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Post by illram on Dec 9, 2019 12:01:04 GMT -5
Input lag isn't the right term, but I know what you mean. Mousey used to have an excellent post about this but his posts seem to have disappeared. The short version is that CoD trusts the shooter, and your actions stop registering the moment the killshot lands on you (at the server). So in these cases, you actually died already but your client doesn't know it yet. It hasn't gotten the message yet. So it keeps displaying you running around and shooting until it gets the message you died. It's just a fraction of a second but it's noticable. That's why once the server tells you, you never see yourself fire. The messages about you running and shooting are ignored since you're dead. If you're playing ground war, this delay is more noticable than other modes. And custom games are even worse. Total network delay under ideal network conditions is ping+1000/tickrate+processing time. Generally processing time is negligible. In small modes, tickrate is 62.5hz, and ground war is ~22hz. So groundwar has basically an unavoidable extra 30ms delay than other modes. So if you're playing ground war with a ping of 55, you basically have a total network delay of 100ms. Fire a shot and you get a hit marker 1/10 of a second later. 100ms is noticable but not quite quantifiable by average people. When you add in real world connections, things get even worse as packet loss and jitter will cause input buffering to maintain smooth gameplay appearance. Adding this input buffer further increases network delay, often significantly so. Aside from ground war running at a low tickrate, these issues aren't new to CoD or shooter. It's just far more noticable thanks to some game design choices in MW. Faster TTK, campy, "fat" character models, etc. Because CoD trusts the shooter, you end up running into a lot of situations where someone else having a bad connection can negatively impact your gameplay. For example, on your screen you're well behind a corner, but on his you haven't made it through the door yet because he has a large network delay. So he shoots your exposed body, his shots count because we trust the shooter, and you die around the corner. TLDR: You didn't fire because you were already dead you just didn't know it yet. Like a bad anime. Yeah so I know that's always been a problem, I remember that post. But in the past it didn't affect my initial on screen actions. Like I said I'd have my shot happen but on killcam it didn't show me shooting. I.e. client side actions happened. Now though, I'm not even shooting on my screen. That's why it seems like input lag, or at least acts like it. Is this just a "new" way to try and make us experience latency? If so it's even more annoying. In other words I click fire, I don't fire on my screen, and I die. The way it used to work I clicked fire, I fired on my screen but not the killcam (server), and died.
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exaltedvanguard
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Post by exaltedvanguard on Dec 9, 2019 12:44:02 GMT -5
Ah, I understand. You're not seeing yourself fire in first person, prior to dying.
Only 3 possible explanations for that: 1) If you are using any gun that is an open bolt design, there is a trigger delay. A short delay between click and bang. The PKM and Uzi have trigger delay, as well as the double-action revolver (.357). There may be others, but those are the only ones I know of.
If you're using one of these guns, you could theoretically be dying during the trigger delay. Also just don't use the Uzi. Good God that gun is trash.😂
2) Players are generally terrible judges of what actually happened. There's tons of players that will scream that hit detection is trash and that their shots aren't registering. Then you play the footage back and it turns out they just missed a bunch.
This just depends on the person. I've been sitting on a friend's couch watching them play and just been like "Dude... You missed. You just missed," watching it in real time. And there's plenty of times I'll be playing and know that I missed by a fraction of an inch. So it just depends on the person and how sensitive they are too this stuff. But if course everyone likes to think their senses are infallible. "I know what I saw!"
So it's certainly possible that you think that you pulled the trigger prior to dying when you really didn't.
3) Lastly, it's certainly possible there's slightly more input lag compared to previous titles, but I haven't noticed it on Xbox 1X. Then again Xbox has pretty shit input lag to begin with. I don't think anyone's tested MW specifically. A quick search showed that some PC players had issues due to the game giving itself High CPU priority, and that messed with their M/KB drivers. Changing back to normal priority gave enough resources back to the drivers and fixed the problem.
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Post by illram on Dec 9, 2019 12:57:51 GMT -5
It is most obvious with the 725 shotgun (since it is very apparent when you click fire and then die and no shot fires,even in fractions of a second). Just started reading about trigger delay, thanks for pointing that out. I suspect that is it. If it is that, fine, I'll accept it as just part of the meta. If so I'll just be happy it's not some sort of new wonky netcode problem or input lag issue with the engine.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Dec 11, 2019 13:57:48 GMT -5
I think they still haven't addressed the biggest issue that the game has, in that it's still a campfest. 4 kills is still too high for a UAV and yet Ghost is still the best perk in its tier. The only reliable way to detect enemies is to stay still and listen for their footsteps. The game really gives no advantages to players who rush as well. There are spots where a player can set up where even if I know a player is there, I still have a very low chance of winning the gunfight. These problems are pretty fixable: - Slightly nerf base footstep levels and then make Dead Silence and Awareness perks - Increase AR ADS walk speed, or make it so you can equip multiple attachments to do so (as of now, only stock can improve your ADS walking speed) - Danger Close and/or a secondary grenade launcher to take out campers - Buff Scavenger or Restock to allow you to resupply tactical grenades from enemies and carry an extra, so you can aggressively use flashbangs/stuns, perhaps throw them quicker as well. Hell, bring back Recon from MW3. - FFS give me back something to be able to just run past claymores and mines without triggering them. Even if I see one, I have to stop running and destroy it to get past it.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Dec 11, 2019 14:19:48 GMT -5
Btw, what's the point of leveling from 56 to 155? Aside from that it happens anyway, you don't get anything along the way, correct? I'm confused as to why you have 100 levels of XP to earn per season and 100 levels of rewards for the Battle Pass which appear to be earned through time spent. Why are those separate?
