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Post by wg4f on Oct 8, 2012 18:59:32 GMT -5
The Striker has a fire rate of 352 RPM and the PP90 1250. At the same shots to kill, that gives us TTKs of 0.341 and 0.096. The Striker fires at 352(6) R(pellets)PM That's 2100+ RPM The Striker fires 12 bullets(pellets) in 0.170 seconds. Just for comparison the PP90 fires 12 bullets in .528 seconds(right?)
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Oct 8, 2012 19:01:51 GMT -5
Huh. Too bad it doesn't take 3 pellets to kill.
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Post by Disgruntled Jigglypuff on Oct 8, 2012 19:05:59 GMT -5
The Striker has a fire rate of 352 RPM and the PP90 1250. At the same shots to kill, that gives us TTKs of 0.341 and 0.096. The Striker fires at 352(6) R(pellets)PM That's 2100+ RPM The Striker fires 12 bullets(pellets) in 0.170 seconds. Just for comparison the PP90 fires 12 bullets in .528 seconds(right?) The Striker fires at 2112 pellets per minute. It only fires at 352 RPM. Next time you say that, think about the AA 12.
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Post by wg4f on Oct 8, 2012 19:06:14 GMT -5
Huh. Too bad it doesn't take 3 pellets to kill. After you use it for a little while there's a proficiency that's works like stopping power 25(1.4)= 35
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Oct 8, 2012 19:07:20 GMT -5
After you use it for a little while, the PP90 gets 54 rounds in the mag and 1250rpm.
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Post by n1ckx22 on Oct 8, 2012 19:45:05 GMT -5
I think increasing the pellets, bullet spread and lowering the damage, while having the same spread each time. Consistency and ease of use to the max. I think someone else said this.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Oct 8, 2012 20:04:17 GMT -5
Just make them consistent at 10ft like the MW2 ones. Thats all I ask.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 8, 2012 20:12:33 GMT -5
The Striker fires at 352(6) R(pellets)PM That's 2100+ RPM The Striker fires 12 bullets(pellets) in 0.170 seconds. Just for comparison the PP90 fires 12 bullets in .528 seconds(right?) While your math is correct, your numbers mean nothing in practice. Shotguns fire many pellets at once, yes, but the pellets are poorly distributed throughout time. The Striker fires 6 pellets every 0.170 seconds. This is absolutely and totally not the same as firing 1 pellet every 0.028 seconds. The PP90, in contrast, fires one bullet every 0.048 seconds The key distinction is that if the Striker misses a shot, it must wait 0.170 seconds before it can fire another shot and thus the pellet count of the two or more shots is irrelevant as it must fire another shot. All other guns, however, can continuously fire single shots: if the PP90 misses a shot, it can fire another shot in 0.048 seconds. You said that the Striker fires two shots in 0.170 seconds and the PP90 12 shots in 0.528 s. This is correct. The distinction is that with 2 shots, the Striker can only kill two people, ignoring collats. With 12 shots, the PP90 can kill six. A better comparison is to say that the PP90 can fire four bullets in 0.144 seconds, thus taking less time than the Striker to kill 2 people. wg4f, you look like you're new here. I would like to welcome you to the Den forums. I think increasing the pellets, bullet spread and lowering the damage, while having the same spread each time. Consistency and ease of use to the max. I think someone else said this. I did. In the third post of this thread.
