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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Nov 11, 2012 1:50:36 GMT -5
^Which will make them semi usable, then the community complains and then they'll get nurfed further into oblivion in the next CoD.
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Post by UrbaneVirtuoso on Nov 11, 2012 2:00:51 GMT -5
And yet I've read that the R870 was a more reliable Stakeout. Placebo much?
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Nov 11, 2012 2:02:13 GMT -5
And yet I've read that the R870 was a more reliable Stakeout. Placebo much? They've only played in LAN and offline VS Bots. It was called Lag Ops for a reason.
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Post by Judge_St3vo on Nov 11, 2012 2:03:49 GMT -5
And yet I've read that the R870 was a more reliable Stakeout. Placebo much? Maybe because hit detection has been improved? Anyone know the what the ranges for the shotguns were in blops 1? Less than 25m but I don't know how that converts to the 500 they are in blops 2.
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Amirror
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Post by Amirror on Nov 11, 2012 2:04:30 GMT -5
Why did they make the hip-fire spread on those 3 shotguns so bad? I know it's so there would be reason to ADS, but it didn't need to get that large of a spread. (Hip-fire spreads are nearly larger than MW3 AA-12 spread)
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Nov 11, 2012 2:04:41 GMT -5
Actually the Saiga is pretty cemented as best buckshot shotgun(So KSG12 is not included) as all appear to have the same range and spread, none can 1hk, so you might as well go w/ the spam one. Hmm. Where have I seen that before?
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Post by Judge_St3vo on Nov 11, 2012 2:04:46 GMT -5
And yet I've read that the R870 was a more reliable Stakeout. Placebo much? They've only played in LAN and offline VS Bots. It was called Lag Ops for a reason. People have been streaming since MP servers went live. I've been watching a bunch. Not many people using shotguns. But when I've seen people use them, its been pretty bad.
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Post by quickbuck on Nov 11, 2012 8:07:27 GMT -5
Is there any solid data on the shotgun hipspreads yet?
I mean they look very large, but because of the moving change it is hard to tell exactly how large.
How do they compare to the orginal Black Ops (which were 5-8 except stakeout 4-7) with those if you were stationary or moving slowly with steady aim they were usable? Are they much bigger in Blops 2?
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Post by quickbuck on Nov 11, 2012 8:14:32 GMT -5
Anyone know the what the ranges for the shotguns were in blops 1? Less than 25m but I don't know how that converts to the 500 they are in blops 2. Stakeout was technically out to about 17m the others all about 15m. if the scale is the same then 500 units is about 12.5m, which means long barrel (assuming 1.25%) will get you almost precisely to the Black Ops 1 ranges. So you get to use up a perk for what you previously had for free, way to go devs!
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Nov 11, 2012 10:25:30 GMT -5
the attachment system would be interesting if the long barrel wasn't there
with a bit of luck they'll get round to giving shotties a bit more range. Even infinity wart got too it
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Nov 11, 2012 10:52:33 GMT -5
@mao-C However you did not need Big Ammo. No shotgun in MW3 needed Big Ammo(post big ammo nurf) to do well bar the AA-12. In BLOPS2 you WILL need Long Barrel or have a pump action AA-12.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Nov 11, 2012 10:59:31 GMT -5
You're missing the point, now all shotguns have a larger opportunity cost than ever.
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Nov 11, 2012 11:21:58 GMT -5
Look here Mao-SS, lets take the MTAR, lets say I use fast mags on it and therefore my reloads are twice as fast. Pretty good deal for one point. I use a R870 and use Long Barrel on it, I have now made my shotgun normal. See what I mean?
You have to spend extra points just to compensate for weaknesses of your shotgun while every other gun uses those same points to make their guns even more domineering.
