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Post by billybongthornton on Nov 22, 2012 6:49:32 GMT -5
In order to avoid things like Claymores/Betties you pretty much have to run Engineer (which I do again in most cases) or Flak Jacket (which doesn't always work), but there's NO other option there as without being able to see them, then things like the PDA, launchers or whatever are useless. I'd argue this forces you to make a strict choice far more than a UAV does, especially when ANYONE can run these items (level permitting) whereas they need kills/caps etc to get a UAV... hell no. how hard is it to press the crouch button for a betty? and as for shock betty combos... my ears work pretty well i find. i could count on one hand the number of times iv been kill by them. claymores are a little harder to get around but they don't cover all directions and i can only remember being killed by them one time so far. it left an impression on me... ''oooo a claymore haven't seen one of those yet''. you can disagree if you want, but don't try and refute my argument by comparing apples with orange casserole dishes. try and come up with some other example that forces you into a playstyle/loadout as much as the uav. btw that's a genuine request to get some quality discussion going, not me being a dick. actually maybe don't try and think of some... if you point one out its bound to start pissing me off as well haha. i can see how you got this from what i said but i assure you i didn't mean it like that. i like variety and weird/different/cool classes that sometimes aren't strictly optimal, but i do well with them. even my knifing class i told you about (an extreme example) i'm probably breaking even with. sometimes ill have shocking games but ill have some absolute gems as well (boy are they fun... you can actually feel the rage of the other team haha). if im playing dom you bet your sweet bitty imma be throwing myself at that b-flag regardless of the class i'm running. but i really don't get too hung up on win or lose, kill or die... thats all i meant. i like to have fun with the game. i also like to pull on my smart player undies as well from time to time. any truly ridiculous shenanigans i do try and save for when i'm partied up with my mates. so no i'm not a dickhead ruining the game for my poor teammates. even if i was, totally not relevant to the issue of uav's. edit: lol smart player undies
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Post by Indy_Bones on Nov 22, 2012 7:43:59 GMT -5
how hard is it to press the crouch button for a betty? If you're already running then there's a good chance you'll dolphin dive straight into it... It doesn't matter if they cover all directions if they're covering the one you come in by... The key point to my argument is that without Engineer you can't see enemy equipment to be able to avoid/deal with it, or without FJ you can't absorb the impact of equipment you didn't know was there, therefore regardless of how many you've personally been killed by, they still have far less counters to their usage than a UAV does yet no-one is complaining that they are overpowered. I don't need another example as the one I've already given is perfectly valid and accurate. Equipment like claymores and betties are extremely dangerous if the person using them knows how to place them correctly (often with little to no chance to avoid them) and therefore I'm forced into choosing a perk that will deal with this or risking an easy death by blinding stumbling into one of them. I'd rather not take the death so I run engineer as my counter. I have no problem with this as it's a strong part of the metagame, just like dealing with UAV's is, and as UAV's have more counters than equipment then I genuinely don't see the issue here. If the way you choose to play the game has a negative influence on my enjoyment then I will 'have a crack' at it, and you clearly pointed out that you don't give a damn about KD/R or W/L ratios ergo you don't care about the end result as long as you had fun. I DO care about the end result and having players who couldn't give a crap can easily hurt this result and I don't agree with it. I don't demand that you change your style of play, but I do ask that you recognise it as being somewhat selfish at times and counter to team play. That's why FFA exists, so that people who don't care about team members can run around like maniacs with whatever setup they want. It only impacts them as against potentially 5-9 other players. It is relevant to the issues of UAV's because you've made it clear that you won't run counters to them meaning that either someone else in the team either has to deal with them or everyone takes the same approach and suffers because of it. My responses are not personal and shouldn't be taken as an attack, they're simply my observations on your approach to the game and how I feel it impacts other players even if it's not fully obvious at times. ALL players can run whatever class setups they want, but if they choose to run setups that don't counter something that annoys them, then they can't really complain about it as they've made the conscious choice NOT to counter it...that's all I'm saying
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Post by billybongthornton on Nov 22, 2012 10:25:33 GMT -5