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exaltedvanguard
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Post by exaltedvanguard on Dec 11, 2019 17:24:24 GMT -5
56-155 is kind of an obtuse system designed to appease the people who play for progression (prestiging, etc).
You level up, which then unlocks officer challenges, which then unlock a seasonal emblem. And the challenges also give you xp to level up faster so you can unlock more challenges faster.
It's kinda clunky. I think there should be a seasonal emblem for hitting 155 or for completing challenges, or even have both systems simultaneously. But the 3-step plan we currently have is kinda awkward.
Having the whole season to grind out challenges would probably feel a lot better than having to sprint to 155 as quick as possible to get them unlocked.
But yeah. That's all it is. Working toward an emblem.
The battle pass is a completely different system. Info from sour. Turns out XP is a factor (I was wrong on this previously), but it is not a super huge factor. Time per tier ranges from ~55min to ~35 min, based on XP. Average player will take around 45min/tier.
Trials give a flat 10% per 3 star trial.
"Best" way to get tiers is still afking overnight. You would have gotten an extra tier playing for those 8 hours of sleep instead of afking. But hey, you were sleeping. That's not bad.
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exaltedvanguard
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Post by exaltedvanguard on Dec 11, 2019 21:57:45 GMT -5
Honestly, this level of negative press is at the point where most companies start firing people. It's waaaaaaaaaaaay worse than I remember WW2 being, and that got Condrey removed... I'm not a fan of setting people lose their jobs but at this point I sure as shit won't be surprised.
If anyone has to go, I hope Ashton moves on to an alternative opportunity. The complete lack of communication combined with the fact she knowingly misleads the community on hot topics ("here comes the big update everyone's asking for")... Yeah. She should not be the community manager IMO. It's literally her job to talk to the community, and the silence is deafening. Even the most basic communication on anything at all would be helpful. Apparently she just blocks anyone on Twitter asking about hot topics. Definitely not how a communication manager should conduct themselves.
On the latest patch notes there's literally HUNDREDS of comments asking for the same couple things (SBMM being by far the most), and a hundred or so just saying "just ****ing talk to us." The mods are quite obviously deleting comments as fast as they can and they can't keep up. This community is a damn train wreck.
I'm conflicted. I want the game to make money so Activision doesn't make them switch back to loot boxes. But I also want it to fail so Daddy Activision steps in and lays down the law so that SOMETHING happens. I really don't care if that something is IW making the changes that the community wants or if it's just making a statement that they're not going to. Positive or negative I don't care. I just want to hear SOMETHING definitive.
In other news ground war aniyah palace is fun.
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wings
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Post by wings on Dec 14, 2019 12:12:03 GMT -5
Activision would happily go back to lootboxes when it thinks politicians and legislators have started to cool on the idea that lootboxes is just gambling. Rather ironic publishers defending lootboxes as not being gambling because the law hasn't been updated, a position they never took when the cried over copyright infringement offences being committed as being the same as theft (piracy is theft! waaaahhh!).
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Dec 16, 2019 9:13:02 GMT -5
You guys think this shit is in the game?
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exaltedvanguard
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Post by exaltedvanguard on Dec 16, 2019 14:44:25 GMT -5
No, I don't believe that the accuracy manipulation is in the game. It's just a very generalized patent by Activision.
Stuff like this getting out of control is what happens when a company refuses to talk to it's community. Rumors upon rumors upon rumors. If they had been talking to us at all, when this "news" broke they could have just said, "Nah, that patents not for CoD. We're not manipulating accuracy and have no plans to," and the rumor would have stopped day one.
Instead, they've ignored everyone (except ninja apparently???) and worse, have misled us ("big update"), so the masses probably wouldn't believed them now if they did.
Rampant hit detection issues appear to be related to frequent connection issues. Probably overloaded servers. I'm seeing a lot of packet loss on busy nights (relative to other games). CoD netcode buffers inputs when packet loss is detected, which in a simplified view means packet loss = increased latency. So even though your ping is low, you're experiencing the game as if you had a high ping (but have no way of knowing).
Additionally, I have a suspicion, but no way to know as an outsider, that there may be a netcode bug involving tactical sprint.
