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Post by mdbqnetwork on Jun 15, 2013 5:49:36 GMT -5
Well, looks like this part of the discussion is over since I pretty much said what I wanted to say and nobody is responding except a random troll response here and there. I just hope the developers read this and consider making changes.
Anyway, thanks for your input guys.
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pachiderm
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Post by pachiderm on Jun 15, 2013 8:46:28 GMT -5
This is getting off topic a bit, but I'd like to note in league play they are much more sophisticated with how they exploit this. They won't even bother trying to bait people around corners and just set riot shields up on all the chokepoints and utilize lag compensation themselves to take advantage of the same mechanic during stance changes like this guy demonstrated about a minute in a half in this video: That's called "snaking" and it has been in every CoD www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKOI82ayMBG5-M4q8bhPo-Z1JSjqzck3k. It is well known in the competitive community
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Post by mdbqnetwork on Jun 15, 2013 15:52:36 GMT -5
This is getting off topic a bit, but I'd like to note in league play they are much more sophisticated with how they exploit this. They won't even bother trying to bait people around corners and just set riot shields up on all the chokepoints and utilize lag compensation themselves to take advantage of the same mechanic during stance changes like this guy demonstrated about a minute in a half in this video: That's called "snaking" and it has been in every CoD www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLKOI82ayMBG5-M4q8bhPo-Z1JSjqzck3k. It is well known in the competitive community I tested it myself and what I got was weird. From crouch it appeared to be very smooth on top and bottom. From prone; however, the delay was just absurd. I tested delay coming around corners and it looked pretty smooth to me as well. There was clearly some delay, but it wasn't that extreme. I don't know if it has been quietly patched over or if somebody's test is flawed. I'm going to show this to OBM and see what he says.
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Post by linkinito on Jun 16, 2013 13:04:17 GMT -5
What I really want in Ghosts are things that help objective players to do well. - First thing: a perk ability that prevents opponents from knowing we are taking an objective. You can have every stealth perk you want (eg for MW3: Blind Eye/Assassin/Dead Silence), if you are on an objective, the opponents will know it with "we're losing A/B/C". That's for Domination. The perk/ability that I want is something that prevents opponents from knowing a objective is being capped.
That means: - Enemies are not informed a point is being capped until it's fully capped. - Enemies don't hear the beeps for planting/defusing a bomb, but they'll know instantly when a bomb is planted or defused. - Enemies do not know where the flag carrier is until a UAV is called. - Pro Version : Objective caps/bomb plants and defuses 20% faster.
- Second thing: more emphasis towards objective players. Reward them more. I liked the support strike package, but it was flawed in several ways (lethal killstreaks, people abusing them, constant UAV spam). Actually, if the pointstreak system is kept, I'd like to see cappings in domination being worth 2 points for the main capper, and 1 point for every guy who assists. That would promote the playing of objective.
- Third thing: No MOAB, and especially how it was designed. The 25-kill weapon-only, without taking objectives into account, was the major mistake, as it brings a huge number of people in Domination (as games are longer) because they don't play the objective at all (as they don't need to!) and just rack up kills.
EDIT: New things I thought about.
- Fourth thing: Please, no more laser precise guns and no more Kick proficiency. Weapons should have recoil (well, not in incredible proportions like old PM-9 and Dragunov) and players should simply deal with it. I've seen enough ACR and MP7.
- Fifth thing: C4 shouldn't be a "throwable". It should only be a thing that you could plant on the ground or on the walls, but never throwing it. It just defeats the purpose of grenades.
- Sixth thing: Add a feature where you could see where you being shot from in the statistics (in the back, from the side, from the front). I think many people could be interested to the fact that they are much more killed in the back than they could think. And it could improve the spawn system.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jun 16, 2013 22:21:47 GMT -5
May be I'm the only person here who thinks this but I never saw an issue of Support killstreaks being lethal. They were only really worth using completely in Domination where you're given a leg up with Assault and Specialist streaks due to the pointstreak system. Best way to prevent spam of any streak is to make them pretty hard to get.
