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Post by TheHawkNY on Apr 6, 2015 16:58:26 GMT -5
I'm not super happy with NF the way it is now. It's far too much bullet spongy cheese. I would prefer a battle where I can actually fight it out by running around, taking cover, and engaging dynamically rather than hiding behind a crate/grill/lamp/box, ect... or just finding some way to stay out of range and snipe. I think that should be the primary mode of play in Destniy, going toe to toe with the AI's. (But still using cover, certainly. Just not being married to it.) Problem is even the lowliest of enemies on NF that have shields can be a real bitch and anything at all can kill you seriously fast. I also think lightswitch is over used and I don't like it as a modifier. It takes away the ability to use close quarters which is some of the most fun ways to fight. And since you can't kill things fast enough to keep them off of you or realistically kite them, you have to cheese. Well unless you have really great weapons and the appropriate burn... But meh... Maybe Nightfall is designed for people who have run VoG 50 times and have primary exotics of every element... Although if you do, what's the point in still running the NF? The rewards are more in line with a lower level less decked out Guardian who has a LOT of trouble doing it without cheese, even with a full fireteam, but the difficulty is high enough that by the time it feels fair the rewards are pathetic. Perhaps NF should have two difficulties instead of just one... I think the biggest problem with Crucible is actually the rewards, rather than any of it's other, (many) problems. A lot more people play Iron Banner. Sure some probably just want to bring out their high end gear and wail on lower level players. But there are so many players at the level cap or 1 below it that I don't think that can remotely be the main draw. I think the main draw is the gear. Nearly everything people talk about with regard to Iron Banner has to do with the items and ranking up or how to win or rank up faster, ect... The problem with Crucible is that the rewards are so pathetic that unless you're grinding an exotic bounty it just feels like you're wasting your time when you could have been doing PvE instead. I think the biggest boost Crucible could get to the number of people playing would come from giving it better rewards. (Not that there aren't other things to fix... I just don't think fixing those things alone will bring all that many players into it.) As for HoW... be prepared for massive butthurt. I expect it will be similar to TDB, just a bit different and maybe a tad more content than TDB, just because Bungie wasn't totally happy with TDB's reception and will try to learn from it. Whether the lessons they learned and incorporate will be good or ill is hard to say. I doubt there's much they could really have altered, though. Much of HoW was probably already fairly ingrained into design docs and budgets ect long before the game even released. There's no way Bungie scrapped it and started over. They will have made some changes, and maybe added some extras, but largely it'll be more of the same I think. I expect most of the internets will be disappoint. Personally I have very low expectations so I'll prolly be fine with it. ;3 I agree about Lightswitch. You should try to hop on tonight and do this week's Nightfall - it's actually enjoyable. It's not a lengthy slog, and for once, you can actually use a shotgun.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 6, 2015 22:50:21 GMT -5
How can anyone use the IB as evidence of the crucible being successful? The IB is pretty much this..,."we think your PvP sucks, but if you bribe us well enough, maybe we'll consider...." That's not a testament to good game design, when probably half the players playing are doing so not for fun, but for armor/weapons. And the other half who do IB? These are the people who suck at PvP gaming but likes how Bungie gives them OP buffs to beat down on othr players. Not good.
NF should be like the Deathsinger section of Crota, adjusted for solo play. Difficult, challenging, and nothing to do with bullet sponging
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 7, 2015 3:21:32 GMT -5
I do not agree that the skill gap is that small in raids. Sure, you can finish a raid if you are a noob with the right weapons and right tactics, but "skill" surely is a big factor. I played crota's end hard mode yesterday with a 4 man fire-team, and we only wiped once at the bridge (2nd run) and once at Ir Yut (1st run). We did crota himself flawless both times. These were some of the core players of the +- 15 players I regularly raid with, and the moment we cleared our 2nd run there was no question for me that skill indeed makes a (big) difference. A few weeks ago we were struggling with 6. We have had the same stuff with VOG, sometimes it was taking several hours, but with the right team, I think it never took us longer than an hour. These are the players which have been gaming for several years, and multiple have flawress raider and crota solo on their résumé. While raiding is all about having the right weapons, there surely still is a (pretty big) skill factor involved. How can anyone use the IB as evidence of the crucible being successful? The IB is pretty much this..,."we think your PvP sucks, but if you bribe us well enough, maybe we'll consider...." That's not a testament to good game design, when probably half the players playing are doing so not for fun, but for armor/weapons. And the other half who do IB? These are the people who suck at PvP gaming but likes how Bungie gives them OP buffs to beat down on othr players. Not good. NF should be like the Deathsinger section of Crota, adjusted for solo play. Difficult, challenging, and nothing to do with bullet sponging The single biggest reason I get from players who don't play PvP allot is that the rewards suck in PvP. Most ppl are actually fine with how the gameplay plays. Now turn that around with Iron banner gear and you have allot of ppl playing. Destiny created this environment where nothing seems to be fun without rewards, I feel sad about it, but it is what 90% of the players play it for nowadays. And it is probably Bungies fault it has gotten this far. It is a shame really, because some fun but not rewarding activities (like crusible for me, and allot of other peeps) gets neglected because of nightfall/weekly/raids/daily/bounties resets. So I would like to turn it around, there is actually a decent around of players who enjoy crucible. but because there is no rewards they don't play it, with Iron banner around, they all start to play.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 8:33:14 GMT -5
I think you need to hold the horses there a bit. Reality is, according to Bungie, people don't play Crucible. That is reality. What you are hypothesizing there (adding rewards, brings players).. that's just speculation. You might be right, but for now, you can't say it's true. The biggest problem with your theory is this. Bungie has known that people aren't playing Crucible for months and months now. Yet they have continually NOT changed the reward system for it. Why is that? Bungie knows best here. It would seem safe to say, there is a reason they haven't done so.
