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Post by Falufa on Oct 10, 2012 9:19:26 GMT -5
What if shotguns simply had no damage drop-off? The pellets would disappear at the maximum range, but they would still deal the same amount of damage at any distance shorter than that.
Spread and pellet count would still be decisive factors on whether you get hitmarkers, but it should at least increase consistency a bit
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Post by -3055- on Oct 10, 2012 10:30:45 GMT -5
What if shotguns simply had no damage drop-off? The pellets would disappear at the maximum range, but they would still deal the same amount of damage at any distance shorter than that. Spread and pellet count would still be decisive factors on whether you get hitmarkers, but it should at least increase consistency a bit oh yeah, like any of the developers are smart enough to believe a simple addition like that would be fair this creates more problems with non-pump actions vs pump actions. now to balance their differences, we have what: range and damage? drop off damages ensures that some non-pump actions will give hitmarkers as opposed to pump actions occasionally (lol) killing (lol) in one shot. (lol) i think pump actions should be given a different dynamic than semis or full autos. don't give pumps drop off, do what i said in my previous posts about explosive hitscan damage, or what brick said about accuracy multipliers with farther away from center doing less damage but middle doing consistent high damage. wait no, these are incompetent developers who can't seem to improve one aspect of a game in around 5 years. just give us damage and range, por favor.
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Post by Falufa on Oct 10, 2012 11:51:00 GMT -5
oh yeah, like any of the developers are smart enough to believe a simple addition like that would be fair this creates more problems with non-pump actions vs pump actions. now to balance their differences, we have what: range and damage? drop off damages ensures that some non-pump actions will give hitmarkers as opposed to pump actions occasionally (lol) killing (lol) in one shot. (lol) You could give non-pumps lower damage per pellet so that they have to land a higher percentage of pellets in order to one-shot. Lets say that the number of pellets that must hit to get the one-shot kill is <50% for pumps and >50% for non-pumps. The pumps would kill in one shot more frequently than the non-pumps, but the latter have a higher rate of fire that allows them to finish the job if the first shot results in a hitmarker. For an example, I'll use the MW3 shotguns and give them a fixed damage per pellet. Spread, pellet count, and rate of fire is the same as in-game and damage is constant up till the in-game max range: USAS - 20 dmg/pellet, 5/9 = 55.5% needed to kill w/ Damage - 28, 4/9 = 44.4% AA12 - 18 dmg/pellet, 6/8 = 75% needed to kill w/ Damage- 25.2, 4/8 = 50% Striker - 25 dmg/pellet, 4/6 = 66.7% needed to kill w/ Damage - 35, 3/6 = 50% KSG - 30 dmg/pellet, 4/9 = 44.4% needed to kill w/ Damage - 42, 3/9 = 33.3% SPAS - 35 dmg/pellet , 3/8 = 37.5% needed to kill w/ Damage - 49 , 3/8 = 37.5% Model 1887 - 40 dmg/pellet, 3/8 = 37.5% needed to kill w/ Damage - 56, 2/8 = 25% Yes, I know these changes will never happen, but that doesn't mean I can't propose theoretical changes for the sake of discussion.
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Post by Disgruntled Jigglypuff on Oct 10, 2012 12:29:51 GMT -5
oh yeah, like any of the developers are smart enough to believe a simple addition like that would be fair this creates more problems with non-pump actions vs pump actions. now to balance their differences, we have what: range and damage? drop off damages ensures that some non-pump actions will give hitmarkers as opposed to pump actions occasionally (lol) killing (lol) in one shot. (lol) You could give non-pumps lower damage per pellet so that they have to land a higher percentage of pellets in order to one-shot. Lets say that the number of pellets that must hit to get the one-shot kill is <50% for pumps and >50% for non-pumps. The pumps would kill in one shot more frequently than the non-pumps, but the latter have a higher rate of fire that allows them to finish the job if the first shot results in a hitmarker. For an example, I'll use the MW3 shotguns and give them a fixed damage per pellet. Spread, pellet count, and rate of fire is the same as in-game and damage is constant up till the in-game max range: USAS - 20 dmg/pellet, 5/9 = 55.5% needed to kill w/ Damage - 28, 4/9 = 44.4% AA12 - 18 dmg/pellet, 6/8 = 75% needed to kill w/ Damage- 25.2, 4/8 = 50% Striker - 25 dmg/pellet, 4/6 = 66.7% needed to kill w/ Damage - 35, 3/6 = 50% KSG - 30 dmg/pellet, 4/9 = 44.4% needed to kill w/ Damage - 42, 3/9 = 33.3% SPAS - 35 dmg/pellet , 3/8 = 37.5% needed to kill w/ Damage - 49 , 3/8 = 37.5% Model 1887 - 40 dmg/pellet, 3/8 = 37.5% needed to kill w/ Damage - 56, 2/8 = 25% Yes, I know these changes will never happen, but that doesn't mean I can't propose theoretical changes for the sake of discussion. This only really positively affects the Model and AA 12. And this nerfs the USAS, hell naw.