(Incoming CoD dinosaur knowledge:) Back prior to BO3, there was a netcode bug that erroneously applied a players current stance to previous game states when verifying hits sent by the client. This was why dropshotting was crazy effective in the older games and has now fallen out of favor. Basically if someone was running then suddenly went prone while someone opened fire, the engine would verify all shots as if the player had been prone the entire time. Since it's unlikely they were aiming at the running dudes feet, bullets would disappear even though they were sure hits. Made dropshotting really strong.
I think some variation of this bug may have been reintroduced with tactical sprint, since most clips seem to involve the target coming out of a supersprint. However it's virtually impossible for us to test this on a live connection. Even in controlled environments this type of stuff is super hard to find, which is why the bug existed until BO3.
Another possible explaination is the switch to projectiles from hitscan. Projectiles historically feel bad/inconsistent in most shooters (there's a reason Halo 3->Reach made the switch back to hitscan, there's a reason BO4 was patched back to hitscan). From what I've been told, MW19 uses a hybrid system where it's hitscan at close range though, and I've seen plenty of problem clips up close. Hard to know for sure, and again nearly impossible to test on a live connection.
Someone with way more motivation than I could potentially disassemble and interpret the listen-server code, but realistically only the devs can truly tell us why hit detection feels bad in this game (and they're the only ones that could fix it). And really by far the most likely of these is the simplest: The servers are overloaded because Activision doesn't want to spend the money on more of them.
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exaltedvanguard
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Post by exaltedvanguard on Dec 19, 2019 7:33:35 GMT -5
New gun bundle apparently had blue tracer rounds that also have a great big blue "fire" hitspark on impact.
I personally have no issue with this aside from the fact IW stressed they would only have realistic camos and effects in this game. Kinda funny to see how quickly we got animu guns and rainbow rounds.
I'm hoping that the new update will fix the matchmaking hell I've been in lately.
I know that there's was a matchmaking bug putting people into smaller player pools (patches not being applied, playing on old version) that was supposedly fixed this update. I play ground war almost exclusively nowadays and am always ranked quite highly at the end of each match. Not sure if it was the bug or SBMM causing it.
I've been frequently playing half-full ground war lobbies. Many matches feel like a ghost town. Connections are frequently terrible, although that might just be GW in general, and they vary quite significantly from match to match. One match will be smooth as butter and the next will be nigh unplayable. I'm on Xbox but matched with a very large number of PC players (like >50%). And I certainly run into the occasional potato, but the majority of players I'm matched against are quite skilled and can reliably beam you across the map. Almost every game is a stomp, one way or the other - people understand how to set up a spawn trap. And the player pool seems tiny. I'm frequently seeing the same names pop up in my games.
I'm hoping it was just the bug. I'll report back if my hell had ended. But finished out GW matches with ~20/64 players is becoming a bit of a chore.
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Post by Wonder Showzen on Dec 19, 2019 20:35:36 GMT -5
Speaking of SBMM, I play on east coast US, and when I am playing super late at night around 4-5am, when everyone has gone to bed, it feels like SBMM is non-existent and I am placed in some EASY lobbies. I am assuming that connection/ping is paramount to matchmaking and it is placing me with 30ms ping players first, before trying to reach better skilled players farther away.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Dec 20, 2019 10:22:42 GMT -5
I play ground war almost exclusively as well (been playing the moshpit some the past few days) and I think I'm generally top 5 on my team. SBMM is always overblown by the community at launch, because they're morons that can't seem to understand the people playing in November and he beginning of December are more skilled than the people they played against in September and October. Here's something I wrote 5 years ago about it: denkirson.proboards.com/post/198126/threadIW hasn't responded to the insane whining of the community because they can't just come out and say, "Only tryhards are playing the game right now so just chill until some noobs start playing after Xmas, we didn't change the matchmaking algorithm to increase SBMM". Generally telling all your customers that they're wrong and that they're not as good as they think they are, and telling all you potential customers they suck - not a great PR strategy. I haven't had problems like you have with matches being full, my Ground War matches have been fine. I have noticed some names popping up frequently, however. The moshpit playlist is a mess. If you don't lobby shop, you'll get put in a lobby for Vacant 90% of the time, and it will take a while to start because of people backing out who are trying the get Shipment. Every time someone enters or leaves the lobby the timer resets rather than just starting the match with 11 people. I didn't lobby shop, and so I ended up playing Vacant over and over and over until I got sick of it, and realized I had to lobby shop to be able to play Shipment. They should take TDM on Shipment out of the playlist. Not only because the game takes longer to load than to play, but also because the spawns are somehow worse in TDM than any other gamemode on that map. I see mouth breathers on Reddit begging for a Shipment/Shoot House 24/7 playlist. Shoot House is better than the maps included in the base game because it's smaller so you can find people, but other than that, it's a terrible map. It's a series of headglitches where everything is a right angle. Shipment has more interesting angles. Shipment is also just kind of a sh itshow you can lean into and enjoy, where Shoot House just isn't.