Regarding raids and skill.
The problem with the raids is this. I think people confuse skill with pattern memorization. For example, I hear what you are saying with the whole Crota thing. The first time I tried the Abyss section with a full group, we wiped a few times. It was hard. It seemed very difficult and chaotic. Today? I can do it solo over and over and over without dying. And that's without cheesing. Question for you. Am I truly better skilled at this part of the raid now? I don't think so. I think the bulk (over 90%?) of my supposed 'skill improvement' is just knowing enemy AI pattern movements. Run here, run there, stand here, don't get shot, shoot this behind this cover. Done. Finish the raid.
Youutube has pretty much erased most of any skill gaps these days. People watch videos of others, and then simply mimic their moves. Again, simply a pattern memorization. Something that Destiny is mostly about, as most of it's PvE gaming stuff is just that. Know where to stand, where to shoot and just cheese/bullet sponge something to death. I hesitate to call that 'skill', ..it's really not.
The above said, there are some elements where Destiny does get it right. Solo play on raids. I think parts of the Crota raid, when going solo, do require skill. I say this as the shotclock requires players to move about and perform actions under duress. Yes, still a function of pattern memorization, but the shotclock negates it partly. Trying to do the Abyss, Bridge, Thrallway, Deathsinger, and Crota solo....there is skill involved there. But running Crota with a group? Mostly pattern memorization.
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Post by mannon on Apr 7, 2015 9:09:31 GMT -5
I'm with Qupie. Not everybody hates crucible as much as you do IW5k. I don't think the whole beat down on other players because I have leet gear thing is as much a motivator for people to play IB as you do, because there's only so many low level players to have said advantage over, and if you suck at PvP there are plenty of high level and high skilled players in IB who will beat your ass to the ground if you're relying on that crutch. But it really doesn't matter anyway, because for all that you poo poo on it IB is not a skill showcase and never has been.
I'll be honest. From my point of view you have an extremely narrow definition of what multiplayer gameplay should be and everything else is bad for reasons, and apparently most of us who like it are unskilled scrubs to you. So I'm just gonna agree to disagree. Destiny PvP has issues, but as far as I'm concerned it's not nearly as bad as you characterize it. As for everybody else, who knows? It seems fairly polarizing. Most people either enjoy it or don't... but there are people who enjoy it. And there are people for which IB is just an excuse to go play PvP in Destiny and have fun.
I pretty much never play Crucible... almost ever. Why? For one my bounty are always full of PvE bounties. Playing Crucible without bounties is a waste so I'd have to clear my PvE bounties or delete them and waste them... Fuck that. So I already have a disincentive to start playing Crucible. I'm basically only ever going to do it if I happen to clear my PvE bounties and if I decide I'm going to play for enough hours to make it worth picking up the Crucible bounties. That's rare so I don't bother. On top of that the other rewards for Crucible are pathetic as well. So even if I play and have some fun I don't earn anything really. I could have spent the same, limited time doing PvE and at least earning something. It might be as fun if it's something boring or repetitive, but I feel better afterwords. Playing Crucible usually just leaves me feeling kinda hollow. So again... why bother? Now when IB comes around things change. I have a goal to accomplish, items that I want, and I know lots of fresh players will be in there and not just the die hard Crucible players that aren't fun to play against unless you play Crucible 5 hours a day to stay in practice. I like all that. I clear out or delete my PvE bounties and spend the whole week doing IB. I don't care about pwning low level players. I'd be fine with the same kind of more level playing field that you have in regular Crucible. For me it's the event it-self that is the draw.