I'd agree in having no arrows pointed towards the flag carrier in CTF.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jun 16, 2013 23:20:07 GMT -5
I like the arrow on the carrier in ctf. With a respawn timer in place you cant afford to just guess where he is as he dashes back to the flag. Defense would be a lot harder in what is already a very offensively oriented gametype. I'd disagree with that because of the scoring method. If it was total flags captured then sure. But you can play overly defensive and win. The only people who seem most vocal about lethal streaks in Support are those who were one off their Reaper playing Domination getting butthurt that some noob went 14-47 and killed them. Support was practically useless in TDM. I've seen so many Stealth Bombers get 0 kills that the players calling them in might as well try for a Predator Missile as their highest streak.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jun 17, 2013 0:28:36 GMT -5
i suppose youre right. i still have the mw2 ctf scoring in mind which certainly was just total flags capped. I still disagree that removing that visual indicator would be the best way to address that sort of thing, however. My reason for getting rid of the arrow in CTF is to have more coordination between players in-game by promoting map awareness. As long as it is a delayed arrow, and not done in real-time like the VSAT, then it will never bother me. I usually benefit being the flag carrier as this delay throws off enemies trying to retrieve their flag. I'm aware that having no arrow will promote killwhoring and the needless drawing out of matches, which I don't approve of.
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Post by linkinito on Jun 17, 2013 5:19:24 GMT -5
I think there's a little misunderstanding: the arrow would not appear above the flag carrier only if he's using the "Objective Player" perk I mentioned earlier. Otherwise, the arrow would still appear but its position would be updated every 3 seconds.
Also this perk would be kinda useless in TDM/FFA modes but well, there's no objective except killing in these modes, so nobody would use it in TDM/FFA... This perk would be primarily aimed to people who play modes like Domination, CTF, Sabotage, S&D (would be a must for ninja defusers)...
To talk back about Support Strike package, I even use it in TDM, but mostly with a 4-5 configuration with only UAV and counter-UAV. So I end up throwing around 3 of each in a regular TDM game. I think however that the Support Strike package rewards were kinda easy to obtain. I would have done the list (in MW3) this way:
5 UAV (would reduce a little bit the amount of UAVs in the air with still being very accessible) 5 Airdrop Trap (it isn't really used as players learned to not open an enemy package that's been on the field for a long time) 7 Counter-UAV (would also reduce the amount of UAV-CUAV combos) 7 Ballistic Vests (kinda easy to obtain and to refill) 10 SAM Turret (I'd buff them a little, but 10 is a good amount to clear the skies) 15 Advanced UAV (AUAV = 3x UAV) 15 Recon Drone (the Recon Drone is quite overpowered for the guy who knows how to use it - I mostly use it to piss off Assassins and MOAB-hunters, so putting it up to 15 and in the same tier as AUAV would have been good) 15 Remote Turret (first lethal killstreak if we except the trap) 18 Juggernaut Recon (no change in this) 18 Escort Airdrop (no change in this) 22 Stealth Bomber (will greatly reduce constant stealth bomber spam! Many skilled people use Support especially to spam stealth bombers) 22 EMP (same thing, as getting constantly EMPed is quite annoying - and putting it in the same tier as Stealth Bomber would impose a choice between supporting and killing)
EDIT : Thinking about something completely unrelated to Support Strike Package.
