mannon
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Post by mannon on May 7, 2015 12:56:02 GMT -5
I thought they were matching good connections to good connections and bad ones to bad ones?
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on May 7, 2015 13:44:24 GMT -5
I thought they were matching good connections to good connections and bad ones to bad ones? Is that true? I have yet to see a reveal on that. Regardless, I think that all the bros here can agree that Destiny PvP is not very good at handling lags. In general, despite the fact that I am now more warmed up to the idea of playing Crucible, I have the following problems about it which I don't think that will be addressed any time soon (not even the comet release this year): 1) 30 FPS; 2) No dedicated server support whatsoever; Combined, these 2 make it almost impossible for the game to handle lags well. In an IB play session I had last week, I have like 5-10 kill-trade in a roll. That's insane. The game still feels more playable that a CoD game with bad lag only because it has longer TTKs. Unlike the casual tone of gameplay from other PvP game modes, ToO is going to be intensive and ultra competitive. As a result, it is disappointing that Bungie is not adding the following to the formula: 3) No visible skill ranks and structured skill based matchmaking; It would have been great if ToO starts your team with easier opponents but gives increasingly tougher ones as you get closer and closer to 9 wins. Sure, this would interfere with the goals of getting loot, which I agree. In that case, maybe PoE can have two different arenas: a "casual" one for loot, and a "competitive" one for glory (with glory defined by a visible CSR - competitive skill ranks + tier - Iron / Bronze / Gold / Diamond / etc). I know that most of the bros won't agree with me on the importance of 3, and it is probably quite surprising (even to myself) that a mediocre PvP players like me would care this much about "skill ranks". The main reason for me to start liking the idea is from my very positive experience of playing Halo 5 beta: having a highly competitive arena for players with different skill levels to fight in, with a decent SBMM to match players to their peers (in terms of skills), is a great formula for competitive fun. If you play tennis (or any competitive sports as a hobby), you'll agree that USTA's rating based leagues is a great way for players at all levels to enjoy the activity. In such a system, I don't care about getting to a high rank / tier for glory. I just enjoy a competitive environment where I play with and against players at my skill level. The level of intensity is so thick that you could cut through it with a knife.
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Post by iw5000 on May 7, 2015 13:52:51 GMT -5
Long TTK's do hide lag very very very well.
But Destiny is a much laggier game than AW. No doubt.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on May 7, 2015 14:12:38 GMT -5
Actually I'm with you on SBMM. I remember playing Halo 2 and focusing on trying to raise my ranking. I think SBMM helps casual players as well because it gates off players that hopelessly outplay you to play with people closer to their own skill level. That's highly beneficial to both sides IMO unless you're someone that just likes to pubstomp newbs.
I don't think we'll see much of it in Destiny, though, because they did have some under the hood SBMM they implemented briefly not long after launch and almost immediately disabled because it was slowing down matchmaking. Unfortunately I think Destiny PvP currently has too few players to make SBMM viable without long waits. Maybe the coming changes will help reverse that. Also, I don't see why it has to be all or nothing. If wait times get too high or population too low it could just disable SBMM temporarily.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on May 7, 2015 14:25:08 GMT -5
Actually I'm with you on SBMM. I remember playing Halo 2 and focusing on trying to raise my ranking. I think SBMM helps casual players as well because it gates off players that hopelessly outplay you to play with people closer to their own skill level. That's highly beneficial to both sides IMO unless you're someone that just likes to pubstomp newbs. I don't think we'll see much of it in Destiny, though, because they did have some under the hood SBMM they implemented briefly not long after launch and almost immediately disabled because it was slowing down matchmaking. Unfortunately I think Destiny PvP currently has too few players to make SBMM viable without long waits. Maybe the coming changes will help reverse that. Also, I don't see why it has to be all or nothing. If wait times get too high or population too low it could just disable SBMM temporarily. I am pretty sure that Destiny has hidden SBMM. Many of us have noticed that when playing IB, more often than not we were matched with easier opponents solo vs. partied up. At least for a mediocre player like me it is pretty obvious, and it totally makes sense because my friends almost always have stronger skill numbers than I do. That's not quite enought for me though. What I am looking for is a structured platform where skills are somewhat visible, similar to tennis' USTA rating. If I am a USTA 3.0 player, I know that I am matched with other 3.0 players. Same goes for players at 5.0. Both 3.0 players and 5.0 players can enjoy the game competitively almost equally, because the system (USTA in this analogy) is making sure of that. If you are a 5.0 player pretending to be 3.0 player so you can crash your opponents, USTA has a system in place to catch and suspend you. I was not expecting Destiny to have something like that because of its generally casual tone and the loot focused nature. But now ToO is coming up and it is at the other end of the spectrum: a game mode that is designed to be ultra competitive. Not having the above somewhat defeated its design goal, at least partially. If it turns out to be popular, maybe by Destiny 2.0 my wishes can come true. Meanwhile I have Halo 5 coming in October to hope for.
