Brick2urface
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Putting the "laughter" back in "slaughter"
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 9, 2012 16:26:46 GMT -5
you dont balance weapons for hc. You balance them for core, then hope for the best or change the health in hc.
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Post by Disgruntled Jigglypuff on Oct 9, 2012 16:28:17 GMT -5
No, you just change min damage from 30 to 29.
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Post by Marvel4 on Oct 9, 2012 16:33:52 GMT -5
Health in HC should just be 50, so sniper rifles aren't completely useless.
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Brick2urface
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Putting the "laughter" back in "slaughter"
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 9, 2012 16:36:36 GMT -5
Thats what I thought when I looked at hc. Why would you use a sniper when every lmg and several assault rifles insta kill anyway?
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 9, 2012 16:44:01 GMT -5
I agree that your idea is superior in every way except the difficulty of implementing it. What I mean with connections governing that is what if two shotgun users confront eachother? The one with the better connection wins because he has more time to react ...but a superior connection virtually always wins in all other aspects of the game as well. This is not exclusive to shotguns in any way and is intrinsic to a multiplayer shooter. Remember though, it's gotta be balanced for Touch Football too. Here's a joke: balance in Touch Football. Here's another joke: the MW2 UMP in Touch Football. Why would you use a sniper when every lmg and several assault rifles insta kill anyway? Zoom advantage. Shotguns aren't explosives. It doesn't make sense to make them deal explosive damage. It would also make them way too easy to use. And the idea proposed here doesn't make them explosives. It makes them behave akin to explosives. Does the chopper gunner fire explosives or does it fire very large hit scans? The cool thing about this is that we have complete control on the accuracy requirement of the shotguns. For example, you think that 10 spread would be too big. Why not give a shotgun 1 spread? It would be hard to hit a target, but, hey, if you center your target, he's dead. If 1 spread is too low in practice, increase the spread. Still too easy to hit your target? Give it 0.75 spread. And so forth. Spread can be changed and tweaked until the weapon is easy to pick up and use, but difficult to master and rewarding of skill. Don't think of the shotgun as firing an explosive: think of it as firing a very large hit scan (which is exactly what it is doing). Beyond this basic premise, there are a wide variety of shotgun designs and they can even coexist with each other in the same game. For example: Loose pump: 60 RPM, 15 spread, 1 shot kill to 300 units. Tight pump: 60 RPM, 1 spread, 1 shot kill to 1000 units. Two very different weapons that fulfill two very different roles. It would also make them way too easy to use. Said this before to brick, but this is very poor argument when the knife kills almost instantly from 128 units within a 32 degree cone. And that's before you even consider the PP90 RF.
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Amirror
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Call of Duty! Ah, Grrr, Ohhh… Argh… Yaaagh!… It’s not right… not right… not right…
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Post by Amirror on Oct 9, 2012 17:17:31 GMT -5
That's assuming none of the auto ARs and SMGs can kill @ one shot every range. Then again it wouldn't be so bad, Hardcore is always imbalanced like you guys said.
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Amirror
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Post by Amirror on Oct 9, 2012 17:19:15 GMT -5
Idea you guys came up with sounds great. But I doubt 3arc or IW would use it, especially for shotguns.
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Brick2urface
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 9, 2012 17:51:39 GMT -5
You can equip acogs/thermals on other weapons as well to get a zoom advantage. Snipers don't really have a point now in hc.
Knife kills inbetween .18 seconds and .25 seconds depending normal, tac knife, or akimbo usp setups. That is quite a bit longer than 0.
A really large spread is not needed for the systems we are proposing. They wouldn't need to be much larger (if any larger) than the standard size now to insure that even in the worst lag the targets would recieve lethal damage in close range.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 9, 2012 18:14:53 GMT -5
Totally off-topic, but, in MW3, no optic has as high as a zoom level as a sniper scope, besides the variable scope, which of course is exclusive to snipers (this was not true in previous games, where indeed most other weapons could achieve sniper zoom with the proper optic). I absolutely agree that a sniper in HC is lunacy, but there is some slight justification to it.
I'll admit that 0.25 is a pretty bad approxmiation of "almost instant", but the knife is still extremely potent, easy to use, and always available to the player. A primary shotgun should absolutely decimate a knife as they compete in a very similar niche: extreme CQC.
(Honestly, I'd say nerf the knife rather buff the doo-doo out of shotguns, which I think most players would agree with.)
However, as I said in my previous post, the explosive hit scan idea doesn't require large spreads. It can work with any size spread and still be of value, allowing us to replicate all current shotgun functionality while making available a whole bunch of new ones. I proposed two different shotgun designs that would both be interesting and viable weapons with completely opposite spread values.
With this concept, it's (unforunately or not, depending on your perspective) a consequence that, as a target becomes further from you, it becomes exponentially easier to hit, which is the inverse of what happens as you attempt to hip fire a distant target with conventional weapons.
To counter this, damage drop off would have to be exponentially fast after the initial effective range, which would prevent shotguns from being too easy to use at range.