In my opinion, every knife hit should be immediately cancelled if we take a shot. The lunge should be kept (not in incredible proportions like MW2 or too small proportions like BO2), but if we are hit, the knife kill should be denied. There's nothing as frustrating than hitting a guy with 2 bullets and still having him knifing us without any problem. I know it's just a game, but a knife should nearly never win against a gun and should be used only for stealth kills.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jun 17, 2013 9:07:54 GMT -5
Oh yeah, stop making stupid ambient noises to drown out soundwhoring perks. It's a bit pointless them being in the game otherwise. So no stupid dubstep in levels please. It's a poor man's big beat. Mozart is cool though. An annoying part of BO2 are the character shouts. I'm beginning to wonder if the 3arc developers thought it was a good idea to give their characters coprolalia. The Oriental faction never shuts up at times.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jun 17, 2013 10:01:14 GMT -5
Oh yeah, stop making stupid ambient noises to drown out soundwhoring perks. It's a bit pointless them being in the game otherwise. So no stupid dubstep in levels please. It's a poor man's big beat. Mozart is cool though. An annoying part of BO2 are the character shouts. I'm beginning to wonder if the 3arc developers thought it was a good idea to give their characters coprolalia. The Oriental faction never shuts up at times. The shouting is the only thing you can hear of the characters. I definitely agree though, the ambient noise in every map is super annoying.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jun 17, 2013 10:14:10 GMT -5
Oh yeah, stop making stupid ambient noises to drown out soundwhoring perks. It's a bit pointless them being in the game otherwise. So no stupid dubstep in levels please. It's a poor man's big beat. Mozart is cool though. An annoying part of BO2 are the character shouts. I'm beginning to wonder if the 3arc developers thought it was a good idea to give their characters coprolalia. The Oriental faction never shuts up at times. The shouting is the only thing you can hear of the characters. I definitely agree though, the ambient noise in every map is super annoying. It's as if they want people to listen to music or switch all audio off completely. I haven't done any testing but I'm sure the character shouts are louder than previous games. I have played without sound and finished top of the leaderboard a few times never having any apprehension in being outgunned. Add this with the narrow Field of View we have it's easy to kill players I shouldn't be entitled to. I've benefited from this recently but I don't think I enjoy racking up long streaks because of these limitations. And the killcams play sound much louder than what happened in-game I swear. I know they're not accurate but this difference must surely aggravate some players other than me.
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Post by bucket415 on Jun 17, 2013 12:14:28 GMT -5
there was absolutely nothing wrong with lethal killstreaks in the support section. I've never met anyone who ever thought the stealth bomber was good for anything except 10 seconds of area denial. I like the arrow on the carrier in ctf. With a respawn timer in place you cant afford to just guess where he is as he dashes back to the flag. Defense would be a lot harder in what is already a very offensively oriented gametype. It was good for the game giving some scrub a lethal kill streak that would end the current streak of competent players, at no fault of their own. It was bullshit in general. Support = unfair. I'd rather have death streaks than stealth bombers and recon drones.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jun 17, 2013 13:36:38 GMT -5
Support was a really good idea, that suffered from really poor execution.
Some of the streaks were pointless: Airdrop Trap, which required you either throw it in a place where it was obviously a trap, or that you threw it in your own spawn and engineer a spawn flip, and would only work more than once per match against the most legendary of mouth-breathers. SAM Turret, the reward of an extra point towards their streak to enemies who get in your spawn. Advanced UAV, which isn't fooling anyone into thinking it's much better than a normal UAV. Remote Sentry, which you had very little chance of placing anywhere worthwhile. Escort Airdrop, which took days to drop packages, and sat there just waiting for anyone with a Stinger or an LMG to shoot down.
There were streaks that really messed up some gametypes: Ballistic Vests turned Hardcore into Core. EMP made the second half of Domination games extremely annoying.
There were streaks that people found really annoying: Recon Drone was a streak killer, but also was pointless for a good player to use, as the team would benefit more from a good player actually moving around than controlling the Recon Drone. Stealth Bombers led to deaths that felt very arbitrary, and were rarely used tactically. They also provided some really poor incentives in TDM.
Then, of course, there was the UAV and CUAV combo, which would have been great if not for the issue of your entire killstreak setup being countered completely by the most popular perk in tier 2.