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Post by kirbyderby on Oct 9, 2012 0:02:58 GMT -5
I think shotguns should just go back to being secondaries like MW2; they just have too much competition in SMGs, especially since it feels like every CoD has to throw in an SMG that's super good at CQC even compared to other SMGs. MW2 had a great balance between secondaries in this regard. I think Den might have even posted about it at some point. Okay it doesn't relate directly to shotguns, but I like it so I'm gonna throw the quote out there anyway. But answer this - why would you ever pick a USP.45 over a, say, PP2000? The logical answer is unless you're looking for a challenge, you wouldn't. Ever. For superior single shot power at a distance while likely holding a primary more suited for close combat, for the faster RaiseTime allowing me to minimize downtime, for finishing off my enemy instead of reloading, for the Tactical Knife, for going akimbo and treating it like a long range shotgun and potentially getting a zero second kill up close with their more reliably tight spread. NO.If something is not worth using for its own merits, it is not worth having in the game at all. There can be playstyles in which you treat your weapons as disposable (for example an SMG and Pistol with high output but low capacity - no Scavenging for bullets, intended for speed and picking up enemy weapons as you go along), but there should never EVER be a weapon that is useless just because it is in weapon slot 2. All weapons in both primary and secondary slots are there to compliment one another, to make a whole class, not be a placeholder for another primary. My tertiary pistol and secondary SMG in Soldier of Fortune 2 (just over ten years old now) were my "primary" weapons. I hardly ever touched whatever I put in the gun slot labled as Primary. Why? Because the 1911 and the M3A1: 1. Were useful and almost equally as effective as the bigger weapons in the primary slot 2. Complimented one another by sharing .45 ammo and being effective in two different scenarios Though the AK74 in SOFII was considered the statistically best automatic weapon in the game, that didn't stop the rest of the weapons being used with almost the same frequency. The weapons being in the Primary weapon slot in SOF2 did not dictate that Secondary weapons and sidearms be useless. Every weapon in Unreal and Quake had their place, none were obsoleted once you picked up something more explosive. The Chaingun/Shotgun/Grenade excelled in places the Lightning/Railgun/Rockets do not in Quake. The Shock Rifle combo versus the similarly linear Sniper Rifle gave each different strengths. The Dual Enforcers with their higher accuracy and headshot bonus were not meted out by the Minigun's higher ammo consumption and base damage output. The entire arsenal in these older games were used frequently. Why would you wish for developers to deliberately make crap that will knowingly go unused? Nothing should ever exist just to be thrown away. Wasting one's time on creating something that no player will care for willfully using is stupid. I use pistols in MW2 because they have advantages that the Machine Pistols and Shotguns do not. I could do well with them versus enemies using primary weapons because they were effective. I had pistols in my Black Ops classes because it was my only other option to crap even-more-throwaway launchers that are not resupplied by Scavenger. Do not encourage bad game design. "This thing should suck because this other thing is good", "this thing should be better because it is a higher level / costs more" is stupid, the kind of stupid that has everyone using a fraction of a game's arsenal. Shotguns in the secondary slot can complement classes rather than compete with other primaries that are more versatile.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 9, 2012 1:00:18 GMT -5
That's a matter of taste.
There can be primary shotguns.
There can be secondary shotguns.
(Even Black Ops had a secondary shotgun, the Masterkey. And, honestly, it wasn't that bad.)
There is room for both.
But just as a primary SMG should completely outclass a secondary SMG (game usually calls them machine pistols), a primary shotgun should completely outclass a secondary shotgun.
If a "balanced" secondary shotgun can consistently one shot up to 700 units, a balanced primary shotgun should be able to kill up to distances that make 700 units look paltry in comparison.
Remember that Black Ops 2 will make secondaries cost less than primaries in a much more tangible way than previous Call of Duties, even those featuring Overkill. Having secondary versions of every primary in BO2 (i.e. a version of the gun that is fulfills its role but is worse in every conceivable way) would not be redundant, but increase class diversity.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Oct 9, 2012 2:16:36 GMT -5
the revolver is supposed to shoot 20 gauge rounds, right? That technically is a secondary shotgun
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Post by Disgruntled Jigglypuff on Oct 9, 2012 2:25:50 GMT -5
the revolver is supposed to shoot 20 gauge rounds, right? That technically is a secondary shotgun 28 gauge actually, get it right it can only shoot that. Which means it IS a secondary shotgun.
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Post by -3055- on Oct 9, 2012 12:43:41 GMT -5
Please note that I didn't read any comment. So I don't know if this has been posted before:
When I first started black ops, the first gun I used was the olympia, since I thought, as a shotgun, I can hipfire and my terrible accuracy wont seem so bad.
