and comments: 1) It is well known that prone helps LMG (and SR) tremendously and can turn them into lazer, regardless whether thermal is equipped or not. Have you tried to compare prone shooting with and without thermal and see if there is a difference? Since I prone shoot almost all the time when using MK46, I have been thinking about changing my current Grip+Thermal or Silencer + Thermal to Speed + Grip or Speed + Silencer, especially after seeing your results that Thermal does not help MK46 too much. 2) I tried to use LMG for sniping and I have to say that it is quite different from a Sniper Rifle for the following reasons: - Sniper Rifle is OSK
- Sometimes 2.4x zoom is not good enough. Sniper Rifle can have 4.8X with normal scope and 9.2X with variable scope.
- Thermal helps tremendously when shooting somebody w/o Assassin, but shooting at somebody w/Assassin is more difficult than without thermal
- LMG is at significant disadvantage in a sniper duel. The enemy sniper has superior zoom and faster kill time.
- Sniper Rifle is much more effective for quick scoping because of OSK. You can try to use LMG w/thermal to rail gun as well, but the 3HK is more often than not too slow.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 4, 2012 14:23:44 GMT -5
1) It is well known that prone helps LMG (and SR) tremendously and can turn them into lazer, regardless whether thermal is equipped or not. Have you tried to compare prone shooting with and without thermal and see if there is a difference? That would be an interesting experiment to add to this thread. Please add any results you get. Let me add this to the above. The L86 Thermal+Grip has a tighter spray pattern than the MK46 Thermal+Grip. That is known. But it's all relative. The Thermal 'might' help reduce the recoil on the MK46 by the same percentage as it did on the L86. This is another test than can be done. So if your favorite gun is the MK46, ....test it out. It will never be as good as the L86, but it's relative. Thermal + Grip still might help reduce recoil on it.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 4, 2012 14:40:14 GMT -5
MK thermal/kick is nearly as laser-like as the L86 but more powerful. seems like the better choice to me
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 4, 2012 14:59:12 GMT -5
MK thermal/kick is nearly as laser-like as the L86 but more powerful. seems like the better choice to me I didn't test the MK with Kick. I tested it with Grip. And 'nearly' is a tough word to define. When testing under those conditions, the L86 consistently had a spray pattern that was anywhere from .60 to .75 of that of the MK46. Are we splitting hairs there? Yes and no. 2/3rds less spray on a target at 37 meters is significant, it's not minor. Does the MK's 25 vs 20 damage make up for larger spray? Probably a little. The million dollar question is this....... Does the MK46's 50% larger spray offset by needing one less bullet? (the MK only needs four bullets to hit at 37 meters, versus the L86's five) At 37 meters, it probably doesn't make to much of a difference. The L86's 6th, 7th and even 10th bullet are all going to hit immediately with the thermal, so needing an extra bullet to kill is irrelevant. All in all, not saying the MK sucks. It's good. But it's slightly extra damage/range modifier become kind of irrelevant with the Thermal's lazer like abilities. The L86 is just a bit more accurate. And when you couple in how the L86 has a much faster ADS, as well as reload time.....it makes the L86 much more of a manageable weapon, getting around.
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Post by cashmoves on Jan 4, 2012 15:10:23 GMT -5
MK thermal/kick is nearly as laser-like as the L86 but more powerful. seems like the better choice to me I agree. the mk46 with speed and silencer is 100 mag assault rifle with best in class damage, fire rate, range, and towing
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 4, 2012 15:11:22 GMT -5
firerate is unfortunately the same across the L86, PKP, and MK46 for some reason..