If you're already running then there's a good chance you'll dolphin dive straight into it... you don't have to prone, just crouch. easily avoidable. true. sooo... claymores are better than bettys?? hehe sorry mate but i don't think so. i really don't think you can compare equipment and its counter with a scorestreak and its counter. scorestreaks are separate from the whole pick 10 system... they are independent of each other. edit: ill quote what i said in the ghost thread to try and illustrate this point. ill use a different example with things that have counters. comparing the effectiveness of c4 and thermal scope in MW3... both have counters. even perk counters in case you wanna be real picky. still stupid to compare them because they don't compete with one another. its irrelevant if one is better, or even OP, compared to the other, because you don't have to have one or the other. you can have both or neither. they are separate from one another. in different categories. now what about comparing c4 and AH-6? both still have perk counters... still separate things, still irrelevant, still stupid. now comparing c4 and dual band in BO2... both still have perk counters. but now it is not stupid to compare them. they will both set you back a point so their relative effectiveness is worth considering. how about c4 and escort drone? both still have perk counters. but they are independent of each other. different. any difference in their effectiveness is entirely irrelevant... stupidity. you can't say a scorestreak isn't OP because there is an equipment with less counters. even said equipment was 10 times more effective then the scorestreak (which it isn't) it still doesn't work. stupidity. if you wanna show that uav isn't a problem compare it to its peers. the things you would choose instead of it... but do it in the uav rant thread so we don't derail this bad boy by all means compare bettys and engineer/flak with other equipment like c4 and engi/flak, or sensor nades and coldblooded, or shock charges and engi/tac mask. or the merits of using engi/flak to counter bettys versus the merits of having fasthands/scavenger to use bettys. hell even compare the merits of taking bettys over a taking a secondary weapon or attachments since they all compete for an allocation point(s). but comparing bettys and engi/flak to uav and ghost/launchers/pda just doesn't make sense. like comparing apples with things that aren't even fruit if you wanna convince me uav isn't a problem compare it to other scorestreaks. basically i don't want to have the way i play dictated by the lowest killstreak in the game. compare it to some other killstreaks... toy car or hunter killer gets called in and im not running flak: maybe a 1 in 6 or 7 chance it'll kill me (numerous players to go for and i have a chance of shooting it/hiding from it). pretty good odds, as it should be for low streaks. now a hellstorm gets called in and i'm not running cold-blooded: maybe a 1 in 4 chance ill get killed (again multiple players to go for and i can hide, but it can multikill pretty easily). reasonable odds for a moderate streak. now a stealth chopper gets called in and i'm not running blind-eye: i will get mutilated if i go outside, probably multiple times. ill cop that, higher streaks are pretty rare, and hell the dude earned my blood. now the 20th uav of the game gets called in and i'm not running ghost or launcher: i, and the majority of my team, WILL have a really bad time for 30 seconds (a long time in cod-land). in my book that is just way too absolute for the lowest. streak. in. the. game. what i tried to illustrate here is that uav's are gosh darn golly gee whiz powerful. like lightning strike powerful. hopefully i havn't gone too far here but i seriously think that both streaks net me roughly the same amount of easy kills every time i call them in, maybe uav even more (i mostly play tdm before everyone calls me a killwhore). the only thing that differentiates them enough to make sense of uav being the lowest killstreak is that uav has so many counters compared to the other killstreaks. you can shoot them down with guns or launchers, hack them, run ghost, or put up a cuav... whereas with lightning strike you pretty much only have ghost (no time to hide). BUT remember that cuav is a substantially higher killstreak than uav, bullets are next to useless, and ghost rushing is a common counter to both uav and LS. what are you left with? launchers and black hats competing with the fact that uav is like 1000 times easier to get. given that launchers and black hats have their own, albeit minor, downsides (no pistols or stun nades, you have to stop and shoot/hack them etc etc) are they enough to balance the ease of getting a uav compared with the lightning strike? imo, not even close. hence uav is too good for its place on the scorestreak list. hence uav spam (not helped by being unlocked from the start and getting ghost late). hence counters are mandatory if you don't wanna get utterly rolled. this is annoying to me because i don't think so much of the game should revolve around the lowest streak. but obviously are not bothered by this and that is fine brobeans i would do a similar comparison with other scorestreaks to completely prove my point but i can't be arsed haha. i think the levels of spam compared to other low streaks at the moment speaks for itself anyway. so that's why i think uav's are kinda broken in BO2 (at least for the time being). feel free to disagree about the magnitude or relative