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Post by iw5000 on May 7, 2015 14:48:04 GMT -5
The problem Witty is this.
What is skill?
Most people are playing Crucible, when the IB is going on. And when that is happening, it's always the Control game mode. And in regards to people playing this mode, what exactly is skill? I would venture a guess 9 out of 10 games, the top 2 players are almost always the two players who have the fewest caps. They're just playing for kills. And while you have to get kills to win control, typically these top scorers aren't going a 2 to 1 ratio, to make up the point differential if down 2 to 1 in flags. If you have one flag all game, doesn't matter if you go 25-16. You lose.
So how are you going to define skill? Destiny's Control sucks in that regard. Bounties like the LMG headshots do nothing to help either.
IMHO, the douchebaggery in Destiny is 10x worse than CoD ever was. With CoD's fast TTK's, one person could swing a match. With Destiny's supers, shields, that kind of stuff, one person cannot win 1 v 3 battles as easily. So you are screwed.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on May 7, 2015 14:54:48 GMT -5
There might be some. I can't recall what they said, but it seems like what they said was that they drastically toned down the SBMM. Or it may be some other factor like preferring to match fireteams against fireteams... which I think is a thing or will be a thing. I dunno. There's not much information on the matchmaking.
I would love to have visible rankings. That was part of what I loved about the Halo 2 system. It felt good when you'd rank up. I'm not familiar with the Tennis thing, but I think it's probably a fairly standard system. I'm guessing it's similar at least superficially to the way they do chess... which I used to know, but have forgotten. heh (I only got to know anything about it because Laser Squad Nemesis had a system loosly based on it.) There were no suspensions for mismatched games, but the lower ranked player could win more points off the higher ranked player if they actually won.
We'll see how it goes. Maybe ToO wills shake things up.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on May 7, 2015 14:55:49 GMT -5
The problem Witty is this. What is skill? Most people are playing Crucible, when the IB is going on. And when that is happening, it's always the Control game mode. And in regards to people playing this mode, what exactly is skill? I would venture a guess 9 out of 10 games, the top 2 players are almost always the two players who have the fewest caps. They're just playing for kills. And while you have to get kills to win control, typically these top scorers aren't going a 2 to 1 ratio, to make up the point differential if down 2 to 1 in flags. If you have one flag all game, doesn't matter if you go 25-16. You lose. So how are you going to define skill? Destiny's Control sucks in that regard. Bounties like the LMG headshots do nothing to help either. IMHO, the douchebaggery in Destiny is 10x worse than CoD ever was. With CoD's fast TTK's, one person could swing a match. With Destiny's supers, shields, that kind of stuff, one person cannot win 1 v 3 battles as easily. So you are screwed. I totally agree that control is not an ultra competitive game mode, precisely for reasons you listed. That's why I never expected Destiny to have a USTA-like system until ToO is revealed. ToO on the other hand, is a much more "competition-friendly" game mode, because: 1) A strong player have the chance to carry an entire team; 2) The excitement of clutch play (say 1 v 3); 3) 3v3 requires great team work; That's what gives me hope. Just to be clear though, I don't see my wish come true any time soon, because of the poor lag management, largely due to 30FPS and no dedicated servers. Again, Halo 5 is a lot more exciting because it is going to be 60FPS on dedicated servers. If its lag management can be decent enough (which Titanfall and Halo 5 beta has proved to be entirely doable, and Halo by nature is going to have a much easier time due to long TTK). Destiny ToO definitely has the potential. If it is popular enough, Bungie may make a sincere effort towards the direction of "e-sports" (unlikely at this point but possible). In that case, it might open up the game more on the PvP side. A Destiny game with strong PvP appeal is a game that I can believe in to have enough life in it to last for 10 years. PvE by itself with doubts on Bungie's ability to build raids on the other hand, is in serious danger of losing steam even right now.
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Post by iw5000 on May 8, 2015 8:04:13 GMT -5
I think in the near term, what kills Destiny's ESports thing are the things you mentioned. 30FPS. But..what also kills it is no LAN support. There are no private lobby/LAN setup options in the menu. A few years ago, one of the CoD games came out this way and MLG immediately removed it from the circuit. You have to have that option, for MLG stuff to work. Destiny doesn't have it. So it's physically impossible right now.