Is it so hard to imagine that there are people out there like me that enjoy playing the PvP but find vanilla Crucible tedious and a waste of time? On the flip side of course there are people like you who basically hate everything Destiny PvP stands for... almost... And that's fine. To each their own. I just don't care. You can't please everyone. I figure people who don't like Destiny PvP will play CoD or something else instead. You certainly don't have to. I would absolutely like to see some iterative improvements to PvP. I'll agree to that. But I don't like Marko's nuclear solution. PvP is working... not gracefully, but it is working. Bungie should build on it, but continually. Not just a patch every couple of months. But, meh... They have other priorities and the lower PvP player count is probably part of the reason PvP doesn't get more attention.
Anyway, yeah...
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 7, 2015 9:10:18 GMT -5
I think you need to hold the horses there a bit. Reality is, according to Bungie, people don't play Crucible. That is reality. What you are hypothesizing there (adding rewards, brings players).. that's just speculation. Just like what you said about iron banner: The IB is pretty much this..,."we think your PvP sucks, but if you bribe us well enough, maybe we'll consider...." it is the same speculation, only in the other direction. That was my only point. So thank you for confirming it. You might be right, but for now, you can't say it's true. Correct, so please stop saying everybody thinks crucible sucks The biggest problem with your theory is this. Bungie has known that people aren't playing Crucible for months and months now. Yet they have continually NOT changed the reward system for it. Why is that? Bungie knows best here. It would seem safe to say, there is a reason they haven't done so. I see what you are getting at here, but I think it is quite far-fetchedRegarding raids and skill. The problem with the raids is this. I think people confuse skill with pattern memorization. For example, I hear what you are saying with the whole Crota thing. The first time I tried the Abyss section with a full group, we wiped a few times. It was hard. It seemed very difficult and chaotic. Today? I can do it solo over and over and over without dying. And that's without cheesing. Question for you. Am I truly better skilled at this part of the raid now? I don't think so. I think the bulk (over 90%?) of my supposed 'skill improvement' is just knowing enemy AI pattern movements. Run here, run there, stand here, don't get shot, shoot this behind this cover. Done. Finish the raid. I see your point, and while learning the 'tactics' is a big part as well. There is also a part skill. On our second run, our last alive player was not even on the rock during the abyss section... He fell off and couldn't get back on. That is what separates the men from the boys, when your standard tactics didn't works as they should have. And that makes all the difference in a HM raid. As every big mistake will cause a wipe, the ability to absorb these mistakes and still make it through defines the "skill" parameter in this instance IMHO. Our swordbearer died second run, but our bubble titan picked up the sword and we finished crota while enraged. That is skill. Making every movement/shot count. Everybody I raid with knows the patterns, but they don't all have the skill one needs to save some clutch moments. Youutube has pretty much erased most of any skill gaps these days. People watch videos of others, and then simply mimic their moves. Again, simply a pattern memorization. Something that Destiny is mostly about, as most of it's PvE gaming stuff is just that. Know where to stand, where to shoot and just cheese/bullet sponge something to death. I hesitate to call that 'skill', ..it's really not. True, but that is also not what I am talking about. On one instance where our titan had no super to distract I shot my first two rockets at crota, reloaded, switched to my sniper rifle, headshotted the first right boomer, headshotted the second right boomer, and then fired my two rockets at crota. If one of those sniper shots were not spot on, or if they took to much time, there is a very big chance our sword bearer died. Now watching youtube doesn't give you aim/movement skills. The above said, there are some elements where Destiny does get it right. Solo play on raids. I think parts of the Crota raid, when going solo, do require skill. I say this as the shotclock requires players to move about and perform actions under duress. Yes, still a function of pattern memorization, but the shotclock negates it partly. Trying to do the Abyss, Bridge, Thrallway, Deathsinger, and Crota solo....there is skill involved there. But running Crota with a group? Mostly pattern memorization. Soloing the abyss with standing on the rock is actually easier than running through with 6 ppl imho... Soloing has way more to do with pattern learning/tactics than anything else.I would agree with you if you said whether you can finish the raid does not rely on skill, because that is true, sooner or later you will complete it. But the way you complete it, and with what ease/time, is greatly dictated by skill.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 9:25:59 GMT -5