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exaltedvanguard
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Post by exaltedvanguard on Dec 20, 2019 12:42:13 GMT -5
I partially disagree with your assessment on SBMM. Your linked data doesn't account for the fact players are learning a new game during the first several months, so it's totally expected that even a good player will see their KD rise as the population learns meta, map flow, etc. a good player benefits more from figuring out a meta-class than a bad player, as the bad player is held back moreso by their own skill rather than the incremental advantages meta guns give you. Christmas casuals/noobs is totally a thing though, I agree.
But SBMM is undeniably much stronger with this game than previous titles. That said, it's not the only issue at play, and it's removal will not by itself fix the game. There's plenty of gameplay design choices which lower the skill ceiling and amplify the effect of SBMM. SBMM is kind of a multiplier that's applied to these design choices.
Regular 6v6 modes have basically become unplayable to me. I have to be jump-shotting with a meta-gun to compete with the entire enemy team who's doing the same. I don't mind the occasional match like this, but I'm bored of it. It's not any fun to play match after match of it. So ground war is all I play now. The players have still quite good, but not every single person is jumping around corners.
As far as my own issues with GW matchmaking, I'm hoping it was the bug. I haven't had much chance to play the last couple days.
On the topic of communication, it goes a lot farther than SBMM. Why are there stealth gameplay changes not listed in patch notes? And why have they not talked about gameplay balance at all? Why have they not made any comments about upcoming changes to spec-ops, a mode which is undeniably broken? Why have they not commented on the many, many requests for minimap changes? Why have they not commented on upcoming fixes for UI issues, like capture bars over people's gun sights or blue dots causing enemy/friendly confusion? Why haven't they made any comment on the horrid visibility on this game? Why did they tell us over and over that cosmetics would all be realistic and serious, then turn around and add an anime gun and blue laser bullets that have but firery hitsparks? Why did they tell us the "big update" that everyone was asking about was coming when it was just a standard bugfix patch? Why do they claim their working with pro players on footstep volume, when they're working obviously not? Why are they not talking to pros about anything, including very large issues such as 12Hz servers? Why are they saying that they designed this game for casual players while trying to create $25 million pro player franchises? Are spawns even being looked at?
There's soooooo many issues that they need to address. And they don't have to appease everyone. They could just come out and say "we're not changing X, this is how we want it." And it might be disappointing. But at least then you know. Then the insane whining (mostly) stops. When people feel completely, totally, and utterly ignored. So they start getting louder and yelling from the rooftops.
A basic roadmap of planned fixes and an official comment on some hot topic issues would quiet the crowd a lot. There's always gonna be complaints obvio, but at least there's a definitive answer to give to the people that disagree.
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Eh. I feel like I've been so negative here lately. Feels bad, bro. I really want to love this game, but it's so hard to.
I've been thinking about going through and thoroughly testing some gun stats. There's some basic stuff that YouTubers get close on but don't have the best methodologies (firerates being one that jumps out at me). Not sure if anyone would really care though since their numbers are definitely close enough for the vast majority of players.
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exaltedvanguard
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Post by exaltedvanguard on Dec 23, 2019 8:28:12 GMT -5
Ooooh boy shipment is a mess. And not in the good way that shipment is normally a mess. The spawns are playing soooo bad.
And the Vacant/shipment mosh playlist is pretty definitive proof that people will just lobby shop without map voting in the game. Haven't gotten to play on vacate yet. Sat there for 5-ish minutes last night and gave up.
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Post by scubasteven on Dec 23, 2019 21:34:51 GMT -5
You guys think this shit is in the game? It's Sniper Frog!
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exaltedvanguard
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Post by exaltedvanguard on Dec 30, 2019 15:30:41 GMT -5
So today Gaming Revolution posted a video "exposing" that MW isn't using a brand new engine, just another modified version of the previous one.
I thought it was fairly obvious to anyone that it's an entirely new *graphics* engine bolted onto the old game/physics engine.
Quite frankly the game/physics engine being rewritten would get me far more excited, but there's a big risk of them messing up the feel of the game by doing that.
Personally I'd love them too switch over to CryEngine, but that's never gonna happen. Crysis 2 and 3 were the smoothest feeling (in terms of moving through the game world) shooters I ever played. Your character would just naturally step over/around stuff instead of getting caught on a 2 cm edge like in CoD. Pipedreams I know.
All that said, there's very little motivation for any developer to entirely rewrite an entire game engine. They're mostly iterative processes. An outsider looking in certainly sees a lot of spaghetti-code issues that would can indicate it may be time to do so.... Pipedreams.
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Post by illram on Jan 5, 2020 18:27:28 GMT -5
If I remember correctly they always say it's a new engine. I always assumed it was some iteration of their IW engine but I do appreciate they added Atmos compatibility. The game does look pretty, visibility issues aside, and the ragdoll physics seems a little better. The PC 1-3 second stuttering is super annoying though.