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Brick2urface
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 10, 2012 13:14:00 GMT -5
No damage drop is a poor model for shotguns.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 10, 2012 14:24:30 GMT -5
It's a possible model that can work, but it removes control for no reason and does nothing but simplify the variables that affect the shotguns.
So, yeah, it's pretty poor.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Oct 10, 2012 15:27:38 GMT -5
No damage drop is a poor model for shotguns. I agree. Shotguns biggest issues are before damage drop off [well, except the AA12... lol] Without damage drop, shotguns would still be ass close range, but ~450-700 units range they would be OP.
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Post by Falufa on Oct 10, 2012 16:41:55 GMT -5
It's a possible model that can work, but it removes control for no reason and does nothing but simplify the variables that affect the shotguns. So, yeah, it's pretty poor. I was using the KISS principle here, but yeah, I can see what you mean. I still feel like shotguns do too little damage at maximum range. Brick's cone idea sounds interesting, but seems to make damage calculations more complex than it should be. I guess I would have to go with Marvel's suggestion of big spread reduction when ADS, since ADS should always be superior to hipfire when it comes to accuracy and consistency.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 10, 2012 17:22:28 GMT -5
In absence of any novel shotgun ideas like brick's cone radius or 3055's explosive hitscan, it should be obvious that ADSing should provide a dramatic decrease to spread: the player should be rewarded for, a, aiming down the sight and, b, being accurate.
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Post by Falufa on Oct 10, 2012 18:44:32 GMT -5
If, to simulate ADS spread reduction, you halve the pellet spread value on your spreadsheet, then every MW2 shotgun becomes a 1-shot kill at their maximum range (and the Masterkey hilariously becomes the best shotgun if you could ADS with it).
I should point out that doing the same on the MW3 shotguns produces errors, namely that the AA12 and Striker apparently 1-shot at their maximum range if you lower the spread enough.
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Brick2urface
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 10, 2012 18:49:45 GMT -5
The current aa12 in mw3 only does 56 damage at max range if all of its pellets hit while using the damage proficiency. So The aa12 can't one shot even with a 0 degree spread.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 10, 2012 18:56:21 GMT -5
If, to simulate ADS spread reduction, you halve the pellet spread value on your spreadsheet, then every MW2 shotgun becomes a 1-shot kill at their maximum range Remember that spread works exponentially: halving the spread's degrees quarters the spread's area so that's a natural conclusion. So The aa12 can't one shot even with a 0 degree spread. Duh. He was commenting on how my formulas break if you input extreme values, which is something I'm trying to fix.
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kittymulcher
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Post by kittymulcher on Oct 10, 2012 19:55:44 GMT -5
That would be true but you know there's the fact that you can't ADS with the master key attachment. On a different note: USAS-12 is a pretty cool guy.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Oct 10, 2012 20:00:29 GMT -5
The current aa12 in mw3 only does 56 damage at max range if all of its pellets hit while using the damage proficiency. So The aa12 can't one shot even with a 0 degree spread. "So what your saying is the AA-12 is OP, outclasses SMGs and should be nerfed? At distance or at range?" -IW
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 10, 2012 21:00:45 GMT -5
You should be able to ADS with the Masterkey.
You should also be able to ADS with the grenade launcher. In fact, it should be impossible to hip fire the underbarrel grenade launcher.
You should also be able to mount the Masterkey on every primary weapon class, including shotguns. Because when gun don't work, use more gun.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Oct 10, 2012 21:11:33 GMT -5
It would be funny if the shotgun attachment was better than the actual shotgun you could mount it on.
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Post by kirbyderby on Oct 10, 2012 21:39:47 GMT -5
I liked Den's idea; an underbarrel machine gun for your shotgun.
At least I think it was Den, but it was an awesome-sounding idea regardless.
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Post by Falufa on Oct 10, 2012 22:17:00 GMT -5
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PassiveVengance
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Post by PassiveVengance on Oct 11, 2012 10:57:57 GMT -5
This.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Oct 11, 2012 18:32:53 GMT -5
The only way to make the AA-12 good is to give an under mounted MW2 ACR for free.