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Post by quickbuck on Nov 11, 2012 11:28:40 GMT -5
okay two things here. Just because attachments are on par with perks does not mean that attachments "use up" perks. Also, keep in mind that in the past, exmags was the attachment used on shotties because the rest were near worthless. This time shotguns actually use their attachments so it still puts them on par with previous generation shotties. I'm not saying shotties are good, just that you're overexaggerating. 1 - um, in Black Ops 1 there were no ex mags on shotguns at all. In MW3 post nerf it was largely redundant save on striker and USAS, you certainly didn't NEED it. 2 - perhaps I should have used the word 'attachment' instead of perk, yes. but in point of fact, because they directly compete, you are very much using up perks. In fact, since the spreads appear to be larger as well, shotgunners are forced to use two attachments: lazer sight and long barrel, just to be at what should be the stock gun, so to use any other attachment after that costs a further 2 points, effectively half of your pick ten spent on a single attachment weapon! 3 - "overexaggerating" is superfluous phraseology, since any amount of exaggeration would generally be regarded as in excess... However, on this occassion, none was present.
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Post by quickbuck on Nov 11, 2012 11:29:52 GMT -5
Look here Mao-SS, lets take the MTAR, lets say I use fast mags on it and therefore my reloads are twice as fast. Pretty good deal for one point. I use a R870 and use Long Barrel on it, I have now made my shotgun normal. See what I mean? You have to spend extra points just to compensate for weaknesses of your shotgun while every other gun uses those same points to make their guns even more domineering. ^ this
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Nov 11, 2012 11:59:20 GMT -5
You would be right Mao-C if this was a previous CoD, but in this game all previous mortal kombat perks (QD/SA/Stalker/ect.) are now attachments.
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Post by Wonder Showzen on Nov 11, 2012 16:11:45 GMT -5
It could've been worse for shotguns No. Not having to ADS has been the shotgun class's biggest edge over the SMGee's in CQC and now that they have to ADS even w/ Steady aim while SMGee's are better from the hip than ever. ^This. You said what I was thinking.
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Post by quickbuck on Nov 11, 2012 16:31:06 GMT -5
um, no.
I didn't 'argue' anything:
Judge_St3vo asked how 500u compared to Blops 1 shotguns and I answered him and pointed out that assuming (which obviously could be incorrect, but I suspect is true) that long barrel was 1.25%, the same as range, then you are using a 'pick ten point' to reach the previous stock distance.
You then accused me of 'overexaggerating'...
While, in fact, if anything I was most likely understating the case: it is quite probable that both laser sight AND long barrel would be required to get the new Remington to similar stats to the Stakeout (albeit with it still having ~1.5m less range and 1 pellet fewer).
I didn't start an argument, and in anycase can't see how you could possibly conclude that they are "on par with previous installments."
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Post by quickbuck on Nov 11, 2012 16:33:23 GMT -5
No. Not having to ADS has been the shotgun class's biggest edge over the SMGee's in CQC and now that they have to ADS even w/ Steady aim while SMGee's are better from the hip than ever. ^This. You said what I was thinking. ^This.
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Post by firestorm on Nov 11, 2012 16:37:56 GMT -5
^This. You said what I was thinking. ^This. No, SMG sucks compare to early version due to either needing 4 shots to kill in knife range(anything other than PDW and MSMC) or much slower RoF(PDW & MSMC), and with RF now reduce range more than silencer making them near useless, SMG are weaker than ever.
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arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Nov 11, 2012 16:45:52 GMT -5
^^^can't you put rapid fire and long barrel together though? I guess it is a good balance attempt.
The only smgs that aren't really worth at all using in this game IMO though, is the mp7 and vector. Longer kill time shorter 4 hit kill range, AND much higher recoil(ok minus skorpion evo III) than the other 4. What the hell was treyarch thinking?
I suggest those two get buffed.. I suggest losing the 6 hit kill, and making it a 5 hit kill with longer ranges, AND giving them very little recoil like(like MW3 mp7 and MW2 vector).
The other 4 guns already have a faster kill time and 4 hit kill range(well okay(MSMC and PDW57).. Not to mention, MSMC and PDW57 don't burn through as many bullets..
So with my proposed changes the niches would be...
Skorpion EVO III and Chicom CQB - fastest kill times at cqc MSMC and PDW57 - best all around. Longest 4 hit kill range with 2nd best kill times within 3-4 hit kill range Vector and MP7 - most controllable/accurate recoil, and best a long range due to 5 hit kill instead of 6.
What do you guys think?
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Post by firestorm on Nov 11, 2012 16:48:43 GMT -5
In BO1, the good SMG are 3HK with high RoF.
MW 2 UMP45 was better than anything in MW3.