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exaltedvanguard
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Post by exaltedvanguard on Jan 10, 2020 16:08:19 GMT -5
Okay so that's a fun bug... Playing some ground war and someone's character model didn't render properly. I saw their shadow on the ground around a corner and waited for them to walk out. Sure enough the shadow walks out around the corner. Just the shadow. No body. After a half-second or so he must have turned and noticed me standing there (trying to figure out if maybe the shadow was displaying oddly from a window or something). I get shot and he finally pops into existence as I die. I know there's a ton of memes about visibility being generally shit in this game, but this is ridiculous! Pretty funny tho. Wish I recorded it. https://www.reddit.com/r/modernwarfare/comments/emte9g/invisible_enemies_100_proof/ Happened to someone else too. Nice to see someone finally got it on film.
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exaltedvanguard
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Post by exaltedvanguard on Feb 13, 2020 22:08:43 GMT -5
It should come as a surprise to literally no one that moving kill chain to perk 1 has made the game even campier.
The new ground war map is the door and window-y-est it's ever been.
And like every patch that's come out, we've reintroduced bugs that had been fixed in the previous patch. In this case the ground war visual glitches are back. SVNs are hard.
At this point I'm not even mad. I'm impressed. We're seeing levels of franchises mismanagement I thought not possible.
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Usagi
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Post by Usagi on Feb 15, 2020 18:10:51 GMT -5
Played some gun game yesterday. It's nice to actually be able to play it for once. Fuck the Strela tho.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 21, 2020 5:28:57 GMT -5
How can there be so much hate towards SBMM? I don't get it, do we really need to go 25-3 every game? I get it, we are all probably 1% gamers on here, but still, you can get satisfaction from improving on your own, not just your KD.
In all forms of sports you play against people around your own skill level, why is it a bad thing or a money grab thing all of a sudden when an Esport does it? How often do you see pro basketball players play against the neighborhood team?
I do think a ranking system would be neat, to at least see how well you are doing. But I don't need to ruin 10 noobs fun to feel I have improved. Just some form of visual skill rating would be fine for me honestly.
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Post by Broadband on Apr 21, 2020 23:12:10 GMT -5
How can there be so much hate towards SBMM? I don't get it, do we really need to go 25-3 every game? I get it, we are all probably 1% gamers on here, but still, you can get satisfaction from improving on your own, not just your KD. In all forms of sports you play against people around your own skill level, why is it a bad thing or a money grab thing all of a sudden when an Esport does it? How often do you see pro basketball players play against the neighborhood team? I do think a ranking system would be neat, to at least see how well you are doing. But I don't need to ruin 10 noobs fun to feel I have improved. Just some form of visual skill rating would be fine for me honestly. SBMM has a place in highly competitive games with high skill ceilings & steep learning curves. The problem is, CoD (and especially MW2019) is so uncompetitive at its core, and there are numerous tools & game design choices implemented to help newer players: Tons of intentional nooks & crannies all over the maps (literally dubbed "safe spaces" by nu-IW), no red dot on the minimap when firing an unsuppressed weapon, and the usual CoD fare (fast TTK, random spawns, launchers). Comparing public CoD matches to Esports is just plain silly. CoD, simply put, is the Mario Kart of FPS. People can pretend it's a highly skilled FPS with lots of nuance, but it's really not. It's an arcade shooter that got big because of its lack of a steep learning curve and accessibility to people who aren't used to FPS. And that's not a bad thing. The below video explains it better than I can (timestamped the relevant part):
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 22, 2020 6:32:45 GMT -5
SBMM has a place in highly competitive games with high skill ceilings & steep learning curves. The problem is, CoD (and especially MW2019) is so uncompetitive at its core, and there are numerous tools & game design choices implemented to help newer players: Tons of intentional nooks & crannies all over the maps (literally dubbed "safe spaces" by nu-IW), no red dot on the minimap when firing an unsuppressed weapon, and the usual CoD fare (fast TTK, random spawns, launchers). Comparing public CoD matches to Esports is just plain silly. I don't mean esports as the competitive tournaments for money, but more as a general term for FPS gaming. I am far more upset about the safe spaces, spawns and launchers than SBMM honestly. SBMM is in place in just about all forms of competition in our society. Sports, games, quizzes etc. (p.s. I think no red dots on the map is noob unfriendly, instead of noob friendly). CoD, simply put, is the Mario Kart of FPS. People can pretend it's a highly skilled FPS with lots of nuance, but it's really not. It's an arcade shooter that got big because of its lack of a steep learning curve and accessibility to people who aren't used to FPS. And that's not a bad thing. Exactly, which is why SBMM makes a lot of sense imho. I don't get the narrative that SBMM is only warranted in "very serious games". If anything, it is the opposite. People like to have some fun, just like the people in your local football club like to have fun. There are leagues even in amateur football, for good reason. It is fun to stand a chance, it is not fun to get wrecked. The below video explains it better than I can (timestamped the relevant part): I agree partially with the video. I think strict skill based matchmaking might be a bad thing. I am honestly not sure if that is the case here though, I haven't found any evidence for it, the matchmaking seems fairly loose to me. Furthermore, I absolutely agree that people need to see some form of skill rating to be able to track their own progression. Some form of elo rank would be a great addition imho. I absolutely disagree that the game is "too casual" for SBMM though, like I said above, even amateur sports clubs have leagues for good reason. Casual experiences warrant just as much SBMM as competitive ones imho. Playing with friends is a problem for sure, but I am not sure what the solution would be. On the other hand, bad players would just as much have a bad time when there is no SBMM. I honestly think that some problems are with the game design, not SBMM (like the weapon variety / camo challenge thing, I believe the game should be better balanced, instead of good players being able to still wreck with bad guns). These kind of video's never see the story from the newer players side. How would a new player get bad weapons gold? he is going to struggle too. Maybe the good players should struggle for them as well. Additionally, Ace seems to hypothesize SBMM is heavily weighted towards past couple of games. So just suck a few games up getting destroyed while going for your riot shield challenges, and then you will have a fine lobby to grind it out. I really don't see what all the fuzz is about. It is a big problem in BR games imho, where there should only be 2 different skill brackets: 1. noobs 2. the rest. In respawn game modes I think SBMM is absolutely fine.