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 4, 2012 15:18:04 GMT -5
MK thermal/kick is nearly as laser-like as the L86 but more powerful. seems like the better choice to me I agree. the mk46 with speed and silencer is 100 mag assault rifle with best in class damage, fire rate, range, and towing You are splitting hairs with the stats. The MK's has a 40/25 at 750/1,500.....versus the L86's 38/20 at 850/1,500. The net effect when you run the above through the formula's, is the MK has about a 2 meter advantage in it's range for bullet kills. ie, the MK kills with two bullets at 27 meters, versus 25 meters with the L86. Two meters....splitting hairs. While I haven't tested Kick+Thermal on the MK....using Grip, it's spray pattern is 40 to 50% larger than the L86. The 2 to 3 meter advantage does not overcompensate that, imho. Good discussion though!
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Post by cashmoves on Jan 4, 2012 15:35:19 GMT -5
I agree. the mk46 with speed and silencer is 100 mag assault rifle with best in class damage, fire rate, range, and towing You are splitting hairs with the stats. The MK's has a 40/25 at 750/1,500.....versus the L86's 38/20 at 850/1,500. The net effect when you run the above through the formula's, is the MK has about a 2 meter advantage in it's range for bullet kills. ie, the MK kills with two bullets at 27 meters, versus 25 meters with the L86. Two meters....splitting hairs. While I haven't tested Kick+Thermal on the MK....using Grip, it's spray pattern is 40 to 50% larger than the L86. The 2 to 3 meter advantage does not overcompensate that, imho. Good discussion though! like I said before, the real test is how they compare while prone. and im fine splitting hairs, that's what we do. here's another you forgot to mention, the mk46 kills in 4 bullets in 0.21seconds to infinite and beyond. its never a 5 shot kill. the l86 on the other hand does require 5 shots with a corresponding time to kill of a painfully slow 0.30 seconds, almost a full tenth slower than the mk46. that's not hairsplitting. considering we're debating the accuracy of these guns at range, that is surely to come into play. in fact, its very noticeable if a player has given a lot of time to both guns (like... me!). you might counter that you still have to land all the bullets... and you'd be right!! that's why the crux here is how they compare while prone in various setups... if the mk46 is still significantly more inaccurate, then it's 4 shot advantage isn't much of an advantage. however, if its comparable, then... well... you get the picture.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 4, 2012 15:51:03 GMT -5
We'll just have to test it out!!!
One other point though too....ADS and Reload times. This is significant. Take reload. If you are mixing it up, in a firefight holding down a section of the map, trying to work a killstreak, you are going to have to reload once or twice. The MK has a HUGE reload time. Try pulling yourself out of a firefight and hoping no one comes around for 6 to 8 seconds. In ground war, you might as well be dead.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jan 4, 2012 16:04:07 GMT -5
We'll just have to test it out!!! One other point though too....ADS and Reload times. This is significant. Take reload. If you are mixing it up, in a firefight holding down a section of the map, trying to work a killstreak, you are going to have to reload once or twice. The MK has a HUGE reload time. Try pulling yourself out of a firefight and hoping no one comes around for 6 to 8 seconds. In ground war, you might as well be dead. I agree that the normal reload time is unacceptable. That's why I have decided to always use SoH to go with MK46 despite the large mags. More importantly, SoH helps greatly with switching to secondary, so I can rely on the akimbo MP for CQC.
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Post by mrdeeds on Jan 5, 2012 2:00:51 GMT -5
The first lmg I earned a thermal for was the MK46 then on my next prestige I earned it for the L86 but I had nowhere as much success with it.