And RF had no range reduction.
SMG are much weaker now, no matter how you look at it.
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Post by firestorm on Nov 11, 2012 16:54:17 GMT -5
^^^can't you put rapid fire and long barrel together though? I guess it is a good balance attempt. The only smgs that aren't really worth at all using in this game IMO though, is the mp7 and vector. Longer kill time shorter 4 hit kill range, AND much higher recoil(ok minus skorpion evo III) than the other 4. What the hell was treyarch thinking? I suggest those two get buffed.. I suggest losing the 6 hit kill, and making it a 5 hit kill with longer ranges, AND giving them very little recoil like(like MW3 mp7 and MW2 vector). The other 4 guns already have a faster kill time and 4 hit kill range.. Not to mention, MSMC and PDW57 don't burn through as many bullets.. From what I read, LB doesn't add nearly as much range as RF takes away. Also there is the huge nerf to extended mag, which hurt SMG the most. We aren't even going to compare to MW3 MP7 or MW2 UMP, I just don't see anything that is even comparable to MW3 PP90 and I would take MW3 UMP45 over anything from BO2, at least I get a real EM and useful RF.
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Post by firestorm on Nov 11, 2012 17:00:31 GMT -5
Vector and MP7 - most controllable/accurate recoil, and best a long range due to 5 hit kill instead of 6. What do you guys think? Make them MP7 of MW3 but weaker in CQC? Could work. AR seems to be the way to go in BO2, just like BO1. From what I've watched FAL select fire is a true laser that kills in 2-3 shots. I just don't see "long range" SMG compete with it.
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Nov 11, 2012 17:02:06 GMT -5
SMG are much weaker now, no matter how you look at it. This is completely wrong. The 3sk SMGs in BO both fired at 750 rpm, which (according to the guide) is the same as the 3hk SMGs in BO2, while the PDW also has a 50 round magazine. The 4sk SMGs in BO fired at 937.5 rpm, which (again, according to the guide) is actually slower than some of the 4sk SMGs in BO2 (Chicom, Scorpion EVO). BO2 SMGs are actually almost strictly better.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Nov 11, 2012 17:04:19 GMT -5
plus larger mags. plus lower recoil (for most)
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Post by LeGitBeeSting on Nov 11, 2012 17:08:13 GMT -5
And they get long barrel attachment.
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Post by firestorm on Nov 11, 2012 17:08:21 GMT -5
SMG are much weaker now, no matter how you look at it. This is completely wrong. The 3sk SMGs in BO both fired at 750 rpm, which (according to the guide) is the same as the 3hk SMGs in BO2, while the PDW also has a 50 round magazine. The 4sk SMGs in BO fired at 937.5 rpm, which (again, according to the guide) is actually slower than some of the 4sk SMGs in BO2 (Chicom, Scorpion EVO). BO2 SMGs are actually almost strictly better. OK, are you really going to take anything over the 74u? Reminder that RF gave a huge boost didn't take away range Plus, BO1 was the game where AR could fire at 937 RPM and still kill in 3-4 shots with low recoil, SMG was already underpowered in that game. You can argue how SMG are OP in MW3 all you want, but the fact is you see a good balance of AR and SMG online, where in BO1, 90% people are using AR only.
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arcanine2009
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Post by arcanine2009 on Nov 11, 2012 17:11:49 GMT -5
MP7 and Vector need grip and long barrel to actually be decent, but they'd still be outclassed againts the MSMC and PDW57. /:
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Post by firestorm on Nov 11, 2012 17:11:51 GMT -5
In BO1, the good SMG are 3HK with high RoF. MW 2 UMP45 was better than anything in MW3. And RF had no range reduction. SMG are much weaker now, no matter how you look at it. In bo the spectre, mpl, and ak74 were undoubtedly all top tier guns. In mw2. Ump was most versitile, but the worst cqc smg in the game. It also was beaten at range by the vector and uzi. Being a 4hko has never stopped a 900 rpm weapon from being excellent. Rapid fire didn't reduce range but it did increase recoil, which is MUCH more important of a stat. Like RF in BO2 would not increase recoil, range nerf is on top of that. Also, UMP worse than Vector in CQC? Not even close, with SP in game, UMP murders Vector at all range.
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