Some people on this board think Crucible IB works fine now. I don't. The whole freebie loss coin you get, pretty much makes playing to win irrelevant. Especially with all the Challenge bounties, most of which have nothing to do with winning. I'll take 40 pts for losing, if I can get three bounties done much faster. So most all players just run around fussing with that stuff. And that would be fine, making IB an event of solo exploiting douchebaggery....but Bungie keeps insisting on using the Control game mode to do it. Which is an objective game.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on May 8, 2015 9:09:00 GMT -5
I certainly have fun in Iron Banner. I dunno if I'd say it works just fine. There are issues. I think there is definitely too much emphasis on completing bounties than getting wins, because that's where a huge amount of your IB rep comes from, and as said the gap between a win and a loss isn't that big. The bounties definitely need to be changed. For one the MG headshots thing sucks. I always wind up only using MG's instead of rockets because of it, and I'm tired of that. But I gotta do those bounties. Getting rep on wins alone takes too long. You really can't ignore the bounties unless you just don't care. But we also need the coins or you get the situation we started with where people just dropped games they weren't winning. Either you give people an incentive to keep playing a losing game or just build in a concede feature. Games are short, though and being able to concede might be exploitable, so I don't see that happening.
Mainly change the bounties as you've suggested many many times. Make the majority of them based on wins and the objective. I think we should have more variety too. If you are gonna have the MG bounty give us a RL bounty and swap them out or something.
Having said that, personally I don't see control as purely an objective game type. It really seems to be a hybrid between TDM and a capture point objective mode. I really like that, personally. It means the objective matters, but so do kills and deaths. Having some bounties based on kills seems fine to me, but not so damn many. Give us some X wins in a row or some things.
Maybe winning should carry some additional bonus as well. hmm... I know... How about glimmer. IB always forces us to glimmer farm. Give the winning team a glimmer prize. Incentivise winning and team play without incentivising dropping losing games.
Having said that. Iron Banner is never going to be a major competitive mode. It's really just a big grind event for loot. ToO sounds much more like a competition minded type of thing. Here's hoping it proves out.
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wings
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Post by wings on May 8, 2015 9:14:34 GMT -5
Destiny does have SBMM as it takes into account your combat rating.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on May 8, 2015 9:21:06 GMT -5
Would be nice if it was a visible stat.
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Post by iw5000 on May 8, 2015 9:46:10 GMT -5
It would be so easy to make the bounties more connected to the game mode itself. And have everyone playing the same game. Ridiculously easy. But this is something Bungie doesn't give a shit about, or even has looked into. It's not on the radar. They just keep using the same one's over and over.
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Post by iw5000 on May 8, 2015 10:09:17 GMT -5
Having said that, personally I don't see control as purely an objective game type. It really seems to be a hybrid between TDM and a capture point objective mode. I really like that, personally. It means the objective matters, but so do kills and deaths. Having some bounties based on kills seems fine to me, but not so gosh darn golly gee whiz many. Give us some X wins in a row or some things.Maybe winning should carry some additional bonus as well. hmm... I know... How about glimmer. IB always forces us to glimmer farm. Give the winning team a glimmer prize. Incentivise winning and team play without incentivising dropping losing games. Kills matter in Destiny, but capping flags is what wins. It's very difficult to win Control, if you are consistently down a flag. You pretty much have to 'out-kill' the opponents two to one. 2.0 KD ratio. That's not easy to do in Destiny for most people. Yeah, maybe one teammate can roll up a 25-10 type of score, but it's hard to find five other randoms to do that too. You'll lose. And if you aren't capping, hanging back a lot? In control, one good triple cap (30+ seconds or more)...and you almost have an automatic win. I personally don't care at all if IB ever becomes more 'competitive'. Or if Trials of O does either. But if I am going to be stuck playing control mode on IB (or something on ToO), grinding for stuff so I can get armor or guns....it would be nice if everyone playing the game, was playing the same game. It's just fvckign stupid, to have 12 people in a game, and having 12 people doing 12 different things. And yes, oftentimes people's interests will align, I might be exaggerating somewhat, but player motivation is scattered. Two people doing LMG headshots. Two people doing this bounty, three doing that. Always a few people hiding and sniping. And Destiny is a game that relies on help. You can't lone wolf it as much as CoD, especially with shields and supers.
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wings
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Post by wings on May 8, 2015 11:34:36 GMT -5
Would be nice if it was a visible stat. You can find it on destinytracker.com and type in your Gamertag/PSN ID but I don't know how reliable this particular stat is. My crucible 'skill level' used to be 18 until I started playing Iron Banner exclusively with my friends and some have remarked that there's a difficulty spike when they join me. No idea if this is unfounded or not but I wouldn't rule it out because the theory behind it is sound, i.e fewer pubstomping matches. It just means when my friends are in a rush to get to rank x, they need to maximise their competitive edge and if joining me in a party means they will face tougher opponents, then that is counterproductive to join me.