annoying-ness of the problem because im probably blowing it way out of proportion. but don't tell me the problem isn't there unless you can show me how the uav is balanced against the other streaks (you know, the things you would choose instead of uav...). if you can do that well done sir, and i will be very embarrassed haha. i wanna look at the flip side of the coin just for lulz... MW2: the only cod i have played a decent amount where uav spam hasn't been a problem. i would say on average i get probably 1 or 2 easy kills from both preds and uavs in that game, since cold-blooded reasonably popular and uav's often get shot down with SP bullets and launchers. so what balances the fact that preds required 2 more kills? well for one a pred was almost always at least one kill, possible more, very rarely none, whereas uav could be shot down before you got any benefit from it. both countered by CB so take that out of the equation. the only other thing i can think of was that the stacking kill streaks in MW2 made it popular to forgo uav for a later streak... pred-harrier-chopper potentially higher reward than uav-pred-harrier. i would say those advantages are pretty balanced with requiring 2 more kills. result? no annoying uav spam. you could live without countering it. hell SP made it easy to shoot the things down anyway. not really trying to make a point here just musing on what balanced uav's looked like. yes i care more about enjoying myself than my k/d or w/l. does than mean i purposefully do bad? of course not ya drongo. doing well is what make it fun. all i said was i like to do well will a variety of loadouts/playstyles. some of these you might call being selfish cause i might not do as well as if i had the absolute statistically best loadout and therefore may be the difference between a close win or close loss. i call that an overreaction, but if you really care that much, well then yeah you're right i'm selfish no i do counter uav's, i run ghost. i have to haha, at least on most classes. i guess your right in a way that my stubborn refusal to give up pistols or stun nades for a launcher or black hat is not helping those on my team without ghost. i guess i just don't care enough about random green-guys. but whats stopping them from putting a smaw on? as i said above, my complaint is not that i am getting rolled cause i cbf countering them. my complaint is that you have to counter them... which is a direct effect of the spam... which is a direct result of the fact that they are too good for their low scorestreak value (i suppose you could argue against this but i think my logic train above comparing them to other streaks is pretty spot on). the fact that you choose to you black hat/launcher and i use ghost is irrelevant. but onya mate for giving a Foxtrot about the green dudes i really don't think i can articulate my argument any better so imma let this one be. but srs if someone can show me how uav is balanced against other scorestreaks i will happily eat my words. /thesis
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Post by mastermarth on Nov 22, 2012 13:40:11 GMT -5
UAV's easy acquisition is a double edged blade.
Yes, because it's easy to get it tends to be spammed, but your side can spam it too. If they have one up, most likely you do as well.
Or run the FHJ / PDA and do your entire team a favor against all airborne Score Streaks.
EDIT: You know what? If your character looks up, the UAV should be highlighted on the mini-map...
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Post by Indy_Bones on Nov 23, 2012 3:48:36 GMT -5
ok then indybones ill use a different example with things that have counters. comparing the effectiveness of c4 and thermal scope in MW3... both have counters. even perk counters in case you wanna be real picky. still stupid to compare them because they don't compete with one another. its irrelevant if one is better, or even OP, compared to the other, because you don't have to have one or the other. you can have both or neither. they are separate from one another. in different categories. now what about comparing c4 and AH-6? both still have perk counters... still separate things, still irrelevant, still stupid. Sorry but you're just being a bit dense here. It DOESN'T matter if you can run both, or if you can select perk counters to both either, the fact is that if you want to avoid dealing with something in COD you need to run a counter to it and these counters come attached with a cost. If I want to avoid Thermal scopes then I need CB, if I want to survive explosions better I need FJ and if I want to stay off UAV's then I use Ghost. These ALL cost a point in the new 'pick 10' system. As does a launcher, a PDA or even a Primary weapon. What you're getting hung up on is that with the UAV being a scorestreak reward you don't have to put one of your 'pick 10' points into it. I don't disagree with this, but if you want to COUNTER it then you need to use one of these points. If you want to COUNTER a Hunter Killer you need to pick Blind Eye which again costs you from your pick 10, just like Ghost does, just like a launcher does. Are you starting to grasp the overall concept here??? The fact that scorestreak rewards are outside of the class building system doesn't make one them overpowered compared to what's included in that system, what makes something overpowered is based on how easy it is to counter, how effective it is and