I'm with Qupie. Not everybody hates crucible as much as you do IW5k. I don't think the whole beat down on other players because I have leet gear thing is as much a motivator for people to play IB as you do, because there's only so many low level players to have said advantage over, and if you suck at PvP there are plenty of high level and high skilled players in IB who will beat your ass to the ground if you're relying on that crutch. But it really doesn't matter anyway, because for all that you poo poo on it IB is not a skill showcase and never has been. I'll be honest. From my point of view you have an extremely narrow definition of what multiplayer gameplay should be and everything else is bad for reasons, and apparently most of us who like it are unskilled scrubs to you. So I'm just gonna agree to disagree. Destiny PvP has issues, but as far as I'm concerned it's not nearly as bad as you characterize it. As for everybody else, who knows? It seems fairly polarizing. Most people either enjoy it or don't... but there are people who enjoy it. And there are people for which IB is just an excuse to go play PvP in Destiny and have fun. I don't have any opinions of your skills. It's really not my business. But why can't I have an opinion of the Crucible? And the randoms I PLAY WITH? My experiences are bad. Setting aside the lag,.... when I play a game of Crucible, like my last few games I did ( a few weeks ago)...in every one of them, I routinely see 1/2 of my teammates with zero or one zone caps...it makes me annoyed. And when I routinely pass these players up while heading to a zone, while they snipe near the back (or sit in corners crouching with shotguns...how can I NOT call them scrubs? They are. And they are d1ckheads for polluting the game mode I play (and so is Bungie for allowing them to do it) And I mostly played Control, because that's the only mode Bungie offered in IB. I don't mean to insult everyone. But when Destiny's own developers say that only like 15% of the player base goes into Crucible, something isn't working right. And imho, it's ok to complain. If everyone sucks Bungie's dicks, telling the developers that everything is just awesome, no fixes will ever be made. And imho, a lot of fixes need to be made. Even down to the IB, with how IB just uses the 'control' game mode as it's only mode...and how the challenges tend to work against playing to win. Even there, a huge clusterfvck of a screw up by Bungie. I'm not supposed to criticize that? And just blindly nuthug them? I don't think my opinion of a proper IB is 'narrow'. Bungie tells us to play to win...then turns around and allows all that garbage into the game. IMHO, my complaints are valid.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 7, 2015 9:41:16 GMT -5
I'm with Qupie. Not everybody hates crucible as much as you do IW5k. I don't think the whole beat down on other players because I have leet gear thing is as much a motivator for people to play IB as you do, because there's only so many low level players to have said advantage over, and if you suck at PvP there are plenty of high level and high skilled players in IB who will beat your ass to the ground if you're relying on that crutch. But it really doesn't matter anyway, because for all that you poo poo on it IB is not a skill showcase and never has been. I'll be honest. From my point of view you have an extremely narrow definition of what multiplayer gameplay should be and everything else is bad for reasons, and apparently most of us who like it are unskilled scrubs to you. So I'm just gonna agree to disagree. Destiny PvP has issues, but as far as I'm concerned it's not nearly as bad as you characterize it. As for everybody else, who knows? It seems fairly polarizing. Most people either enjoy it or don't... but there are people who enjoy it. And there are people for which IB is just an excuse to go play PvP in Destiny and have fun. I don't have any opinions of your skills. It's really not my business. But why can't I have an opinion of the Crucible? And the randoms I PLAY WITH? My experiences are bad. Setting aside the lag,.... when I play a game of Crucible, like my last few games I did ( a few weeks ago)...in every one of them, I routinely see 1/2 of my teammates with zero or one zone caps...it makes me annoyed. And when I routinely pass these players up while heading to a zone, while they snipe near the back (or sit in corners crouching with shotguns...how can I NOT call them scrubs? They are. And they are d1ckheads for polluting the game mode I play (and so is Bungie for allowing them to do it) And I mostly played Control, because that's the only mode Bungie offered in IB. I don't mean to insult everyone. But when Destiny's own developers say that only like 15% of the player base goes into Crucible, something isn't working right. And imho, it's ok to complain. If everyone sucks Bungie's dicks, telling the developers that everything is just awesome, no fixes will ever be made. And imho, a lot of fixes need to be made. Even down to the IB, with how IB just uses the 'control' game mode as it's only mode...and how the challenges tend to work against playing to win. Even there, a huge clusterfvck of a screw up by Bungie. I'm not supposed to criticize that? And just blindly nuthug them? I don't think my opinion of a proper IB is 'narrow'. Bungie tells us to play to win...then turns around and allows all that garbage into the game. IMHO, my complaints are valid. Well I can't disagree with the things you stated here, because there is nothing absolutely wrong or hyperbole in there. Which is why I won't disagree with you. Sure, 1/2 players a game don't play the objective. Welcome in the world of FPS. That is something completely different from stating: "I can't get through even a single Destiny PvP game without seeing half the players crouch walking in corners with shotguns, or hiding in obscure corners sniping, both sides doing anything and everything to avoid playing the objective." The fact is that stating things like: Everybody thinks crucible sucks, and every player is a scrub, or destiny rewards bad play. That is just bullshit, because it is not true, or at least cannot be concluded from the information we have at this point. That is why I "defend the developers" in your opinion. It has nothing to do with defending the game, it has something to do with rectifying completely misplaced conclusions. It IS okay to complaint, hell, I did my part of complaining on these boards. But lets keep the facts strait.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 7, 2015 9:50:56 GMT -5
Bungie knows best? If you're applying that logic to rewards for Crucible then why not to all the other things you don't like about it? They haven't changed those things either...