Not the case. Shotguns, in contrast to their spread, still have a central area that WILL MOST LIKELY do the most damage.
Although this might be laggier game, I think shotguns should be given a claymore explosive damage. They do uniform conal damage from reticle to reticle. Ads to increase damage over range and overall range, but it now acts like a sniper.
This way they'll actually have a niche for close range encounters.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 9, 2012 13:31:21 GMT -5
Shotguns, in contrast to their spread, still have a central area that WILL MOST LIKELY do the most damage. Although this might be laggier game, I think shotguns should be given a claymore explosive damage. They do uniform conal damage from reticle to reticle. No one has commented on this, but I highly suspect that hip spread is biased towards the center of the spread and probably follows some kind of Gaussian distribution. From a statistically perspective, this has very little impact on the analysis that I performed so I'm not going to worry about it. (It increases pellet concentration within a smaller portion of the cone, but decreases it in the outer portion of the cone.) Making shotguns function as explosives would have no bearing on lag: the chopper gunner fires an explosive hit scan at 625 RPM. That tweak is not a bad idea: it would be a very quick way to ensure, effectively, 100% pellet distribution across the spread and we could tweak it to completely replicate traditional shotgun function. The only issue would be penetration through cover, which presumably doesn't work on explosives. Because an explosive radius only hits the target once, the damage done would be extremely high. For example, a one shot kill would deal 100 damage to every single point inside the cone of fire. A shotgun with this design would instantly kill everything and anything inside of the circle when fired, every time, all of the time. The only exception would be lag. Shotguns would cease to work through cover, but since the "pellet" distribution is even and "pellets" can't hit the target more than once, it doesn't matter how much of the target is exposed: so long as some part of the target can be viewed, you can shoot him. I like this. Because this tweak would suddenly make shotguns absurdly consistent, you can now balance them very easily. All you have to do is say X shotgun should be a 1 shot kill up to X units, a 2 shot kill up to Y units, and so forth. You can then tweak spread to make it easier/harder to hit targets. For example, we could make a pump action that has 15 spread and does 100 damage up to 750 units. This means that it would kill everything and anything in one shot that has even a single pixel of its hitbox within that spread up to that distance. Too powerful? Oh, yeah, but you can see how we can easily tweak this using the exact same principles as every other weapon in the game. We now know exactly how many shots a shotgun will take at a given distance. If a shotgun is too easy to use, lower its spread and vice versa. 3055, major props: this is actually a really good idea.
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Oct 9, 2012 13:36:06 GMT -5
Genius actually. I would like to see a shotgun that's not a fucking gamble everytime you pull the trigger.
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Post by wg4f on Oct 9, 2012 13:44:20 GMT -5
wg4f, you look like you're new here. I would like to welcome you to the Den forums. Thanks man. I figured I'd make an account before the BO2 release
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danoski666
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Post by danoski666 on Oct 9, 2012 13:56:31 GMT -5
Wise move. Definietely the best place you can go to for interesting company and news all-round.
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 9, 2012 14:24:12 GMT -5
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Post by mmacola on Oct 9, 2012 14:58:30 GMT -5
Just imagine lag: You shoot, you receive damage
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 9, 2012 15:07:08 GMT -5
That is almost exactly the same idea I said a while ago. I did see your post at the time and it amounts to a very similar idea, but it lacks the simplicity of just making shotguns explosive. Regardless, I really like the idea of making shotguns fire explosive hitscans. You can make shotguns, finally, that are guaranteed kills. No more hitmarkers or not even hitmarkers. If the guy is inside the spread, he’s dead. It is never the gun’s fault if it fails to kill. Auto: 15 spread, 600 RPM, 1 shot kill up to 200 units, 2 shot kill up to 400, 3 to 600, and so forth. Sawed-off DB: 65 spread (can’t miss in CQC), 1 shot kill up to 400 units. Pump: 15 spread, 100 RPM, 1 shot kill up to 700 units, 2 shot kill up to 1000. Slow semi: 15 spread, 200 RPM, 1 shot kill up to 500 units, 2 shot kill to 750. Etc. Use your imagination. With this new scheme, stats can be very easily delineated and understood. We can clearly see at what point shotguns will cease to be uncompetitive against SMGs and ARs while their huge spreads allows them complete dominance in CQC. Spreads sound too big? Remember that the knife slash has a spread of 10 and the knife lunge has a spread of 32.5. Thirty-Foxtrotting-two. Have a choke attachment that increases range, but decreases spread (which makes it harder to hit targets): Pump, Tight: 2 spread, 1 shot up to 1500 units. Just imagine lag: You shoot, you receive damage We say "explosive" because they follow the same mechanics as far as the game is concerned, but it's not actually an explosive in the same sense a grenade is, just as a shot from a chopper gunner is not an "explosive" in a traditional sense (ex. FJ doesn't protect against it). Even if it were a traditional explosive in the same vein as a claymore, you would still be unable to damage yourself with this kind of shotgun: lag would change where your cone of fire is located...but it would also change your location relative to said cone so you would never be inside of it.