Again, this applies regardless if spread is large or small.
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Slick
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Taking the piss
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Post by Slick on Oct 9, 2012 18:41:52 GMT -5
Not to worry. If shotguns are ever effective by den forum standards again, the quick sniper codfags will see to it their sniper rifles will not be challenged for long.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 9, 2012 18:56:25 GMT -5
Not to worry. If shotguns are ever effective by den forum standards again, the quick sniper codfags will see to it their sniper rifles will not be challenged for long. Absurd as this is, I am certain you are correct. A sniper rifle can one shot at any distance, yet our community finds it unacceptable for a shotgun, which takes one second to rechamber, to do the same up to 875 units.
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Brick2urface
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Putting the "laughter" back in "slaughter"
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 9, 2012 19:16:27 GMT -5
The spread hurts an accurate shooter, that why perfectly centered shots can hitmarker, so spread isn't a big plus
They have no recoil because of the low fire rate, the barrett fired at spas rpm had no recoil.
Mw3 snipers can have 99% movement rate as opposed to 100% with shotguns. 1% is not a big advantage.
Snipers can also one shot kill at any range so the little bit of preperation it takes to ready the sniper rifle is not a huge hit.
Or you can just go prone with the barrett and have a possible 1200 rpm death cannon. Fun times for all.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 9, 2012 19:26:25 GMT -5
All shotguns have pretty high recoil, but, like brick said, the slower ones aren't affected as much, if at all, due to the slow fire rate. Hence why they've historically always had grip attachments.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Oct 9, 2012 19:26:29 GMT -5
Lets also completely forget that SMGee's have 0 spread, effectively no recoil(from the hip), faster movement speed, and don't need to wait a quarter second to be able to fire a reasonable shot.
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Slick
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Taking the piss
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Post by Slick on Oct 9, 2012 19:38:29 GMT -5
I'll railgun your ass any day I have the perfect video for you, on my harddrive that is. It perfectly demonstrates why this fad is just silly. (I know you're just having fun, but I honestly do.) But, I will admit that on a fair host, watching a 1v1 quick snipe private match fight was actually kind of fun. The problem with them is it's highly dependent on the honor system which codfags are bad with. Quick snipes also suffer from inconsistent hit detection, like shotguns. MW2 Model is the only weapon pre patch in cod history to beat spam weapons, which also beat back commando quite nicely. Once it was sufficiently nerfed, the MLC kids who also whined about the models went on to abuse their mlc unchallenged.
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Brick2urface
True Bro
Putting the "laughter" back in "slaughter"
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 9, 2012 19:40:15 GMT -5
Shotguns are never the wrong gun. They are a man's weapon. Theres never a wrong time to be a man.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 9, 2012 19:45:45 GMT -5
Everyone knows that SMGs outclass shotguns. This is (or was) about quickscoping being better than shotties (Though now it seems to be about the entire sniper). I'm not saying that shotguns are balanced with other guns, but imo snipers do not overwhelm them nearly as much as others seem to think. Better way to view it: a sniper is overwhelmingly more powerful than all other weapons at infinite range. The same should be true of a shotgun at point blank. In practice, a sniper can be used competently within shotgun range by some players. Again, the inverse is not true: a shotgun does zero damage past its range and no amount of player skill can compensate for that. Are snipers terrible in close quarters? Yes. Duh. No doo-doo. But snipers can be used at any range and player skill can compensate for their weaknesses. None of that applies to a shotgun. MW2 Model is the only weapon pre patch in cod history to beat spam weapons, which also beat back commando quite nicely. Once it was sufficiently nerfed, the MLC kids who also whined about the models went on to abuse their mlc unchallenged. Akimbo Models suck, actually. Even before the patch. Before the patch, the single was better. No, really. I'm serious.The primary reason why the akimbo 1887s were perceived as overpowered was their exceedingly low skill requirement: they weren't that powerful in the scheme of MW2's shotguns, but, due to their massive spread, you could be way off target and still obtain a one shot kill. (This same principle applies to the Rangers. An AA12 is almost always better than akimbo Rangers, but akimbo Rangers are exceedingly forgiving in regards to aim. This gets back to the little debate brick and I (and marvel) had in regards to large spread values: they can dramatically affect consistency and player perception thereof. You probably wouldn't believe me if I told you that the AA12 was stronger than the Rangers, now would you?) The exception to this is if marvel was correct about a glitch affecting the 1887s: he said that they were given 2000-600 instead of 200-600 range, meaning that the pellets always did 35 damage up to 600 units. In this case, uh, yes, the 1887s were broken.See below: akimbo Models had a range of 2000-800 pre-patch. Gnarly.