As for skill... Why, exactly, isn't that skill? There are lots of different kinds of skill. Some are harder to learn than others. Some are more physical, more mental. Some are more finesse and others are pretty blunt... Skill is pretty fucking amorphous. I'm not gonna get into that. I think it's mostly BS. I also don't think Youtube is the end all be all of Destiny. I don't think that everyone playing Destiny is doing nothing but watching youtube and copying other players. There is a lot of that, particularly for raids, bosses, and farming. But then most players still haven't even played the raids. The truth is most players are not the hardcore tryhards. Most players have not hit the level cap. The vast majority of players in Destiny... are casuals... and we may watch some Youtube here and there, but by and large we mostly just jump in and fend for ourselves until we hit a something difficult or tedious.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 9:51:59 GMT -5
I don't believe I said 'EVERY' player is a scrub. If I did, that was just exaggerating for effect.
And as far as 'facts'? Destiny's IB does indeed reward bad gameplay. That is a fact. It allows gross mismatches due to leveling differences for starters. That is encouraging bad gameplay, watching some level 32 player stomp down a few underequipped opponents, solely because he is level 32. Not good gameplay. How can anyone say that is good? And the challenges? Get headshots? Get LMG headshots? Most of the challenges in IB are not geared to the game mode being used. And i'll be blunt, this would be a ridiculously easy fix to make, making ALL the challenges relate to the control game mode. Does Bungie do this. No.
Playing the objective versus kill-whoring is a long standing problem in FPSers, on that I agree. I have b1tched heavily about this in CoD. And CoD has responded over the years, implanting tons of subtle and not so subtle changes.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 9:53:49 GMT -5
Bungie knows best? If you're applying that logic to rewards for Crucible then why not to all the other things you don't like about it? They haven't changed those things either... As for skill... Why, exactly, isn't that skill? There are lots of different kinds of skill. Some are harder to learn than others. Some are more physical, more mental. Some are more finesse and others are pretty blunt... Skill is pretty Foxtroting amorphous. I'm not gonna get into that. I think it's mostly BS. I also don't think Youtube is the end all be all of Destiny. I don't think that everyone playing Destiny is doing nothing but watching youtube and copying other players. There is a lot of that, particularly for raids, bosses, and farming. But then most players still haven't even played the raids. The truth is most players are not the Touch Football smart players. Most players have not hit the level cap. The vast majority of players in Destiny... are casuals... and we may watch some Youtube here and there, but by and large we mostly just jump in and fend for ourselves until we hit a something difficult or tedious. I don't know a single Destiny player that hasn't watched a Destiny video on how to do something.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 7, 2015 9:59:46 GMT -5
That's not a testament to good game design, when probably half the players playing are doing so not for fun, but for armor/weapons. And the other half who do IB? These are the people who suck at PvP gaming but likes how Bungie gives them OP buffs to beat down on othr players. Not good. Here you described 100% of IB players as either just grinding for loot and having no fun or being scrubs, hence my response.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 7, 2015 10:01:05 GMT -5
I don't believe I said 'EVERY' player is a scrub. If I did, that was just exaggerating for effect. And as far as 'facts'? Destiny's IB does indeed reward bad gameplay. That is a fact. It allows gross mismatches due to leveling differences for starters. That is encouraging bad gameplay, watching some level 32 player stomp down a few underequipped opponents, solely because he is level 32. Not good gameplay. While that is your oppinion, I haven't completely formed an oppinion on that matter, as I never actually noticed anything like that. I have always been 31 at least in IB. Other than that, it is exactly what players wanted! And how it was advertised. In crucible your hard earned gear doesn't count, in IB it does! It is what players whined about in 1.0. So bad game design? I don't think so. That would state that every PvP game with a leveling system which influences your health/damage is bad game design?
Designing a game where level matters, in a way that level actually matters, for a game mode which you advertised for your level to matter, is not bad game design. It is doing what you are saying...How can anyone say that is good? And the challenges? Get headshots? Get LMG headshots? Most of the challenges in IB are not geared to the game mode being used. And i'll be blunt, this would be a ridiculously easy fix to make, making ALL the challenges relate to the control game mode. Does Bungie do this. No. True, I won't argue with you that different bounties would be better. While I am not bothered that it is not objective based (as most players already PTFO in IB), I do think it is a shame they are the same every single day. Playing the objective versus kill-whoring is a long standing problem in FPSers, on that I agree. I have b1tched heavily about this in CoD. And CoD has responded over the years, implanting tons of subtle and not so subtle changes.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 10:06:28 GMT -5
Is it what the players wanted? Bungie said only 15% of them do the Crucible/IB.