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Brick2urface
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 9, 2012 15:09:45 GMT -5
Just imagine lag: You shoot, you receive damage LOL that reminds me I blew my own head off in gears of war 1. Because of the wierd bullet lag the shots wouldn't come out of your gun right away. So one really bad lag game I shot a sniper at someone down a hall, rolled forward immediately after firing, and as soon as my caracter stood up the sniper shot actually shot from where I originally fired it right into the back of my head. Funniest death i have ever taken by a large margin.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 9, 2012 15:15:10 GMT -5
I talking out of my ass here, but I think the only way that could happen is client side hit detection.
You didn't fire your weapon until the host said you did...but the host took so long to say you fired the gun that you were now in the bullet's path.
With host based hit detection, you would have been at the same place as where the bullet had been fired and no problem.
But because the game, presumably, uses client based hit detection, the client sees you as being hit by the bullet, which the host informs you as having fired previously.
Someone else more qualified please elaborate.
With explosive hit scan shotguns, we can dramatically reduce the one shot kill ranges of the shotguns because, a, we now know exactly what those ranges are both explicitly and relative to all other weapons and, b, shotguns are now 100% consistent.
The opposite is also true: we can dramatically extend their minimum damage ranges because we now know exactly where it will possess that damage and how long it will take to kill.
For example, we could make a pump that takes five hits to kill. At any range. Period. Which would be balanced by the fact that it's a four second kill. Because shotguns tend to have very poor fire rates compared to other weapons, even the semis and full auto could have infinite range and still be balanced (for example, the AA12 takes just over a second to empty its magazine).
Any ideas on what explosive hit scan shotguns should do when ADSed?
3055 suggested just increasing the damage (i.e. the range) which is the obvious answer, but I'm not sure if the game natively supports that.
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 9, 2012 15:30:31 GMT -5
The problem with strait explosive damage model is that it does not reward accuracy, nor punish inaccuracy at certain ranges. The spreads proposed are far too large to be implamented along side a system where if one mollecule of the enemy is inside the spread full damage is rewarded.
There is no need to have a 30 degree spread when it kills anything inside it. That makes it entirely connection based like the knife is. You don't have to aim well so whoever has the better connection wins. I see you first due to lag, i win and vice versa. There needs to be some skill buffer that reqires fast but accurate shooting to win. Thats what I don't like with the explosive model. There needs to be some accuracy insentive at every range or else it will become entirely reliant on connections instead of skills.