how easy it is to obtain it. The UAV is relatively easy to get for most players, but it's very easy to counter and therefore it's effectivity varies from virtually useless to extremely powerful depending on whether or not the opposition are running one of the necessary counters, and that's why it's NOT overpowered. I CAN say that because it's based on how you choose to allocate your points to counter things in game. If the cost to counter is exactly the same, then basic logic shows us that whether or not they are OP depends on their effects and cost. I'd argue that equipment costs you a point from your 'pick 10' but doesn't come with the restrictions of having to earn it via kills etc like a UAV does, so it again comes down to which you think 'costs' more. Whether or not my opponents choose to use one of their 'pick 10' to select something like a Claymore, or whether they don't and run a 'cost free' UAV, I still have to pay one of my own points from the 'pick 10' system in order to counter either of them, therefore the cost of countering either to me IS EXACTLY THE SAME. As for comparing a UAV to it's peers, how the hell do you quantify the effect of something that can't be properly measured??? If I use a HK I would expect a return of at least 1 kill, occasionally 2, if I use a Lightning Strike I would expect the same or better. A Stealth Chopper will normally get you 4-5 kills (depending on how good the opposition is at dealing with it), but they're ALL situation and counter dependant. If the entire enemy team is running Ghost then the UAV is pretty much worthless, just as they are when a CUAV is active, if it gets taken down within seconds of being called then it's been virtually worthless as well. If no-one counters it in any way and it's there for the full time then it can still be pretty useless if your team doesn't capitalise on the information it provides, or a good team will get a massive benefit from it and it'll be well worth the selection. There is no properly quantifiable way to gauge how useful a UAV is compared to it's peers, but if I can deal with it quickly, easily and in a number of different ways then I don't worry about it compared to many of the other alternatives a good player could obtain that are far less easy to avoid.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Nov 23, 2012 9:31:47 GMT -5
In every game after MW2 dat PoS called UAV IS A PROBLEM.
Why?
Because Stopping Power disappeared. Because Stopping Power in the eyes of dev. spoiled the weapon balance... and that weapon balance became much worse in MW3 and BO2. ROTFL.
Bring Stopping Power back. If I am on radar non-stop then my every bloody bullet must have more damage to compensate for that. If UAV-killwhore rushes me I am a stronger opponent: information vs firepower.
In MW2 I had only 1-2 classes out of 10 with Cold Blooded, in MW3: 9-10 Assassin classes and in BO2 - every class, as soon as I get to level 55.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Nov 23, 2012 9:36:24 GMT -5
But what if the opponent also uses Stopping Power? He is still at an advantage
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Nov 23, 2012 9:39:08 GMT -5
Yes, but I can run UAV as well or higher - lethal - killstreaks. Fair trade off.
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tooros
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Post by tooros on Nov 23, 2012 9:39:43 GMT -5
I think SP was daft to be honest. You were forced to use it because just about everyone else did and your gun was under-powered, 1v1, otherwise. It stifled the game.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Nov 23, 2012 9:48:44 GMT -5
Then you are all at the same level again. Everybody having stopping power is the same as nobody having stopping power (ok not exactly but you get my point).
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Nov 23, 2012 9:50:54 GMT -5
I think SP was daft to be honest. You were forced to use it because just about everyone else did and your gun was under-powered, 1v1, otherwise. It stifled the game. It is more complicated than that. There were weapons not affected by SP, less affected or highly, it was balanced: many good weapons available... And SP had some strong competitors in tier 2. I only state the fact: in MW2 killstreaks incl. UAVs were fine, noone complained. Then you are all at the same level again. Everybody having stopping power is the same as nobody having stopping power (ok not exactly but you get my point). "Everybody having stopping power and UAV [balanced game] is NOT the same as nobody having stopping power but some have tons of UAVs [not balanced game]"
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Nov 23, 2012 10:04:57 GMT -5
SP having strong competitors? Ok lel.
The only strong competitor SP ever had was Juggernaut. If you remove one, the other becomes a necessity. If you put stopping power in the game, it becomes mandatory to use it.
On your second example (the not balanced one) everyone can have UAVs, not just some. As much as it was in MW2, the first team who gets a UAV have the advantage, IF the other team doesn't know what it is doing.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Nov 23, 2012 10:17:18 GMT -5
Marathon - Cold Blooded - Commando ?
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Nov 23, 2012 10:25:55 GMT -5
That class is only good if there is an UAV on the air. Plus good old baby monitor.