Everybody has their preferences and I prefer the MK46 with any attachment over the L86 with thermal. My prefered thermal setup is the MK46 with thermal and a silencer. Clip vs Clip the MK will get you more kills, L86 will get you more assists. You also fail to mention that if you crouch or prone with the MK it'll get you pretty close to an L86.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 5, 2012 10:17:51 GMT -5
You also fail to mention that if you crouch or prone with the MK it'll get you pretty close to an L86. That's been added to the main post, the results testing that.... -------------------- Part Seven - Future tests and thoughtsThis was raised by some other people in the thread........ "Clip vs Clip the MK will get you more kills, L86 will get you more assists. You also fail to mention that if you crouch or prone with the MK it'll get you pretty close to an L86.", ......and then another similar thought...... " MK thermal/kick is nearly as laser-like as the L86 but more powerful. seems like the better choice to me" Some people feel the MK46 is better. Obviously, there is a lot of personal preference and opinion on what is 'better', but we decided to test out how just these two guns compare in accuracy, under a few conditions. Test one checked out how accurate both guns were, while lying prone, at two distances: 30 and 47 meters. We fired off an entire clip of 100 bullets and the results are below. Conclusion. The above results are interesting. As can be seen, the L86 is considerably more accurate at both ranges. But.....the MK46 appears to be accurate 'enough', in a sense that it's spray pattern is tight enough, that is going to get the 3 to 4 needed bullets into the enemy. The result here appears to be a wash, and all about spitting hairs. Both guns offset and will work equally well while prone. This begs the question though...what if you aren't prone? Let's be real here. In a typical nine minute CoD match, you can't be prone all the time. You also are removing yourself from a ton of good firing positions, by forcing yourself to be prone. Let's be fair....a lot of encounters, you need to be standing to see over a wall, an obstacle, etc...So how do the two guns compare now? Thoughts? The comments before were that the MK is " pretty close" and "nearly close". Well, that's not really the case. When standing, the L86 is significantly more accurate. It's not close. If you are trying to shoot a moving target or someone weaving behind a wall, 30 meters out, the L86 is better. At 40 meters out, 47 meters, forget it. The L86 has a significant advantage. The spray pattern/recoil is 4x to 5x less large. Need an extra bullet to kill? So what, your bullets go where you aim. Summing it up, the MK vs L86 with Thermal? On just a pure accuracy basis, the L86 wins out. But as we all know, there are other factors. The MK46 has slightly better power. Both kill with three bullet up to 30 meters or so....but the MK needs one less bullet at 32 plus meters out (4 vs 5). So the MK46 doesn't have to be quite as accurate. If you are lying prone all the time, you can force all your shootouts to be in the prone positions....its a pure wash. Both work equally well. Use what feels best. But that's a bit of fantasy, that you can have all your encounters being in the prone position. If you are standing behind cover, shooting while standing/moving, the L86 is significantly more accurate now. And even with it's slightly less damage, it's significant accuracy makes up for it. One more thing. As said, there are other factors. One thing hardly ever mentioned with both guns is reload times. If you are trying to work higher killstreaks, staying alive for a period of time, you are going to have to reload a few times. Good luck in hoping no one shows up to shoot you, while you take the 8 seconds needed to reload the MK. Almost 3 1/2 seconds longer than the L86. If you are playing ground war, you really think you can go 8 seconds with no one coming at you??? Hell no. You are going to be killed a few times every game, while reloading. And yes, Sleight of Hand can help here, knocking reloads from 8.87 sec to 4.50 seconds, .....but ...now you are forced to use that perk. In fact, you almost HAVE to use the SoH perk with the MK. You have no choice and are giving up other options like Conditioning, Marksman, Blindeye, Scavenger, etc...You now have less flexibility. Final conclusion?All in all, both guns will work well with Thermal. A good player will make both work extremely well. If you keep all your battles while prone, it's statistically a wash. Use either. If you need to move around, be standing, shoot while up, the L86 has a decent accuracy/damage edge. When you factor in the the L86 allows more flexibility, more creativity with perk selection...... . ..the advantage goes to the L86.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 5, 2012 10:37:05 GMT -5
