FAL w/ACOG Sway

[Aphoristic]

What's the justification behind making this the only assault riffle with any ACOG sway? Is a semi-auto that overpowering with an acog?

[individual]

It's the most powerful.

With modded controllers, it could be unstoppable.

[ssog]

Dec 5, 2009 16:21:51 GMT -5 individual said:

It's the most powerful.

With modded controllers, it could be unstoppable.

It's already got more recoil per shot than any other AR, and the ACOG increases it further still. You could use a modded controller, and it'd work great if you were a fan of only having your first shot hit.

[cptmacmillan]

I'm going to go with because it's so similar to a sniper rifle with an acog (the sniper being better for core and the FAL being better for HC).

[chyros]

As to why the other assault rifles don't have it: that would mean they would be less than maximally overpowered in some way, and we can't have that of course.

Nah, probably has to do with the FAL's long-range potential. CoD 4 was coded in much the same way .

[cptmacmillan]

The problem is it really doesn't have any long-range potential outside of HC. You need 3 shots to kill at long range, and with the recoil on the acog your RoAF will not allow you to get a kill. There is no way someone will stay in your line of sight for the length of time it takes to fire off 3 accurate shots with the thing.

[individual]

Dec 5, 2009 18:02:05 GMT -5 ssog said:

Dec 5, 2009 16:21:51 GMT -5 individual said:

It's the most powerful.

With modded controllers, it could be unstoppable.

It's already got more recoil per shot than any other AR, and the ACOG increases it further still. You could use a modded controller, and it'd work great if you were a fan of only having your first shot hit.

It also has more damage per shot than any other sniper rifle.

Up close, it's a 2-shot kill even without stopping power. With SP, it's usually a 2 shot kill except at longer ranges.

[cptmacmillan]

It also has more damage per shot than any other sniper rifle.

I hope you meant any other rifle. It does have more damage per shot than every other rifle, but a modded controller w/ ACOG FAL is LESS USEFUL than WITHOUT a controller mod. Using a controller mod on an ACOG FAL is less fruitful than using a controller mod for a G82, WA2000, or M21. You WILL NOT get any hits past the first while aiming down an ACOG with the FAL with full-speed firing.

I'm not even sure if a modded controller would be worth it for a REGULAR FAL. The thing still has a pretty big recoil per shot.

[toysrme]

Dec 5, 2009 16:21:51 GMT -5 individual said:

It's the most powerful.
With modded controllers, it could be unstoppable.

trust me when i tell you its even more useless than it already is when rapidfiring. modded controllers just shoot the gun at X rate. i program to do that AND compensate (somewhat) for the recoil in the gun keeping it shooting alot flatter (at the expense of some things that affects console that doesn't PC).

Yet the FAiL absolutely sucks as an automatic weapon. The recoil & muzzle flash are too strong, reload too lengthy, the range damage too low & the clip size too small to make up for it.


M14 walks all over the FAiL because its a 2hk at any range in core with SP. if you are shooting at someone body center mass they fall over dead in 148ms (the time for the sight to settle back down).
G3 is better because it's going to get many more shots on target & reloads faster.




The combination of the new controller trigger register rules (which are very similar to COD4) and the general weakening of the semi-autos truely makes the FAiL a shadow of any of the COD4 semi-autos.
Honestly an M1A1 with 15 rounds from W@W would trounce it too.

[individual]

At very close and very long range, it's easily outclassed by other weapons, but in between, there's a certain range where the FAL is optimal. It's a 2-shot kill at close range. At close range, recoil and muzzle flash shouldn't matter. Since it's a 2-shot kill, if you're spamming the trigger accurately at close range, it will drop people faster than the other assault rifles... Maybe not as fast as the SMGs, but then you don't get the attachments on SMGs that you can have on the FAL.

Do the math on TTK at different ranges (at the highest firing rate possible in order to hit a torso-sized target) and you'll find it beats various weapons, although perhaps its optimal range is small.

The developers make each weapon unique and arguments that one weapon is "best", "worst", "useless," etc., are B.S. unless a certain gun is outclassed in every relevant stat by another weapon (like the Magnum over the Deagle).

[cptmacmillan]

at the highest firing rate possible in order to hit a torso-sized target

The subject at hand here is the ACOG FAL. Not the regular FAL. This proposed rate of fire of yours is pretty much slower than a M21 under the same limit while being significantly weaker.

[Den]

The FAL ACOG idles?

[ssog]

Dec 5, 2009 23:11:44 GMT -5 individual said:

unless a certain gun is outclassed in every relevant stat by another weapon (like the Magnum over the Deagle).

Magnum = better recoil
DEagle = 1 more bullet per clip

:shrug:

[individual]

Dec 6, 2009 4:43:19 GMT -5 cptmacmillan said:

at the highest firing rate possible in order to hit a torso-sized target

The subject at hand here is the ACOG FAL. Not the regular FAL. This proposed rate of fire of yours is pretty much slower than a M21 under the same limit while being significantly weaker.