There is also MLC, OMA noob tubing, but they're still not as great as Stopping Power could be... with very few exceptions (long range UMP, close range Model 1887)
Ghost is stronger than ever before in this game (at least now since it was just released), because everybody is in a red-dot-chase fever.
The stronger the UAV is, the stronger Ghost becomes too.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Nov 23, 2012 10:38:09 GMT -5
That class is only good if there is an UAV on the air. Plus good old baby monitor. That class is very only good as there might be UAV (from care package?) on the air and you are inside enemy base. Do you think HBS works vs knifers? I 'd prepare AA12 (+ Ext Magz ; ) or Akimbo G18. WA2000 + Cold Blooded ... etc etc ... UMP45 + whatever you want ... etc etc ... Did SPAS12 profit from SP ? I think not really ... and it could be used as primary. M21 EBR .... RPD was so strong it raped even without SP ..... DC + GL ... DC Pro + chopper gunner
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Post by billybongthornton on Nov 23, 2012 10:39:22 GMT -5
ok then indybones ill use a different example with things that have counters. comparing the effectiveness of c4 and thermal scope in MW3... both have counters. even perk counters in case you wanna be real picky. still stupid to compare them because they don't compete with one another. its irrelevant if one is better, or even OP, compared to the other, because you don't have to have one or the other. you can have both or neither. they are separate from one another. in different categories. now what about comparing c4 and AH-6? both still have perk counters... still separate things, still irrelevant, still stupid. Sorry but you're just being a bit dense here. no i'm not. do you agree that comparing c4 and AH-6 in MW3 would prove nothing about either of their potential OP-ness?? i really hope you do, otherwise i'm arguing with an idiot. sure you can say one might be more effective than the other, but that doesn't make it OP. what makes something OP is being more effective overall than the stuff you can choose instead of it. i really don't there is an argument to be made against this, it's pretty much the definition of OP in my book. this is absolutely no different in BO2. the only thing that has changed is that pick 10 now means you can choose between guns perks and equipment. so sure,go ahead and argue that any of those things are OP/UP depending on their effectiveness, methods of use, available counters, general abundance in the game, or whatever other factors you can think of. in previous COD calling a stun nade UP or OP compared to an RPG would be stupid... now it is not because they both cost a point. BUT YOU STILL CAN'T SAY A SCORESTREAK IS NOT OP BECAUSE YOU COMPARED IT TO SOMETHING THAT ISN'T A SCORESTREAK. that's all i was trying to illustrate with my doo-doohouse analogy. dude... 100% agreement from me. if anything there are even more subtle factors at play than this. which is why i made the comparison between lightning strike and uav. did you even read what i wrote? i took into account both of their counters, their effectiveness (e.g. their ability to get kills, how constantly they do so etc), and how easy they are to get. and based on my experiences and the experiences of others that i have read, i deduced that, all things considered, uav is better than lightning strike. true this was done entirely qualitatively and definitely isn't a complete analysis. but that's the best I could do and it still paints a pretty clear picture imo. just cause we don't have cold hard stats doesn't mean we can't draw conclusions. use that muscle between your ears. if you think of something i missed in my comparison then tell me bro, please. depending on how influential that factor is it might just change my mind and say lightning strike is OP and must me nerfed at all cost better yet, do a comparison of uav and another killstreak that shows me uav isn't too good (as the game is playing now, will probably change in the future). take into account their effectiveness, their counters, their ease to obtain, their easy of use and any other factors you can think of. you seem like a pretty smart dude so you can probably come up with a more comprehensive comparison than i can. everything else in your last reply is basically saying we CAN compare scorestreaks with everything else in the game even though they are independent of each other, because their counters both exist in the same system (pick 10) and therefore compete with each other, yes?? please correct me if i read this wrong, but that's what i got from it. i would disagree with this for a couple of reasons. firstly, there have been instances of this in previous COD's anyway. i'll invent another example, bare with me here. consider EMP and c4 again in MW3. both of their counters are perks in the same tier (ass pro and blast-shield). imo this doesn't magically make it ok say one is OP compared to the other. they are still separate options for your load out. the fact that both of their counters compete with each other is coincidental and irrelevant. note that in BO2 (as you correctly pointed out) the counters ALL compete each other now. this removes the coincidental aspect, but not irrelevance. i still maintain you can only say something is OP compared to the other options you have for that thing. but this is (of course) not to say counters don't come into this discussion at all. which brings me to my second point. counters are merely one part of the complex relationships in the game that determine whether something is truely OP or UP. you said this yourself in the section i quoted above... other aspects being effectiveness, prevalence blah blah blah the list goes on. counters are not the be all and end all. so, for the final time, show me a comparison of uav's and another scorestreak (including counters, which you seem to love so much) that shows they are not OP and i will bow down to you and kiss your boots, mostly because i will be enlightened and no longer ticked off by uavs and therefore forever in your debt