This idea i needs some tweaking, but I really like its possibilities.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 9, 2012 15:39:09 GMT -5
I was just tossing numbers out to show possible weapon designs: virtually everything I proposed was wildly overpowered. ...but a primary weapon that does zero damage past 400 units and has a two round capacity should destroy anything and everything placed in front of it in a single shot and so thus wouldn't be that OP. The knife has 32 spread and kills everything inside that spread from up to 128 units. What's wrong with a shotgun that does the exact same thing? (Shotguns fire instant hit scans, but how many times have you been killed during a lunge?) Virtually all play in CoD is highly ping sensitive so that's a poor argument. (Host Pro is the best perk in the game. Period.) There needs to be some accuracy insentive at every range or else it will become entirely reliant on connections instead of skills. Here's my logic: In close quarters, shotguns should rape. Huge spread is justified. If two equally skilled players encounter each other at 400 units, the guy with the shotgun should win every time, all the time. At range, make shotguns do ludicrously low damage (ex. my four second kill suggestion above) such that the huge spread isn’t a buff because of how long it takes to kill someone. I, too, am concerned that while this greatly enables us to make shotguns extremely viable weapons, it also limits our ability to reward skilled use and accuracy with them. I am thinking about ways to remedy that. If it is possible within the game’s framework, we could make it so that ADSing increases range…but reduces spread. Thus rewarding accuracy at range.
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Post by blues27xx on Oct 9, 2012 15:43:33 GMT -5
Just imagine lag: You shoot, you receive damage LOL that reminds me I blew my own head off in gears of war 1. Because of the wierd bullet lag the shots wouldn't come out of your gun right away. So one really bad lag game I shot a sniper at someone down a hall, rolled forward immediately after firing, and as soon as my caracter stood up the sniper shot actually shot from where I originally fired it right into the back of my head. Funniest death i have ever taken by a large margin. Try getting mowed down by your own sentry gun in Blops. I wasn't sure whether to laugh or rage.
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Brick2urface
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 9, 2012 15:56:41 GMT -5
Thats why I like my original proposal more that the strait explosive damage one. Now the problem is you would not be able to just do what I suggest in cod because that mechanic doesn't exist yet but it wouldn't be too hard to make from scratch.
The shotgun fires out a cone the same with as the spread as the reticule displays.
The cone measures the distence to the target and the area of the target inside the cone is measured then damage is calculated accordingly.
The the damage of the cone would be really strong at point blank range so only a small fraction of the enemy needs to be inside, but weaker at range so all of the enemy must be inside.
The only problem with this is enemies that are turned sideways or proned have a much smaller area. A solution would be some sort of accuracy modifier. A grid is overlayed on the spread that measures the distence from the center of the reticule to the torso and head hit boxes, the close to the center of the reticule the torso and head hitboxes are the more the damage is multiplied.
So the total damage dealth would be a formula like {[(Area of target inside of reticule/ total area of reticule)/(range modifier to base damage)] x (accuracy multiplier)}x (Base damage)
So the closer the target, the more area the target occupies in the reticule, and the closer you are to aiming at the torso and head hitboxes the more damage will be done to the target.
If the target is centered in the reticule massive damage will be done, allowing for perfect shots to be rewarded with more range. Obviously the exact numbers for this system are really hard to come up with but I can see this working really well.
What I mean with connections governing that is what if two shotgun users confront eachother? The one with the better connection wins because he has more time to react and the need to aim properly is almost non existant. There needs to be a way for a skilled player to beat an unskilled player in this scenario.
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Post by Amirror on Oct 9, 2012 15:58:09 GMT -5
Remember though, it's gotta be balanced for hardcore too.
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Post by Marvel4 on Oct 9, 2012 16:03:06 GMT -5
I don't like this idea at all.
Shotguns aren't explosives. It doesn't make sense to make them deal explosive damage. It would also make them way too easy to use. In my opinion, it's not a problem that shotguns aren't perfectly consistent when fired from the hip. Just make them much more accurate when ADS.
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 9, 2012 16:04:53 GMT -5
I don't like this idea at all. Shotguns aren't explosives. It doesn't make sense to make them deal explosive damage. It would also make them way too easy to use. In my opinion, it's not a problem that shotguns aren't perfectly consistent when fired from the hip. Just make them much more accurate when ADS. The system I proposed does both. It makes it so you get the perfect consistency of the explosive model with the skill requirement of the current model.
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Post by kirbyderby on Oct 9, 2012 16:20:03 GMT -5
Remember though, it's gotta be balanced for Touch Football too. I don't really see how that's a problem considering your average high damage AR or ACR can consistently 1SK anywhere on the map. Touch football balance is already way out of whack.
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