People complained about the first IB, because how it worked, was COMPLETELY opposite of what Bungie advertised. If IB had originally been set up as a SBMM type of pro league thing...and then something else was delivered, people would have complained on that too. So I'm not so sure, you can take those complaints....as support for how the IB works now.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 7, 2015 10:08:14 GMT -5
So you think a game where your level influences the amount of damage you deal/take is a bad game? Why did you buy a FPS/RPG mix to begin with?
The 15% has nothing to do with this, just an example for bringing up things which has absolutely nothing to do with the argument itself. The player base complained, Bungie reacted. Hell, if there was only a player base of 10 players, they should have still reacted to their opinion. (by changing it (like they did), or by explaining why it is what it is)
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Post by mannon on Apr 7, 2015 10:08:20 GMT -5
But how many Destiny players have watched videos on how to do everything? Just because I've watched a video or a few doesn't mean I've studiously researched every facet of the game and everything I do is nothing but copying other players. There is some over reliance on it, but then there's a lot of people just going out and playing, which is 99% of what I do.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 10:15:04 GMT -5
So you think a game where your level influences the amount of damage you deal/take is a bad game? Why did you buy a FPS/RPG mix to begin with? I didn't buy Destiny for the PvP. I also didn't say leveling stuff makes for a 'bad game'. You are putting words in my mouth. I said the IB features bad gameplay. I believe this to be true. IB is supposed to be about this big test of skills. I personally don't think dumping 50% nerfs on people's abilities, solely because of a piece of armor they wear, is creating good PvP gaming. One level 32 player can singlehandedly wipe out an entire opposing team of level 25's and such. How is that 'good gaming'? How is having 20,000 to 5,000 game results good gaming? It's not. Same with the challenges. And yes, I'm sure the above process strokes some player's egos. Making them feel badass because their Level 32 armor stomped down dozens of people, who couldn't even fire back....but that's a separate matter, that has nothing to do with good, quality gaming.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 7, 2015 10:19:14 GMT -5
IB is not and never was a test of skills.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 10:20:56 GMT -5
But how many Destiny players have watched videos on how to do everything? Just because I've watched a video or a few doesn't mean I've studiously researched every facet of the game and everything I do is nothing but copying other players. There is some over reliance on it, but then there's a lot of people just going out and playing, which is 99% of what I do. My only point is that YouTube makes Destiny's skill requirements lower. You might only watch a few videos. Ok. But if you are in a Raid group, and one person has watched stuff religiously....you now all benefit from that YouTube viewing process.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 10:21:30 GMT -5
IB is not and never was a test of skills. I didn't have time to google what the actual definition is. I'm sure someone will correct me soon enough.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 7, 2015 10:28:06 GMT -5
So you think a game where your level influences the amount of damage you deal/take is a bad game? Why did you buy a FPS/RPG mix to begin with? I didn't buy Destiny for the PvP. I also didn't say leveling stuff makes for a 'bad game'. You are putting words in my mouth. You should read again, I have chosen my words really carefull. I said the IB features bad gameplay. I believe this to be true. IB is supposed to be about this big test of skills. Now I finally see where it goes wrong... where was this supposed again? IB is all about gear, not skill. There was never a doubt about that. I personally don't think dumping 50% nerfs on people's abilities, solely because of a piece of armor they wear, is creating good PvP gaming. One level 32 player can singlehandedly wipe out an entire opposing team of level 25's and such. How is that 'good gaming'? How is that relevant? LVL 26 players are looking for a shortcut through the leveling system, they should be having a hard time in a game mode designed to take gear/lvl into account. Other than that, how many lvl 26 have you actually seen? I never see them, and I sure as hell never saw a team full of lvl 26's. There are actually very very little low levels in iron banner, and they don't belong there. It is like saying crota's end HM is too hard with 6 lvl 30: that is bad game design... How is having 20,000 to 5,000 game results good gaming? It's not. Same with the challenges. And yes, I'm sure the above process strokes some player's egos. Making them feel badass because their Level 32 armor stomped down dozens of people, who couldn't even fire back....but that's a separate matter, that has nothing to do with good, quality gaming. Seems like this above all is your problem. Being killed by higher levels in an unfair way, because you wanted to take that shortcut. I really think there are not allot of players who get a hard on from killing an lvl 27 in IB... I think that in at least 95% (yeah I did pull that number out of my ass) of the IB encounters, level doesn't really influence the outcome from a gun fight.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 7, 2015 10:32:15 GMT -5