iw5000: very nice analysis. When I was investigating Kick vs. Focus I started the private match testing like you did here and I found that it is tremendously useful in understanding how a weapon behaves with different customization. A few questions and comments: 1) It is well known that prone helps LMG (and SR) tremendously and can turn them into lazer, regardless whether thermal is equipped or not. Have you tried to compare prone shooting with and without thermal and see if there is a difference? Good question, so I went and tested it. Added it to the main post. ------------------------ Other Questions'wittyscorpion' raised a good question earlier, as to what gives the big boost in accuracy? Is it lying prone or using the Thermal? Why not just red dot and go prone? Will that work just as well? We decided to take a look at that. The first test was below, we went prone at 30 and 47 meters. Compared the L86 with Grip+RD, versus Grip+Thermal. The results are below. The L86 is insanely accurate with both. It really makes no difference what attachment you use...IF you are prone. With both, you have almost 100% accuracy, no recoil. So that begs the question, why even use the Thermal attachment? Well, there's an answer to this. While lying prone imparts magical accuracy powers on every LMG, regardless of what attachments you use......the powers disappear as soon as you shoot standing up. Below is the same test, but now standing up. As can be seen, things change now. Just looking at the short distance of 30 meters in the above test, you can see how the Red Dot gets wildly inaccurate. There wasn't even a need to test at 47 meters, the results are even worse. Conclusion? You need to use the Red Dot for a while, until the Thermal is unlocked. When using the RD, ....try to stay prone. Your accuracy boost is off the charts, by a ridiculously high 95% amount of reduction in spray pattern. If you aren't prone, this is where the RD kind of blows. You'll spray all over at 30m, and at 35, 40, plus meters, ....you'll be missing the broad side of the barn. That's the advantage of Thermal. Those magical accuracy powers you get while prone? You keep most all of them even when you stand up to shoot!!!
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Post by cashmoves on Jan 5, 2012 10:43:57 GMT -5
You also fail to mention that if you crouch or prone with the MK it'll get you pretty close to an L86. That's been added to the main post, the results testing that.... -------------------- Part Seven - Future tests and thoughtsThis was raised by some other people in the thread........ "Clip vs Clip the MK will get you more kills, L86 will get you more assists. You also fail to mention that if you crouch or prone with the MK it'll get you pretty close to an L86.", ......and then another similar thought...... " MK thermal/kick is nearly as laser-like as the L86 but more powerful. seems like the better choice to me" Some people feel the MK46 is better. Obviously, there is a lot of personal preference and opinion on what is 'better', but we decided to test out how just these two guns compare in accuracy, under a few conditions. Test one checked out how accurate both guns were, while lying prone, at two distances: 30 and 47 meters. We fired off an entire clip of 100 bullets and the results are below. Conclusion. The above results are interesting. As can be seen, the L86 is considerably more accurate at both ranges. But.....the MK46 appears to be accurate 'enough', in a sense that it's spray pattern is tight enough, that is going to get the 3 to 4 needed bullets into the enemy. The result here appears to be a wash, and all about spitting hairs. Both guns offset and will work equally well while prone. This begs the question though...what if you aren't prone? Let's be real here. In a typical nine minute CoD match, you can't be prone all the time. You also are removing yourself from a ton of good firing positions, by forcing yourself to be prone. Let's be fair....a lot of encounters, you need to be standing to see over a wall, an obstacle, etc...So how do the two guns compare now? Thoughts? The comments before were that the MK is " pretty close" and "nearly close". Well, that's not really the case. When standing, the L86 is significantly more accurate. It's not close. If you are trying to shoot a moving target or someone weaving behind a wall, 30 meters out, the L86 is better. At 40 meters out, 47 meters, forget it. The L86 has a significant advantage. The spray pattern/recoil is 4x to 5x less large. Need an extra bullet to kill? So what, your bullets go where you aim. Summing it up, the MK vs L86 with Thermal? On just a pure