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Post by banana on Apr 23, 2020 12:33:50 GMT -5
multiplayer wise this game kinda sucks
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exaltedvanguard
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Post by exaltedvanguard on Apr 23, 2020 19:39:32 GMT -5
I'm not gonna re-hash the whole SBMM argument. You can go back and read my previous posts if you want my comprehensive reasoning.
The problem with it in CoD is that the game wants you to experiment and try new things. Try a goofy riot shield, for example. And as you suggest, a good player can just get dunked on and lose for a while to get into lower lobbies where their joke build can work. The problem with that is that if I've been going hard and sweating it up, I'm gonna have to lose 3-4 games to play with an off-meta gun and 5-10 games to lower my MMR enough to play with that joke-build. Standards games are 10 minutes* long. That means I HAVE TO GET DUNKED ON FOR AN HOUR TO USE A JOKE BUILD. That. Sucks. By the time I'm done with that, I might not even feel like using the joke build anymore. And even if I do, the joy of it has been pretty much killed by the incredibly un-fun hour before it. To put it bluntly, I don't get to enjoy joke builds. I can't just whimsically pick up the riot shield. I'm not allowed to. Not without paying "fun debt."
*As mainly a ground war player, matches are generally 20 minutes long, so make that 2 hours. As if an hour wouldn't be bad enough.
The other reason it's awful... Ill just leave it at this: The reason I stopped playing the game was because between strict SBMM and aggressive team balancing, I felt like I had little to no agency in the outcome of a game. I was fine with that for a while, but the longer I played the more it wore on me. As I began to "see behind the curtain" if you will, it became more and more apparent that the outcome of games was being decided in the lobby by team assignment. After a time it became incredibly apparent that the game is desperately trying to manipulate matches to keep you at a 50/50 win rate, and using highly aggressive SBMM and team balancing to accomplish that. I could put up with it for a while, but eventually I got sick of a game that is, in a word, rigged.
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Post by Broadband on Apr 24, 2020 2:11:43 GMT -5
I don't mean esports as the competitive tournaments for money, but more as a general term for FPS gaming. I am far more upset about the safe spaces, spawns and launchers than SBMM honestly. SBMM is in place in just about all forms of competition in our society. Sports, games, quizzes etc. (p.s. I think no red dots on the map is noob unfriendly, instead of noob friendly). Oh don't get me wrong. As much as I disagree with SBMM being in CoD, the questionable choices nu-IW made irk me more. You don't think the lack of red dots caters to noobs, though? IMO it does because newer players don't use the minimap to gauge where enemies are, and it also helps to conceal their hiding spots even when using an unsuppressed weapon. Both of these elements are undoubtedly hampering more seasoned players. Not that it matters a whole lot though since the SBMM is turned up to 1000 in this game. Exactly, which is why SBMM makes a lot of sense imho. I don't get the narrative that SBMM is only warranted in "very serious games". If anything, it is the opposite. People like to have some fun, just like the people in your local football club like to have fun. There are leagues even in amateur football, for good reason. It is fun to stand a chance, it is not fun to get wrecked. Why does SBMM make sense in a casual game with so many random elements? Are you really going to tell me noobs weren't having fun playing, say, Black Ops where there was no SBMM of any sort? Or if it's such a problem, why not have choice like in Black Ops II with an unranked playlist & a ranked playlist? There may be organized leagues in amateur sports, but there's also pickup games where anyone of all skill levels can play. CoD is (or was) seen as the latter rather than the former. "It is fun to stand a chance, it is not fun to get wrecked." I'm sure plenty of people here who started on CoDs without any SBMM would disagree. I was atrocious when I played CoD4 for the first time, but because the game was really fun & engaging to me I wanted to keep playing to improve, even when I was going 5-20 and getting spawnraped. That aside I know a lot of people these days probably don't have the patience to learn how to get better the hard way, so as a compromise I think having a ranked playlist (as opposed to the hidden MMR bullsh it in MW2019) as well as perhaps shielding the absolute worst players would be ideal. I agree partially with the video. I think strict skill based matchmaking might be a bad thing. I am honestly not sure if that is the case here though, I haven't found any evidence for it, the matchmaking seems fairly loose to me. Furthermore, I absolutely agree that people need to see some form of skill rating to be able to track their own progression. Some form of elo rank would be a great addition imho. I absolutely disagree that the game is "too casual" for SBMM though, like I said above, even amateur sports clubs have leagues for good reason. Casual experiences warrant just as much SBMM as competitive ones imho. Playing with friends is a problem for sure, but I am not sure what the solution would be. On the other hand, bad players would just as much have a bad time when there is no SBMM. I honestly think that some problems are with the game design, not SBMM (like the weapon variety / camo challenge thing, I believe the game should be better balanced, instead of good players being