But how many Destiny players have watched videos on how to do everything? Just because I've watched a video or a few doesn't mean I've studiously researched every facet of the game and everything I do is nothing but copying other players. There is some over reliance on it, but then there's a lot of people just going out and playing, which is 99% of what I do. My only point is that YouTube makes Destiny's skill requirements lower. You might only watch a few videos. Ok. But if you are in a Raid group, and one person has watched stuff religiously....you now all benefit from that YouTube viewing process. True, it does lower the amount of "planning/tactical" skill required. But some clutch moments are still dependent of the (movement, aim, improvising) skill of your players. And in the end, I think that is the difference between an normal raid group, and a good raid group.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 10:37:06 GMT -5
IB is all about gear, not skill. There was never a doubt about that. Ok. If that's the case (I personally don't recall the exact definitions from last September)...it's only about the gear you have, then how is that good PvP gaming? Worse yet, why even have an IB? Why not just reward the highest level players with automatic prizes, save us all dozens of hours of playing, and just be done with it. After all, the only thing that matters is the gear. Lv 32 > Lv 31, > Lv 30, etc... You mentioned definitions in prior threads....can you show me where Bungie has said that underleveled players are shortcutting or cheating the system, by playing? You talk about me making bold comments? You have NEVER seen a level 26 or lower player in the IB? Seriously? 'NEVER' ? I have. Many, many, many of them.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 10:46:13 GMT -5
Seems like this above all is your problem. Being killed by higher levels in an unfair way, because you wanted to take that shortcut. I really think there are not allot of players who get a hard on from killing an lvl 27 in IB... I think that in at least 95% (yeah I did pull that number out of my ass) of the IB encounters, level doesn't really influence the outcome from a gun fight. Uh, no. No problem. I have done a few IB's. I have done two with level 32 characters. And I did one with a new character, that started out level 21? Did most of the IB well below level 30, to completion. In all three, there wasn't a huge material time difference in getting things completed. The underleveled Hunter probably took a few extra hours, and suffered a lot more deaths, but that's about it. Of the three attempts, the under-leveled Hunter was probably my least annoying. I also didn't view that Hunter attempt as taking a 'shortcut'. That's absurd. How is that a shortcut? Compared to what? A longcut? Bungie didn't put restrictions on who can enter the IB. You want to play at level 21? Knock yourself out, you'll just not be able to kill most all players. Level most certainly does influence the gunfights. Try playing the IB as a level 21. A level 24. A level 27. You won't be saying that comment. Even a 10% nerf is huge in a FPSer.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 7, 2015 10:47:44 GMT -5
IB is all about gear, not skill. There was never a doubt about that. Ok. If that's the case (I personally don't recall the exact definitions from last September)...it's only about the gear you have, then how is that good PvP gaming? Worse yet, why even have an IB? Why not just reward the highest level players with automatic prizes, save us all dozens of hours of playing, and just be done with it. After all, the only thing that matters is the gear. Lv 32 > Lv 31, > Lv 30, etc... Lol, just lolYou mentioned definitions in prior threads....can you show me where Bungie has said that underleveled players are shortcutting or cheating the system, by playing? You know perfectly what I mean. If this is not shortcutting, what is? I am saying I blame you for it, hell, I even tried to support you back in the day. But is it a shortcut? yes it is.You talk about me making bold comments? You have NEVER seen a level 26 or lower player in the IB? Seriously? 'NEVER' ? I have. Many, many, many of them. Might be because you were 26 yourself then, because I really never saw any. I am not paying attention to lvl's in iron banner though. But all I saw was 90+% 31/32, a few 29-30 and that is it.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 10:49:37 GMT -5
I don't believe you have never seen a player below level 26. Sorry, don't believe you.
How is playing a lower level character in the IB taking a 'shortcut'? Please explain this.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 7, 2015 10:57:18 GMT -5
Nobody said it is ONLY about the gear. Why is everything black or white? Iron Banner from the very first one in beta... well before release... has been about "gear matters". Not nothing but gear matters, just that your gear does matter. Why have IB... because IB <> Crucible. Crucible is your (more or less) level playing field. It's always available. The rewards suck, but it's there.
Iron Banner has always been "bring your good gear and if you don't have good gear suck it up and go get some or don't whine about it"... Iron Banner is all about taking all of that time and effort that people put into building up their PvE characters and arsenals and letting them wail on each other with all the benefits. Does it mean lower level players have a tougher time... well sheaaahh! But nobody forced them to play it. Iron Banner is all about enjoying all the rewards you built up for yourself in a PvP setting oh and it's fully consensual. If you want a skill based contest of skill.... stop talking about Iron Banner... because that isn't it, never was it, won't ever be it. That is the exact, complete, antithesis of what Iron Banner has been advertised as being from the very start, from before launch... period.
Iron Banner is a hybrid event that falls somewhere between PvE and PvP. It's PvP combat with PvE(ish) rewards and balance. Bungie cut back on how much your gear mattered and people were understandibly upset, because that was not what was advertised.