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Post by -3055- on Oct 9, 2012 19:54:57 GMT -5
The spread hurts an accurate shooter, that why perfectly centered shots can hitmarker, so spread isn't a big plus They have no recoil because of the low fire rate, the barrett fired at spas rpm had no recoil. Mw3 snipers can have 99% movement rate as opposed to 100% with shotguns. 1% is not a big advantage. Snipers can also one shot kill at any range so the little bit of preperation it takes to ready the sniper rifle is not a huge hit. Or you can just go prone with the barrett and have a possible 1200 rpm death cannon. Fun times for all. im replying to all of your previous replies too, not just this one and thanks megaqwerty the reason i chose a explosive-like hitscan shot over your proposed idea was so that shotguns, in close quarters, didn't need to be 100% accurate to osk. as long as they are within the boundaries, they can manage to osk. then again, they can make another pump action that acts the way yours does, and give that higher range and slightly more damage towards the center aim, exactly as you proposed, for the people who value accuracy. the main problems, with shotguns in cods, is their inability to be consistent like every other gun and terrible ttks at a far range (which, to be honest, i find excusable. they're still fun.) and to clarify: no, i don't want them shooting explosives. i want them to act like explosives, they can still visualize the blooms and effects BO and MWs like to add. it would just, in coding, work like a explosive. another help to shotguns, i think, wouldn't just be a simple "add range, add consistency, lower spread" change. how about flinch differs between weapons? snipers and shotguns have the highest flinch, and smgs have the lowest flinch. also, lmgs, smgs, ars, and snipers all have the same sprint - to - walk gun raise time, but shotguns have a faster one? they only work in cqc, they should have a bonus. instead of making up for it's lack in range (which any other weapon can do) how about we improve on it's (not really) effective ranges?
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Post by Marvel4 on Oct 9, 2012 20:03:15 GMT -5
The exception to this is if Marvel was correct about a glitch affecting the 1887s: he said that they were given 200 0-600 instead of 200-600 range, meaning that the pellets always did 35 damage up to 600 units. In this case, uh, yes, the 1887s were broken. Actually, it had a range of 2000- 800. It was certainly supposed to be 200-800, but they "fixed" it by reducing its range to 200-600 (200-450 with Akimbo).
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 9, 2012 20:07:47 GMT -5
A single Model fires 8 pellets with 4 spread. Two Models fire 16 pellets with 9 spread.
That's a spread increase of 506%. 100% more pellets mean nothing.
Unless, of course, your shotguns are glitched to not have damage drop off.
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Brick2urface
True Bro
Putting the "laughter" back in "slaughter"
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 9, 2012 20:08:16 GMT -5
3055
you can make my model for shotguns do 100 damage per pixel at point blank ranges too.
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Brick2urface
True Bro
Putting the "laughter" back in "slaughter"
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Post by Brick2urface on Oct 9, 2012 20:11:38 GMT -5
they over nerfed the models terribly. That was really disapointing. I never got to play with the pre patch models.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 9, 2012 20:13:17 GMT -5
With SA, pre-patch Models could "one" shot (firing both guns at once) up to 740 800 units. Mmm, baby. Firing a single shotgun would kill up to 523 673 units. Which is greater than the pellet range of the nerfed gun.
I concur with brick that it was a gosh darn golly gee whiz shame I never got to play with these.
marvel, did the single Model also "suffer" from the same glitch? Because that would have made it superior to the Spas for the marksman shotgunner.
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Slick
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Post by Slick on Oct 9, 2012 20:15:50 GMT -5
Well I did, fucking fun. I didn't have that much fun with a shotgun again until mw3's striker came along, thankfully still usable, barely.
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Amirror
True Bro
Call of Duty! Ah, Grrr, Ohhh… Argh… Yaaagh!… It’s not right… not right… not right…
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Post by Amirror on Oct 9, 2012 20:16:11 GMT -5
No wonder pre-patch Model akimbo never felt stronger with SP than without SP. I feel stupid. It all makes sense now.
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Post by Marvel4 on Oct 9, 2012 20:16:30 GMT -5
A single Model fires 8 pellets with 4 spread. Two Models fire 16 pellets with 9 spread. Before it was patched, it had a spread of 7 with Akimbo. That's not too bad for 16 pellets and a damage of 35 and actually makes it easier to use.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 9, 2012 20:17:57 GMT -5
I updated my previous post in light of that. Holy doo-doo, these were retarded powerful.
...still not as good as OMADC though.
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Post by Marvel4 on Oct 9, 2012 20:20:18 GMT -5
did the single Model also "suffer" from the same glitch? Yes.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 9, 2012 20:21:18 GMT -5
Well, there you have it: pre-patch, the single 1887 shat all over the Spas...so long as you didn't have SP. Quick question. Has anyone actually found some math behind how much a change in spread relates to the probability of pellets hitting? In the first post, I made a spreadsheet that shows the ranges at which an X shot to kill is most probable. If you want to see how the sausage was made, click on any of the cells under Range for X Shots to kill. I can explain the math in more detail, if you want. That would probably be a good opportunity for bros to spot mistakes in my logic.
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Post by Megaqwerty on Oct 9, 2012 21:28:02 GMT -5
looks like a reasonable amount of effort to me, I'll take it! You actually only quoted the first line. Click inside the formula box and it should show you the entire formula.
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