able to still wreck with bad guns). These kind of video's never see the story from the newer players side. How would a new player get bad weapons gold? he is going to struggle too. Maybe the good players should struggle for them as well. Additionally, Ace seems to hypothesize SBMM is heavily weighted towards past couple of games. So just suck a few games up getting destroyed while going for your riot shield challenges, and then you will have a fine lobby to grind it out. I really don't see what all the fuzz is about. It is a big problem in BR games imho, where there should only be 2 different skill brackets: 1. noobs 2. the rest. In respawn game modes I think SBMM is absolutely fine. Based on the time I played MW2019, the SBMM definitely felt strict. I didn't recall seeing a lot players pop off, just everyone using the same meta setup with 1.0-1.5 K/Ds. What makes MW2019 not casual in your opinion? And as I said earlier, the comparison to amateur sports clubs is not a particularly good one because as I pointed out there also exist casual pickup games where people just play for fun. And honestly, in regards to the issue of bad players getting camos for bad guns, these are the type of people who are spending real money on MTX and don't want to grind so what difference does it make? I'll admit it's one of the weaker points Ace made since skins don't affect the game in any meaningful way. How does SBMM make sense in the core MP but not in BR? If the lack of respawns are the differentiating factor, what about Search & Destroy (arguably the most "competitive" game mode in CoD)? Again, look back to CoD before there was any SBMM (CoD4 - Ghosts). TONS of unskilled people still played these games, despite playing against better players time and time again. The notion that a lack of SBMM hampered peoples' fun in any way is just false; in fact one can argue that CoD was undeniably more popular and had a much larger presence on social media during this time. This isn't freaking Counter-Strike, it's Call of Duty. Friends of all skill levels should be able to play with each other, no strings attached. As I've previously stated though, SBMM is not the biggest problem in MW2019 in my opinion. I have a much bigger problem with the maps & spawns, as well as the questionable design choices they made with the MP (not including the egregious SBMM).
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qupie
True Bro
Posts: 12,400
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Post by qupie on Apr 28, 2020 8:36:52 GMT -5
To put it bluntly, I don't get to enjoy joke builds. I can't just whimsically pick up the riot shield. I'm not allowed to. Not without paying "fun debt." This argument completely assumes you are a player that is better than the rest already. How do you think the average player would play with a fun build? They would get slaughtered even more. Most of these arguments only work for good players, which is the problem with the whole discussion imho. Every single argument needs to be assessed from both a good and a bad players perspective. Letting the top 10% use a fun loadout and still stomp is not a good argument for removing SBMM imho.
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qupie
True Bro
Posts: 12,400
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Post by qupie on Apr 28, 2020 8:46:42 GMT -5
I don't mean esports as the competitive tournaments for money, but more as a general term for FPS gaming. I am far more upset about the safe spaces, spawns and launchers than SBMM honestly. SBMM is in place in just about all forms of competition in our society. Sports, games, quizzes etc. (p.s. I think no red dots on the map is noob unfriendly, instead of noob friendly). Oh don't get me wrong. As much as I disagree with SBMM being in CoD, the questionable choices nu-IW made irk me more. You don't think the lack of red dots caters to noobs, though? IMO it does because newer players don't use the minimap to gauge where enemies are, and it also helps to conceal their hiding spots even when using an unsuppressed weapon. Both of these elements are undoubtedly hampering more seasoned players. Not that it matters a whole lot though since the SBMM is turned up to 1000 in this game. Exactly, which is why SBMM makes a lot of sense imho. I don't get the narrative that SBMM is only warranted in "very serious games". If anything, it is the opposite. People like to have some fun, just like the people in your local football club like to have fun. There are leagues even in amateur football, for good reason. It is fun to stand a chance, it is not fun to get wrecked. Why does SBMM make sense in a casual game with so many random elements? Why doesn't it? Why do random elements effect this? I am not stating COD is not a casual game, I think that a game being casual or not doesn't change whether SBMM is warrented. If I play a casual game of chess with friends, I often play with one piece less on the board, just to keep it fun for both parties. Casual games are more fun if they are fairly matched.Are you really going to tell me noobs weren't having fun playing, say, Black Ops where there was no SBMM of any sort? Or if it's such a problem, why not have choice like in Black Ops II with an unranked playlist & a ranked playlist? There may be organized leagues in amateur sports, but there's also pickup games where anyone of all skill levels can play. CoD is (or was) seen as the latter rather than the former. I would be absolutely fine with a ranked and unranked playlist, although I think the ranked should be the default."It is fun to stand a chance, it is not fun to get wrecked." I'm sure plenty of people here who started on CoDs without any SBMM would disagree. I was atrocious when