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Post by linkinito on Jun 17, 2013 18:46:01 GMT -5
I actually thought about one thing: How about to make TDM games 8 to 10 minutes long without a kill limit? That would actually put the killwhores in Dom into the right mode for them, as they justify their choice to play Dom (without playing the objective) because:
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Post by bucket415 on Jun 17, 2013 19:29:11 GMT -5
No kill limit TDM games would be quit fests.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2013 19:52:10 GMT -5
So no stupid dubstep in levels please. Oh man, they should make a perk like MW2 scrambler where instead of making your map go fuzzy, it converts the enemies audio into dubstep beats.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2013 19:53:40 GMT -5
It was good for the game giving some scrub a lethal kill streak that would end the current streak of competent players, at no fault of their own. It was bullshit in general. Support = unfair. I'd rather have death streaks than stealth bombers and recon drones. Haha, the real scrubs are the people who actually got killed by stealth bombers.
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Post by linkinito on Jun 17, 2013 20:14:54 GMT -5
No kill limit TDM games would be quit fests. Still better than the killwhores in Dom not playing the objective. And just add a penalty for quitting and bam, there you go. (except for joining a game in progress)
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wings
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Post by wings on Jun 18, 2013 0:49:11 GMT -5
It was good for the game giving some scrub a lethal kill streak that would end the current streak of competent players, at no fault of their own. It was bullshit in general. Support = unfair. I'd rather have death streaks than stealth bombers and recon drones. Hardline in Domination means that the Predator Missile required a killstreak of 3 kills. And every kill fully stacked for the next streak. An aggressive player in Domination could just run Hardline with the MP7 and run UAV, IMS, Predator Missile. The Stealth Bomber was so loud that in most cases I could get out of its way quite easily. At least that's not as bad as MW2 where you only needed 8 kills to get 4 care packages.
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Post by linkinito on Jun 18, 2013 8:00:46 GMT -5
Another thing: modify the matchmaking system so it NEVER puts us in a game we just left.
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Spectre
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Post by Spectre on Jun 18, 2013 9:06:46 GMT -5
Mm I personally didn't mind support packages, but tbh they defeat the definition of "point streak". Originally, kill streaks were designed to reward players that were doing better than average in a match, but their limitation was they were... limited to kills. With bo2 I feel that they reward as well people that ptfo. As far as whateverstreaks are concerned I would like a return of the specialist package, and maybe a bit of tweaking of some streak rewards.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2013 13:11:26 GMT -5
Mm I personally didn't mind support packages, but tbh they defeat the definition of "point streak". Originally, kill streaks were designed to reward players that were doing better than average in a match, but their limitation was they were... limited to kills. With bo2 I feel that they reward as well people that ptfo. As far as whateverstreaks are concerned I would like a return of the specialist package, and maybe a bit of tweaking of some streak rewards. The support package was an interesting spin on the "killstreak"; encouraging high SPM styles of play instead of encouraging high KD players beforehand. Unfortunately it also drew in bad players because there was zero risk in choosing the support package. If this concept was ever re-introduced lethal pointstreaks should be gone; specifically the stealth bomber. It would be interesting to see the support streaks change so that there's more risk involved. Instead of having the streak not reset at all on death the pointstreak could decay over time, and having more enemies in the match would make the streak decay faster. Dying would set players back, but not being in the action at all carries an even heftier price. Something like that might work.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jun 18, 2013 15:20:32 GMT -5
Part of Support was encouraging players to play the objective without worrying about losing their streak; having dying set players back undoes this. Having the streak decay due to inactivity is also a bad idea. First, being unable to find anyone is annoying enough, knowing that your streak is actually decreasing because of it would only make it much worse. More importantly, knowing that Support will likely be used more frequently by weaker players due to its nature, streaks decaying over time would give even more incentive to the worst players to play extremely aggressively.