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richardj
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Post by richardj on Oct 11, 2012 20:46:34 GMT -5
I really think that the biggest problem with the shotguns is in the net code/lag area. I walked up to a stationary target no more than 3 feet away and hit them square in the chest with a model burst yesterday. He turned and killed me. In the killcam--I was seen missing him altogether. This, to me, explains all of the hitmarkers instead of kills because we are centered on our own machines but not centered on target on the host machine. It's amazing but you can tell easily when you will be able to use loadouts like shotties and shields and when you can't, which is sad because I like to play a variety of ways.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 11, 2012 22:01:38 GMT -5
The solution I posited to that was massively increased spread. It solves the net code problem, but it would make shotguns overwhelming easy to use...which I don't view as particularly problematic. I mean, we all know the ACR takes tons of skill to use.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Oct 11, 2012 22:28:32 GMT -5
The solution I posited to that was massively increased spread. It solves the net code problem, but it would make shotguns overwhelming easy to use...which I don't view as particularly problematic. I mean, we all know the ACR takes tons of skill to use. Shotgun skill shouldn't be about aiming right; it should be maneuvering and positioning. You can't run like hell with a shotgun. But if you get enemies on your safe zone, you deserve to easily kill them. That is my opinion anyway.
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Post by citrus on Oct 11, 2012 22:56:49 GMT -5
The only way to make the AA-12 good is to give an under mounted MW2 ACR for free. Damage & Extended Mags is amazing. You should try it. I suppose it's the grind beforehand that leads so many people to boo this gun out, but it's still OK if you play carefully enough.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 11, 2012 23:03:22 GMT -5
Pre-patch AA12 was actually stupid good within its range. Shotgun skill shouldn't be about aiming right; it should be maneuvering and positioning. You can't run like hell with a shotgun. But if you get enemies on your safe zone, you deserve to easily kill them. That is my opinion anyway. It is indeed an opinion and only an opinion, but it is one that I agree with. Call of Duty is overwhelmingly about map knowledge and knowing the enemy than gun skill, a premise that shotguns epitomize perfectly.
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Brick2urface
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 12, 2012 15:24:07 GMT -5
I really think that the biggest problem with the shotguns is in the net code/lag area. I walked up to a stationary target no more than 3 feet away and hit them square in the chest with a model burst yesterday. He turned and killed me. In the killcam--I was seen missing him altogether. This, to me, explains all of the hitmarkers instead of kills because we are centered on our own machines but not centered on target on the host machine. It's amazing but you can tell easily when you will be able to use loadouts like shotties and shields and when you can't, which is sad because I like to play a variety of ways. Explain to me how this was not a significant issue when shotguns were doing 2/8 pellet kills or with the pre patch spas with emags. The close range damge is the largest contributing factor to these problems.
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Brick2urface
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 12, 2012 15:33:46 GMT -5
Again the only problem I have with mega's idea is that what if 2 shotgunners run into eachother? Since the skill requirement would be so low at close range the one with the faster connection wins because he sees the enemy first and doesn't need to take the time to aim. Thats the only issue I have with that. I see skilled shotguners getting mowed down by noobs with fast internet. I also see people tactical loitering in a building because their shotgun is rediculously easy to use in cqc. I see too much room for abuse with the massive spread idea. i would rather overhaul the system entirely than have that done. Frankly just upping the close range damage per pellet to 100 for a short distence would be prefered.
From what I have seen for mw3 at least is that a 2/8 pellet kill and a 5 degree spread would work for close range consistency.
There are better systems (some good ideas we came up with). But in terms of games areleady out, namely mw3 its best to adjust to something we know works. In future games, things can be changed to provide long term solutions.
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Post by citrus on Oct 12, 2012 15:56:12 GMT -5
100 damage per pellet is overkill. Something like 50 is fine. Give shotguns a headshot multiplier. Everything else has them, why not the shotties?
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Post by n1ckx22 on Oct 12, 2012 16:04:49 GMT -5
Maybe give shotguns built in extreme conditioning, and allow them to sprint and shoot at the same time.
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Post by Morshu on Oct 12, 2012 17:54:01 GMT -5
The answer is simple to me. Give the mw2 power if primaries or black ops power if secondaries. The problem with shotguns is that we either had them give the shotguns marshmallow damage/range or make them powerful and also make the secondaries in the case of mw2. We need stopping power mw2 damage or mw3 damage with them being secondaries.
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