The more skill balanced version of PvP is always available... it's just dull and unrewarding.
As for the other stuff. I don't think we need a Bungie approved definition of shortcut. Level 26 players can definitely benefit by getting IB gear quickly rather than getting vanguard items. That's a shortcut. I wouldn't call it cheating or disparage it. Shortcut is a neutral term as far as I'm concerned.
Personally I've seen some level 26 players in IB. I wouldn't say I have seen many, many, many of them. I've seen FAR more 32's and 31's.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Apr 7, 2015 11:24:52 GMT -5
A few comments after skimming through the recent debates (did not read every word so pardon me if I missed important points): 1) We have been having a never ending debate on Crucible on this forum. Everybody has opinions based on their own preference, and we are at a point that no one can convince others ; 2) On Crucible, there are a few things that we can agree here: a) the majority of the people only play it for the loot. Very few people enjoy playing it just for the PvP experience alone, like many of us have done in the past games, like CoD, Halo, Titanfall; b) people do enjoy IB more than Crucible. Loot is the primary factor, level/damage/defense do matter is also a significant factor; What we have been disagreeing on is that whether this state of affair is good enough for Destiny. IMHO it is not and an opportunity lost, but there are enough people think it is good enough for a PvE focused investment game. Among these games, you can actually say Destiny's PvP is a success in terms of player engagement. 3) I did hear friends (the few who are playing PvP) say that they like the "Inferno" version of the Crucible better, because of significantly less BS deaths. I have been wanting to try it out, but have gotten busy at work in the past weeks and haven't had much time to play games. 4) On Raid, we also have disagreements. IMHO: a) In terms of quality CE is a significant step down from VoG; b) I think VoG is quite "skill based". It was a great challenge to me for several months up until I reached level 32 (and of course it helps that the friends I play with are level 32 as well with several Gjallarhorns; . I can honestly say that some players are more skilled than I am when playing the raid, and I am more skilled than some other players. Even today I can't say that I am any good at using the relic during the Templar phase; c) It's reasonable to expect that HoW will be better than CE and at the least at VoG level. I am even expecting it better than VoG because there are lots of lessons for Bungie to learn from the first 2 raid experiences, as well as having more time to incorporate brilliant ideas from raids in other games; One thing I think that we can all agree is that Raid is the crown jewel Destiny and the continued success of the game is largely dependent on Bungie's ability to make Raids. 5) Are there any other things that Bungie can do to make Destiny more successful? Plenty. It is clear that Bungie can't add content based on the existing formula fast enough to keep players from feeling bored. What they can do though is to alter the formula to increase replay value: more interesting NF (more raid-like design, modifier variety, etc), more attractive PvP experience, new types of content (e.g.: firefight mode), etc.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 11:34:12 GMT -5
I would agree that VoG was more skill based than Crota. The best reason I could give for this, was the element of the teleportation that went on. How the VoG kind of reshuffled the deck a bit after each Atheon attack. This forced players out of patterns, out of position, and into more skill based reactions. Crota? Crota's end boss stuff was mostly pattern following, with very little individual gun/skill based actions. Rotate to a ledge. Shoot rockets. Avoid death and go hide for a minute. Other than the swordcarrier, most of Crota was just that type of pattern following. The only real skill, was in remembering what pattern to follow. I think that's a fair assessment? Even on hard mode, it seemed like most of the difficulty after a while, was just related to trying to avoid dumb bad-luck with glitching.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Apr 8, 2015 8:48:05 GMT -5
I don't believe I said 'EVERY' player is a scrub. If I did, that was just exaggerating for effect. And as far as 'facts'? Destiny's IB does indeed reward bad gameplay. That is a fact. It allows gross mismatches due to leveling differences for starters. That is encouraging bad gameplay, watching some level 32 player stomp down a few underequipped opponents, solely because he is level 32. Not good gameplay. How can anyone say that is good? And the challenges? Get headshots? Get LMG headshots? Most of the challenges in IB are not geared to the game mode being used. And i'll be blunt, this would be a ridiculously easy fix to make, making ALL the challenges relate to the control game mode. Does Bungie do this. No. Playing the objective versus kill-whoring is a long standing problem in FPSers, on that I agree. I have b1tched heavily about this in CoD. And CoD has responded over the years, implanting tons of subtle and not so subtle changes. The "20 headshots with a primary" bounty has a few purposes: it encourages players to play a certain number of games per day to complete it; discourages players from running around using only a shotgun; it reiterates to players unfamiliar with Crucible the value of headshots. The LMG headshots bounty reiterates the value of heavy ammo (fun fact - most players, even the ones I play with, still don't get it), and discourages players from using rocket launchers (which most players find annoying). Seems to me like they put a lot more thought into them than you are giving them credit for.
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