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Post by iw5000 on May 8, 2015 11:52:49 GMT -5
Would be nice if it was a visible stat. You can find it on destinytracker.com and type in your Gamertag/PSN ID but I don't know how reliable this particular stat is. My crucible 'skill level' used to be 18 until I started playing Iron Banner exclusively with my friends and some have remarked that there's a difficulty spike when they join me. No idea if this is unfounded or not but I wouldn't rule it out because the theory behind it is sound, i.e fewer pubstomping matches. It just means when my friends are in a rush to get to rank x, they need to maximise their competitive edge and if joining me in a party means they will face tougher opponents, then that is counterproductive to join me. Where do you find this skill level? I never looked at this before. I found this, when I signed in.... DTR Score "DTR Score is based of all the data we collect from PvP such as kills / medals / assists / deaths ect The front page score is currently just the medal score from Bungie which favours game types such as control as the score limit is higher. DTR is a much more robust and 'skill' based system"My official DTR score is in the top 21%. ranked 76,498 out of 364,276 people. I have no clue what that means. My KD ratio is somewhat pedestrian (0.99), but my capping rate and other flag based stats are all up in the top 5%. Edit. My stats are probably also fucked up, from running an underequipped Hunter class through the IB a few months ago. Did the whole IB with a level 20 Hunter, progressing up to level 28. I got sh1t on quite a bit with bad scores. ...as a side note. That's an abysmally small number of people who have played Crucible. Only 364k who have an actual registered stat? Even if Xbox is only 40% of the player base, that's still only 910,000 players. 'IF' the Destiny game has sold 15 million copies like Bungie claimed, that means only 6% of the players have played Crucible. And if the number is more towards 10 to 11 million sold (my views), the number is still only around 10% have played Crucible. Really low, no matter what way you view it.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on May 8, 2015 13:07:52 GMT -5
Wow... I'm in the top 2% for assists per game... *blink* Ouch...
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Post by iw5000 on May 8, 2015 13:32:38 GMT -5
Wow... I'm in the top 2% for assists per game... *blink* Ouch... I think that's good? I'm not sure. Or your connection sucks lol. Some of those stats are funny.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on May 8, 2015 13:42:37 GMT -5
I need to play a minimum of 50 games to show anything.
Pfffffffff.... eat a dick sandwich for that.
Well.... I dunno... everytime someone uses a thorn with me in a pug... I get all jelly
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mannon
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Post by mannon on May 8, 2015 13:48:45 GMT -5
I don't know. It probably goes both ways. I'm getting some licks on a lot of people, but then not sealing the deal somehow. heh My KD is 1.08 and my KA/D jumps to 1.55! lol Maybe it just means I'm a team player. I don't know what it means. ;p
Some more funny stats I don't know what to make of: Avg Kill Distance top 19% Suicides top 28%
Oh hey, combat rating is in the big fat list of stats, BTW. Mine is 98.46 top 54% so pretty bog standard.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on May 8, 2015 13:49:11 GMT -5
We'll get ours.
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Post by iw5000 on May 8, 2015 13:51:44 GMT -5
I tend to not push sh1t when I play crucible. If we have the good side on the maps (Control)...I almost instinctually sit back and try to control the spawns. Playing with randoms, get tired of getting burned when randoms flip spawns around. So I try to do my best to counter this. Which means, I tend to get less kills over time.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on May 8, 2015 14:09:57 GMT -5
I just played super aggressively over this last IB. Especially on the new maps added to IB... once I got the hang of them. At first I hated them, but now I rather like them. They are my kind of map. Nearly symmetrical and fairly linear with just a few paths and B in the middle. It is possible to flank in the, but it's not something enemies do to you often. And the maps are narrow enough you usually can tell when they are via radar. I dunno. I prefer a straight fight to all this sneaking around. ;p So far I really love B in Asylum, just because I can usually use cover to defend myself and there are so many lovely targets to kill there. It's magically delicious.
I spent most of my time rushing B at the start and going all out for defending it or attacking it. I didn't focus as much on actually capping it unless I could do it without dying, figuring it better to eliminate the enemy and cap it a little late than die and let them take it right back. On maps with a spawn cap close to B like Blair Witch and Rusty Land I tended to float between the two or try to hang near heavy ammo. I'm still pretty terrible at getting the heavy ammo.