accuracy basis, the L86 wins out. But as we all know, there are other factors. The MK46 has slightly better power. Both kill with three bullet up to 30 meters or so....but the MK needs one less bullet at 32 plus meters out (4 vs 5). So the MK46 doesn't have to be quite as accurate. If you are lying prone all the time, you can force all your shootouts to be in the prone positions....its a pure wash. Both work equally well. Use what feels best. But that's a bit of fantasy, that you can have all your encounters being in the prone position. If you are standing behind cover, shooting while standing/moving, the L86 is significantly more accurate now. And even with it's slightly less damage, it's significant accuracy makes up for it. One more thing. As said, there are other factors. One thing hardly ever mentioned with both guns is reload times. If you are trying to work higher killstreaks, staying alive for a period of time, you are going to have to reload a few times. Good luck in hoping no one shows up to shoot you, while you take the 8 seconds needed to reload the MK. Almost 3 1/2 seconds longer than the L86. If you are playing ground war, you really think you can go 8 seconds with no one coming at you??? Hell no. You are going to be killed a few times every game, while reloading. And yes, Sleight of Hand can help here, knocking reloads from 8.87 sec to 4.50 seconds, .....but ...now you are forced to use that perk. In fact, you almost HAVE to use the SoH perk with the MK. You have no choice and are giving up other options like Conditioning, Marksman, Blindeye, Scavenger, etc...You now have less flexibility. Final conclusion?All in all, both guns will work well with Thermal. A good player will make both work extremely well. If you keep all your battles while prone, it's statistically a wash. Use either. If you need to move around, be standing, shoot while up, the L86 has a decent accuracy/damage edge. When you factor in the the L86 allows more flexibility, more creativity with perk selection...... . ..the advantage goes to the L86. this is exactly what was needed and really shows the power of prone in mw3. I LOVE that new mechanic. it also shows why when using the mk46 I was most effective with speed and silencer and assassin. even with the thermal, while standing it is not special. your best bet is to quickly run to a good spot, get prone and pick off unsuspecting enemies at all distances. why are you using grip + thermal on l86 but kick + thermal on mk46?
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 5, 2012 10:53:27 GMT -5
why are you using grip + thermal on l86 but kick + thermal on mk46? Because one of the people who raised the MK questions....insisted that the gun works best with 'kick', not 'grip' So i tested it like he said, using 'kick'.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 5, 2012 11:03:36 GMT -5
this is exactly what was needed and really shows the power of prone in mw3. I LOVE that new mechanic. it also shows why when using the mk46 I was most effective with speed and silencer and assassin. even with the thermal, while standing it is not special. your best bet is to quickly run to a good spot, get prone and pick off unsuspecting enemies at all distances You are right....going 'prone' in MW3 imparts almost superhuman magical accuracy powers on the LMG's. Like you said, you really don't need any Thermal, you can run other things, be flexible...use 'Speed', put on the silencer, experiment. My problem with the above? I play Domination. And by forcing your hand, forcing yourself to always be prone......You are tossing away a lot of great positions you can use. Firing behind walls, boxes, crates, etc....I can guestimate that maybe i lose 1/2 of my pre-set cover positions in Domination, by giving up the standing position. I simply can't do that. There are a TON of great standing cover positions in the maps, where you can just nail people at 35, 40 meters and beyond. And as far as silencer and assassin....it's good for the first kill, but if you are prone, you tend not to move much. By the 2nd, 3rd kill....the other team knows exactly where you are, so you are no longer hidden. Now the battle changes, they know your spot, and are coming right at you. Your silencer gives you no advantage. From my end, I love when this happens though. I want people to come to me. And when they do,.....I want to have lazer-like accuracy to nail them, over and over and over. People ALWAYS underestimate just how accurate you can be with the L86/thermal combo. I've played about a full week and a half with the L86/Thermal now, about 2,100 kills worth of games. Mostly Domination. My KD over this time span is a ridiculously high 3.21 right now (and i'm still winning games too, record over this time is like 78-3.