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Spectre
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Post by Spectre on Jun 19, 2013 7:33:38 GMT -5
Mm I personally didn't mind support packages, but tbh they defeat the definition of "point streak". Originally, kill streaks were designed to reward players that were doing better than average in a match, but their limitation was they were... limited to kills. With bo2 I feel that they reward as well people that ptfo. As far as whateverstreaks are concerned I would like a return of the specialist package, and maybe a bit of tweaking of some streak rewards. The support package was an interesting spin on the "killstreak"; encouraging high SPM styles of play instead of encouraging high KD players beforehand. Unfortunately it also drew in bad players because there was zero risk in choosing the support package. If this concept was ever re-introduced lethal pointstreaks should be gone; specifically the stealth bomber. It would be interesting to see the support streaks change so that there's more risk involved. Instead of having the streak not reset at all on death the pointstreak could decay over time, and having more enemies in the match would make the streak decay faster. Dying would set players back, but not being in the action at all carries an even heftier price. Something like that might work. But then again we drift away from the point of having a support package at all.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jun 19, 2013 9:11:42 GMT -5
Mm I personally didn't mind support packages, but tbh they defeat the definition of "point streak". Originally, kill streaks were designed to reward players that were doing better than average in a match, but their limitation was they were... limited to kills. With bo2 I feel that they reward as well people that ptfo. As far as whateverstreaks are concerned I would like a return of the specialist package, and maybe a bit of tweaking of some streak rewards. The support package was an interesting spin on the "killstreak"; encouraging high SPM styles of play instead of encouraging high KD players beforehand. Unfortunately it also drew in bad players because there was zero risk in choosing the support package. If this concept was ever re-introduced lethal pointstreaks should be gone; specifically the stealth bomber. It would be interesting to see the support streaks change so that there's more risk involved. Instead of having the streak not reset at all on death the pointstreak could decay over time, and having more enemies in the match would make the streak decay faster. Dying would set players back, but not being in the action at all carries an even heftier price. Something like that might work. How are you going to measure activity? If you're going by the current setup of SPM then that is flawed as it would further sideline heavy gunners and snipers in this game, unless you make considerable chances to weapon statistics and movement speeds associated with their use. BO2 overly favours CQC as it is.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2013 14:40:54 GMT -5
I don't understand. There's non-lethal streaks that support the team. There's the UAVs, the ballistic vests, the SAM turrets are all still there; THAT is the point of having a support package. Why would introducing a larger risk factor into choosing the support package be so detrimental to the purpose of it?
If these guns can't acquire an SPM comparable to other weapons then they're already being screwed over by the current setup of scorestreaks; they'll have fewer opportunities to build momentum during the match. This is a weapon balancing issue; not a scorestreak issue.
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Spectre
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Post by Spectre on Jun 22, 2013 6:02:02 GMT -5
I don't understand. There's non-lethal streaks that support the team. There's the UAVs, the ballistic vests, the SAM turrets are all still there; THAT is the point of having a support package. Why would introducing a larger risk factor into choosing the support package be so detrimental to the purpose of it? Because it would be like the lethal package with no lethal options and a different risk, which if you ask me is even worse than dying. Then of course I get your idea, which isn't that bad actually but it needs to be implemented differently, gravitating more towards objective play. Like, for instance a device that lets you capture a point in domination faster (hell even boosting the capture speed of nearby teammates) or maybe an anti-bomb kit, which gives you the ability to arm and disarm bombs faster. You know little things like these, not big streaks like UAV or cuav.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2013 18:23:33 GMT -5
I guess it would be interesting if IW/3ARC experimented with stuff like that; be it in the form of equipment, perks, or (maybe) killstreaks. Considering how this proposed model already rewards objective players by handing them points as they would with the current means of scorestreaks, I don't see how or why this system should offer more incentives to focus on playing the objective. If anything the support package in itself is already more than enough for objective players. It may not wipe all the bad guys off the objective like the assault package would, but superior awareness can still turn good players into great ones.
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Spectre
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Post by Spectre on Jun 23, 2013 1:16:45 GMT -5
Nice video. Dumb question: has iw confirmed that there will be multiple packages?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2013 2:12:26 GMT -5
Speaking of non-multiplayer stuff IW has a shot at making their own mini-game that is "not survival mode" this time around. Though my money's on low-risk things like "Spec Ops with grander scale and up to 4 players", or "A slightly refined version of Chaos Mode"; either way it would be nice to see something completely original and interesting here. On second thought, considering how Robert bowling specifically said "No Last Stand" for MW3 we could end up with Survival Mode again.
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