Well, some weapons simply aren't good with certain attachments. Like the Skorpion with ACOG in COD4...

I bet the ACOG sucks on the Machine Guns also, especially the L86 LSW.

If a gun's recoil is bad enough that the ACOG makes it worse, then yes, such a setup is probably useless... The FAL W/ ACOG is probably not good at any range....

I honestly don't think there's any advantage at all to the ACOG on any gun.

The ACOG:
-Drastically increases recoil
-Drastically increases sway
-Somewhat increases aim down sight time

And the only thing you gain is a larger zoom.

Well, with higher recoil and sway, anything you couldn't see without the ACOG you probably couldn't hit accurately WITH an ACOG. With a slower aim down sight time, unless you have Sleight of Hand Pro, you're going to get gunned down very frequently at close range.

[individual]

Dec 6, 2009 5:50:31 GMT -5 ssog said:

Dec 5, 2009 23:11:44 GMT -5 individual said:

unless a certain gun is outclassed in every relevant stat by another weapon (like the Magnum over the Deagle).

Magnum = better recoil
DEagle = 1 more bullet per clip

:shrug:

That's technically true, yes, but think about it: How often would that one extra bullet come in handy compared to the usefulness of lowered recoil?

The Desert Eagle, with one extra bullet, allows you to miss one extra shot... But with lowered recoil, you won't have that problem to begin with.

You won't usually have to take down more than one person, so you only need 2-3 bullets to land, leaving you 3-4 bullets left in the Magnum's clip. So, of what use is the Desert Eagle's extra bullet? It would be pretty rare for a person to be saved by it.

[cptmacmillan]

individual: The entire point of this thread was discussing the FAL ACOG, particularly what justifies it having sway. Which isn't really anything, other than the fact that it's basically a Hardcore sniper rifle.

[Den]

No but really, the FAL + ACOG, idling?

{The FAL does not idle with an ACOG.}
{It is just some unusual animation that pulls the sight down and away from the center.}
{A similar kind of animation on the pistols with a tactical knife pulling the pistol sideways.}
{Take some shots at a wall and you'll see a pinpoint grouping.}

[mannon]

Can anybody verify? I have the FAL but haven't bothered even using it yet so I gots no ACOG.

[sleep]

ok, i did a quick and dirty test.

ADS with the FAL (no attachment) looks like it has a small amount of sway- basically if you look at the entire gun it's moving in a small repeated "breathing" pattern. however if you pay attention to the tip of the iron sight post, it's staying in the same exact spot through the whole animation, almost to the pixel. slowly firing an entire clip into a wall at very long range, you'll find that every bullet lands on the same spot with like millimeter deviation.

now, ACOG on the FAL basically replicates that very small idle sway "breathing" motion that was apparent on FAL w/no attachment ADS... however if you perform the same test, slowly firing 20 shots at a wall at great distance, you'll find that all the shots are in fact landing on the same exact spot, giving you the same exact non-spread as FAL w/no attachment. so that the ACOG crosshair is not pointing exactly where the bullet is going to hit (although it's extremely close). in other words the idle sway you see with the ACOG crosshair is not "real".

the idle pattern is roughly like a backwards "j" and the bullets always seem to land right about in the middle, whether you fire at the top point or the bottom.

tl;dr version: despite the small visible idle sway, FAL w/no attachment and FAL + ACOG will both put every bullet on the same spot at long range (comparable to the SCAR-H). remember this is if you're firing slowly enough so that kick is not an issue and we're only testing the idle sway.

[Aphoristic]

I didn't notice it til yesterday. It's not a whole lot of idle, but it does idle none the less.

360 version although I doubt it makes a difference.

[lefts]

The FAL looks like it has sway even without any attachments, but I tested it and it doesn't seem to deviate.

Anyone know if the AK-47 has ACOG sway?

[Aphoristic]

AK-47 has sway except with no attachments or ACOG.

[imrlybord7]

Dec 6, 2009 6:50:36 GMT -5 Den said:

No but really, the FAL + ACOG, idling?

{The FAL does not idle with an ACOG.}
{It is just some unusual animation that pulls the sight down and away from the center.}
{A similar kind of animation on the pistols with a tactical knife pulling the pistol sideways.}
{Take some shots at a wall and you'll see a pinpoint grouping.}

Still the man.

[sleep]

Dec 6, 2009 6:50:36 GMT -5 Den said:

No but really, the FAL + ACOG, idling?

{The FAL does not idle with an ACOG.}
{It is just some unusual animation that pulls the sight down and away from the center.}
{A similar kind of animation on the pistols with a tactical knife pulling the pistol sideways.}
{Take some shots at a wall and you'll see a pinpoint grouping.}

ha i did not see that there was 'spoiler' text in there. anyway den is obviously right.