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Post by cashmoves on Jan 5, 2012 11:39:22 GMT -5
this is exactly what was needed and really shows the power of prone in mw3. I LOVE that new mechanic. it also shows why when using the mk46 I was most effective with speed and silencer and assassin. even with the thermal, while standing it is not special. your best bet is to quickly run to a good spot, get prone and pick off unsuspecting enemies at all distances You are right....going 'prone' in MW3 imparts almost superhuman magical accuracy powers on the LMG's. Like you said, you really don't need any Thermal, you can run other things, be flexible...use 'Speed', put on the silencer, experiment. My problem with the above? I play Domination. And by forcing your hand, forcing yourself to always be prone......You are tossing away a lot of great positions you can use. Firing behind walls, boxes, crates, etc....I can guestimate that maybe i lose 1/2 of my pre-set cover positions in Domination, by giving up the standing position. I simply can't do that. There are a TON of great standing cover positions in the maps, where you can just nail people at 35, 40 meters and beyond. And as far as silencer and assassin....it's good for the first kill, but if you are prone, you tend not to move much. By the 2nd, 3rd kill....the other team knows exactly where you are, so you are no longer hidden. Now the battle changes, they know your spot, and are coming right at you. Your silencer gives you no advantage. From my end, I love when this happens though. I want people to come to me. And when they do,.....I want to have lazer-like accuracy to nail them, over and over and over. People ALWAYS underestimate just how accurate you can be with the L86/thermal combo. I've played about a full week and a half with the L86/Thermal now, about 2,100 kills worth of games. Mostly Domination. My KD over this time span is a ridiculously high 3.21 right now (and i'm still winning games too, record over this time is like 78-3. we're both just playing to our guns strengths. your gun allows you to utilize standing cover. so you'd have a little learning curve with the mk46 finding good prone spots just like you did when first using the l86. rather than crouching near a car or whatever im just prone next to it. I pick spots where I 'control' the kill feeds. assassin helps me get to these spots with less trouble. sure people know im there but my gun setup is so good it rarely matters. since its dom we rarely get flanked. plus you got all those crazy striker bros running around like crazy paying no mind to where you are even if you've killed then 5 times. the silencer definitely gives me an advantage. you can hear the mk46 from across the map. the silencer allows me to take advantage of the large clip by mowing down groups of rushers. without it, id get fewer of those awesome lmg double and triple kills. plus, since im using speed im basically as mobile as an ar. I do my OWN flanking. I get tons of close range kills by flanking, lying prone with assassin near a spawn and just unloading on people. speed and silencer add an entirely new dimension to your gameplay you simply cannot replicate otherwise. there is no one perfect setup. but there is a best way (or ways) to play with certain setups.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 5, 2012 11:45:23 GMT -5
since its dom we rarely get flanked. plus you got all those crazy striker bros running around like crazy paying no mind to where you are even if you've killed then 5 times. That is so true lol Don't forget about the dual FMG bros running around, they make good target practice too, and they tend to be just as dumb too!!!
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Post by y260 on Jan 6, 2012 0:25:28 GMT -5
Good analysis. I covered the L86 LSW in one of my recent videos, but these tests brought to light some important points that I had missed.
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asasa
True Bro
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Post by asasa on Jan 6, 2012 0:32:26 GMT -5
Well these recoil tests seem to prove the recoil values given in the game guide are wrong.
Vert recoil is different between the two, yet the MK has the same vert values//
hmmmmmm
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 6, 2012 10:13:15 GMT -5
Well these recoil tests seem to prove the recoil values given in the game guide are wrong. Vert recoil is different between the two, yet the MK has the same vert values// hmmmmmm I tend to take what's in the book with a grain of salt. Updates are always made, books are published months ago. Take the MK and L86. Going from memory, by the book, the MK only has slight higher recoil plots, we are splitting hairs. And as far as center speed, they both have a very good number of 1,700 if remembering right. So there's not much difference on paper. But attach the thermal...shooting standing up.....there is a clear, VERY obvious difference in spray plots. It's easy to see and test, real, actual game performance. Real results > book stats. Take the reload times as another example. I think the book has the full clip reload time for the MK at 8.1 seconds. In actuality, it takes around 8.8 to 9.0 seconds to reload. The book isn't right (or I am measuring differently from them)
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asasa
True Bro
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Posts: 4,255
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Post by asasa on Jan 6, 2012 10:26:41 GMT -5
Ugh, if only we could get the real stats. They seem to be "close" but not enough..
Thanks for these tests though.
Also, MK46 has much more idle sway which at least makes it equal to the L86 in my books.
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