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wings
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Post by wings on May 8, 2015 16:04:29 GMT -5
You can find it on destinytracker.com and type in your Gamertag/PSN ID but I don't know how reliable this particular stat is. My crucible 'skill level' used to be 18 until I started playing Iron Banner exclusively with my friends and some have remarked that there's a difficulty spike when they join me. No idea if this is unfounded or not but I wouldn't rule it out because the theory behind it is sound, i.e fewer pubstomping matches. It just means when my friends are in a rush to get to rank x, they need to maximise their competitive edge and if joining me in a party means they will face tougher opponents, then that is counterproductive to join me. Where do you find this skill level? I never looked at this before. I found this, when I signed in.... DTR Score "DTR Score is based of all the data we collect from PvP such as kills / medals / assists / deaths ect The front page score is currently just the medal score from Bungie which favours game types such as control as the score limit is higher. DTR is a much more robust and 'skill' based system"My official DTR score is in the top 21%. ranked 76,498 out of 364,276 people. I have no clue what that means. My KD ratio is somewhat pedestrian (0.99), but my capping rate and other flag based stats are all up in the top 5%. Edit. My stats are probably also Foxtroted up, from running an underequipped Hunter class through the IB a few months ago. Did the whole IB with a level 20 Hunter, progressing up to level 28. I got sh1t on quite a bit with bad scores. ...as a side note. That's an abysmally small number of people who have played Crucible. Only 364k who have an actual registered stat? Even if Xbox is only 40% of the player base, that's still only 910,000 players. 'IF' the Destiny game has sold 15 million copies like Bungie claimed, that means only 6% of the players have played Crucible. And if the number is more towards 10 to 11 million sold (my views), the number is still only around 10% have played Crucible. Really low, no matter what way you view it. I believe it is the two digit rank DTR Crucible High skill and yours states 10. My be it is that one. I don't have a goid way of checking everyone's perceived skill in lobbies apart from using a tablet in the prematch lobby and spy on the players using that site. From the very few players I have checked, their two digit rank thing does not have a too great difference from my own. I suspect the balance updates in PvP were partly made to encourage activity in the Crucible so I always thought there were few people playing it to start with.
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Post by snes chalmers on May 8, 2015 16:06:53 GMT -5
Looking at destinytracker, apparently I'm in the top 50 players on PSN for assists per game.
Well, that would explain all those unsung hero medals.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on May 8, 2015 16:27:51 GMT -5
The DTR thing is a metastat created by Destiny Tracker. There actually is a "Combat Rating" stat, however. It appears to be a stat reported by the API so it's something Destiny tracks and presumably uses internally. Although how much if any weight it gets for MM is hard to say and I also have no idea how Bungie calculates it.
Also it's interesting to note that the rankings on Destiny Tracker are different on the left than the right. At first I was confused but then I realized that the difference is that the ones on the left are per character slot and the ones on the right are per player. I've really only played Crucible on one character, but since there are fewer players than characters my rankings on the right are higher. Which puts my assists per game at #5474 in the top 1%. lol
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mannon
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Post by mannon on May 8, 2015 16:30:26 GMT -5
OH HELL I finally know what buckshot bruiser is! lol I kept seeing the bounty and never figuring out how to achieve it. Apparently it's a medal for killing 3 enemies with a shotgun without switching weapons or reloading. Yeah.... I'm a habitual reloader so I never get those, but now that I finally know what the hell it is maybe it won't be such a thing. heh
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mannon
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Post by mannon on May 8, 2015 16:35:29 GMT -5
Looking at destinytracker, apparently I'm in the top 50 players on PSN for assists per game. Well, that would explain all those unsung hero medals. Dude you're not just in the top 50 you're #6! lol I don't feel so bad now. >,> PS. I'm on PS4 so feel free to drop in on me too along with Marko and Brad. I'm just not on all that much lately.
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wings
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Post by wings on May 8, 2015 17:06:11 GMT -5
OH HELL I finally know what buckshot bruiser is! lol I kept seeing the bounty and never figuring out how to achieve it. Apparently it's a medal for killing 3 enemies with a shotgun without switching weapons or reloading. Yeah.... I'm a habitual reloader so I never get those, but now that I finally know what the hell it is maybe it won't be such a thing. heh Those were changed recently to 15 kills with x weapon. I sometimes managed to get the Hand Cannon one before they changed it but always when I never had the bounty. The fusion rifle bounty before they changed it might as well have been 'Get 15 kills using the Vex Mythoclast'.
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Post by snes chalmers on May 8, 2015 17:23:00 GMT -5
Yeah, those bounties are much, much easier now.
I sent you a contact request mannon. I'm on fairly often (as I'm grinding for vanguard and/or crucible marks on all 3 of my characters).
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