[shanded]

[OT]Apart from all the swaying, there's no real reason to not just use an M21 with ACOG instead, at least that instakills without SP into the head, and with SP into the chest.
IMO not really worth it.[/OT]

[ssog]

Dec 6, 2009 6:10:03 GMT -5 individual said:

Dec 6, 2009 5:50:31 GMT -5 ssog said:

Magnum = better recoil
DEagle = 1 more bullet per clip

:shrug:

That's technically true, yes, but think about it: How often would that one extra bullet come in handy compared to the usefulness of lowered recoil?

The Desert Eagle, with one extra bullet, allows you to miss one extra shot... But with lowered recoil, you won't have that problem to begin with.

You won't usually have to take down more than one person, so you only need 2-3 bullets to land, leaving you 3-4 bullets left in the Magnum's clip. So, of what use is the Desert Eagle's extra bullet? It would be pretty rare for a person to be saved by it.

DEagle's arguably better for Akimbo or HC.

I agree that the Magnum is better, I was just disagreeing with your claim that it outclassed the DEagle in every relevant stat. In reality, it just traded an extra bullet for less recoil. That's a trade I'll gladly make, but it's not an example of a gun being across-the-board better than another gun. For an example of that, check out the Barrett vs. the R700, or the PTRS vs. the bolt action snipers, or the ACR vs. the M4, or the TAR vs. the AK-47, or the M240 vs. the MG4, or the PP2k vs. the TMP, or the Riot Shield vs. the Throwing Knife.

[cptmacmillan]

M240 vs. the MG4, or the PP2k vs. the TMP, or the Riot Shield vs. the Throwing Knife.

Each part of the section I quoted is a huge "what are you smoking" (especially the last one), combining into one mega-huge "what the hell is wrong with you?".

The M240 and the MG4 both have their advantages (namely the MG4 is useful because it has the least recoil of any full on LMG whereas the M240 isn't completely obsolete because it has a higher RoF). The TMP has about as much recoil as an ACR, whereas the PP2000 has more. And I don't even know how the hell a throwing knife outclasses a riot shield or vice versa. That makes about as much sense as IW.

[ssog]

Dec 6, 2009 20:50:18 GMT -5 cptmacmillan said:

M240 vs. the MG4, or the PP2k vs. the TMP, or the Riot Shield vs. the Throwing Knife.

Each part of the section I quoted is a huge "what are you smoking" (especially the last one), combining into one mega-huge "what the hell is wrong with you?".

The M240 and the MG4 both have their advantages (namely the MG4 is useful because it has the least recoil of any full on LMG whereas the M240 isn't completely obsolete because it has a higher RoF). The TMP has about as much recoil as an ACR, whereas the PP2000 has more. And I don't even know how the hell a throwing knife outclasses a riot shield or vice versa. That makes about as much sense as IW.

The M240/MG4 comparison was assuming both guns were gripped (really, I just almost automatically assume that all LMGs are gripped, since it's probably the single most powerful attachment in the entire game).

The PP2000 and TMP actually have pretty comparable recoil, in my experience. The recoil charts on the site show the PP2000 with a bit more recoil, but you have to remember that the PP2000 has a slightly larger clip, which leads to a bit more recoil. I've never noticed a practical difference, although I'll admit that I rarely go full-auto with my machine pistol secondary across the entire map.

The Riot Shield vs. the Throwing Knife was very obviously a joke.

[cptmacmillan]

Even with both having a grip the MG4 is still superior in accuracy with the m240 being superior in RoF. Neither is obsolete.

I don't use the recoil charts; anytime I talk about recoil it's typically out of my own experience. The TMP-PP2000 recoil relationship feels like the ACR-M4 recoil relationship.

It's hard to tell something stupid is a joke when other parts of your post are stupid too, and obviously not joke.

[chyros]

Dec 6, 2009 23:38:27 GMT -5 ssog said:

Dec 6, 2009 20:50:18 GMT -5 cptmacmillan said:

Each part of the section I quoted is a huge "what are you smoking" (especially the last one), combining into one mega-huge "what the hell is wrong with you?".

The M240 and the MG4 both have their advantages (namely the MG4 is useful because it has the least recoil of any full on LMG whereas the M240 isn't completely obsolete because it has a higher RoF). The TMP has about as much recoil as an ACR, whereas the PP2000 has more. And I don't even know how the hell a throwing knife outclasses a riot shield or vice versa. That makes about as much sense as IW.

The M240/MG4 comparison was assuming both guns were gripped (really, I just almost automatically assume that all LMGs are gripped, since it's probably the single most powerful attachment in the entire game).

This is true, the grip removes a fatal weakness on the LMG's and is the reason at least some of them are imbalanced. The MG4 is the only one who doesn't really need it that much though, which can be considered an advantage. So if you want a silenced LMG for example you could put it on an MG4 without having to use Bling.