I played CoD4 for the first time, but because the game was really fun & engaging to me I wanted to keep playing to improve, even when I was going 5-20 and getting spawnraped. That aside I know a lot of people these days probably don't have the patience to learn how to get better the hard way, so as a compromise I think having a ranked playlist (as opposed to the hidden MMR bullsh it in MW2019) as well as perhaps shielding the absolute worst players would be ideal. Agreed, I think that ranked playlist should be the default list, the most important part though, is making the ranking visible. I was one of those guys btw, I started at COD 4, and while I kept playing, a lot of others simply didn'tI agree partially with the video. I think strict skill based matchmaking might be a bad thing. I am honestly not sure if that is the case here though, I haven't found any evidence for it, the matchmaking seems fairly loose to me. Furthermore, I absolutely agree that people need to see some form of skill rating to be able to track their own progression. Some form of elo rank would be a great addition imho. I absolutely disagree that the game is "too casual" for SBMM though, like I said above, even amateur sports clubs have leagues for good reason. Casual experiences warrant just as much SBMM as competitive ones imho. Playing with friends is a problem for sure, but I am not sure what the solution would be. On the other hand, bad players would just as much have a bad time when there is no SBMM. I honestly think that some problems are with the game design, not SBMM (like the weapon variety / camo challenge thing, I believe the game should be better balanced, instead of good players being able to still wreck with bad guns). These kind of video's never see the story from the newer players side. How would a new player get bad weapons gold? he is going to struggle too. Maybe the good players should struggle for them as well. Additionally, Ace seems to hypothesize SBMM is heavily weighted towards past couple of games. So just suck a few games up getting destroyed while going for your riot shield challenges, and then you will have a fine lobby to grind it out. I really don't see what all the fuzz is about. It is a big problem in BR games imho, where there should only be 2 different skill brackets: 1. noobs 2. the rest. In respawn game modes I think SBMM is absolutely fine. Based on the time I played MW2019, the SBMM definitely felt strict. I didn't recall seeing a lot players pop off, just everyone using the same meta setup with 1.0-1.5 K/Ds. What makes MW2019 not casual in your opinion? I do think it is casual, I just don't see how SBMM should be limited to competitive games only And as I said earlier, the comparison to amateur sports clubs is not a particularly good one because as I pointed out there also exist casual pickup games where people just play for fun Sure, but also in those instances, the teams are somewhat balanced quite often, good players are distributed or the better team plays with less players. Even casual games are more fun if both sides stand a chance. And honestly, in regards to the issue of bad players getting camos for bad guns, these are the type of people who are spending real money on MTX and don't want to grind so what difference does it make? Quite the opposite in my experience! The top 1% doesn't care about getting everything gold at all I'll admit it's one of the weaker points Ace made since skins don't affect the game in any meaningful way. How does SBMM make sense in the core MP but not in BR? If the lack of respawns are the differentiating factor, what about Search & Destroy (arguably the most "competitive" game mode in CoD)? Because in a BR to win you have to win 10 engagements in a row. Additionally, part of the fun is because the underdog can have a chance to win due to RNG (at least I think that's why they are such a succes)Again, look back to CoD before there was any SBMM (CoD4 - Ghosts). TONS of unskilled people still played these games, despite playing against better players time and time again. Like you said, the field has changed. If new players are going to get wrecked 7 days in a row, they will go and play another game. Simple as that. Would I like to go back to the old days? Maybe. But you can't just change one thing (SBMM) and assume without it everything is going back to normal. COD isn't the only shooter around anymore.The notion that a lack of SBMM hampered peoples' fun in any way is just false; Hard disagree there. I have tried to introduce multiple friends into COD and they just weren't into getting destroyed over and over in fact one can argue that CoD was undeniably more popular and had a much larger presence on social media during this time. This isn't freaking Counter-Strike, it's Call of Duty. Friends of all skill levels should be able to play with each other, no strings attached. Agreed, but thats still possible like it was beforeAs I've previously stated though, SBMM is not the biggest problem in MW2019 in my opinion. I have a much bigger problem with the maps & spawns, as well as the questionable design choices they made with the MP (not including the egregious SBMM). Honestly my biggest gripe is the tracker perk... there is no counter to a perk that shows the enemy exactly where you are, on way to small maps
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pachiderm
True Bro
Chewing some serious leaves
Posts: 647
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Post by pachiderm on Jun 7, 2020 19:00:33 GMT -5
Can you SBMM nerds calm down long enough to give me an answer for why the riot shield seemingly blocks shotgun blasts to the face even when it's on your back?
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