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Post by billybongthornton on Nov 23, 2012 10:52:50 GMT -5
to the other bros posting in this thread now... i would agree one of the major reasons uav was balanced in MW2 was stopping power. but SP had its own issues imo edit: also i'd like it if some other peeps would weight in on my and indy's discussion. am i a dropkick retard for thinking something can only be OP against the other options you have for that given item??? cause if i have my head up my arse on that one then there goes my whole argument
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tooros
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Post by tooros on Nov 23, 2012 10:56:23 GMT -5
you're crazy if you dont think SP had any competitors in mw2. It had competitors - Cold Blooded - but you had to flank, get behind them and take them out that way. Face-to-face (which some maps always ended up being pretty much (from distant memory now)) demanded SP or you just lost. Yes there were guns it didn't affect - I used the suppressed UMP myself with my flanking class - but, in general, over the average - you nearly always needed SP if it existed. Or at least I felt like I did.
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Post by billybongthornton on Nov 23, 2012 11:05:14 GMT -5
SP did have its competitors... CB obviously. LW was better occasionally, its faster aim after sprint giving an advantage almost equal to SP in a few situations on top of the obvious speed bonus. HL was better than SP if you were running uav, care pack, pred; 2-3-4 with HL easier to get than 3-4-5 with SP (debatable). DC was just ridiculous. the problem was SP was better in the vast majority of situations, even tho the others had their uses.
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Post by mastermarth on Nov 23, 2012 11:07:38 GMT -5
I find that most of the UAV complaints can generally be put into 2 categories of people (for those that do actually complain):
1) I hate that my team doesn't shoot them down for me.
2) I hate that I have to spend CaC slots/points to counter them.
For #1, if you aren't shooting them down yourself, you are causing the same problems for your team. If you just run Ghost/Assassin, you are still not shooting them down. The problem then becomes focused on your inability to get a counter for it (EG: Ghost), inability to destroy it with a counter (EG: PDA, SMAW, FHJ-18) or inability of your team to do the previous point.
For #2, if your problem is that you have to spend points to counter it, then how big of a problem it is will be related to what things you sacrifice in order to spend the points to counter it, which directly influences your own strength and abilities. Therefor, it's easier to counter UAVs considering it costs the same as other things (1 point) but the counter is in different places (Tier 1 Perk, Launcher, Tactical), meaning you don't have to sacrifice a Secondary or second Primary just to get the FHJ-18, or you don't have to sacrifice one of your two Tier 1 perks for Ghost. You have some flexibility.
Plus, if things are really bad, have Scavenger + PDA and you can counter Score Streaks ALL DAY LONG.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Nov 23, 2012 11:07:56 GMT -5
One bro here said months ago that SP mas mandatory ONLY on Barrett and Intervention, to make them 1HK weapons. Every other gun could be played effectively w/out SP. In some game modes like DEM, on bigger maps, where spawn was far away from bomb-sites, Lightweight was more important - better have any chance to defuse or kill than have SP but lose. Plus, if things are really bad, have Scavenger + PDA and you can counter Score Streaks ALL DAY LONG. You re dead while hacking or soon after that : )
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Post by billybongthornton on Nov 23, 2012 11:27:06 GMT -5
I find that most of the UAV complaints can generally be put into 2 categories of people (for those that do actually complain): 1) I hate that my team doesn't shoot them down for me. 2) I hate that I have to spend CaC slots/points to counter them. my problem with uav's is 100% number 2. i don't like that i HAVE to waste at least one point (more if i need a wildcard to do it) on most classes because of the lowest scorestreak in the game. in MW2 it wasn't like this. if you weren't running CB you will feel the effects of an enemy uav, but you weren't completely gimping yourself by not having it. you didn't NEED it. in BO2 you are totally gimping yourself by not running a counter (in the current metagame). this is only because of the levels of spam, its not like uav's have suddenly gotten stronger or anything like that. imo the spam is because uav is better than the other scorestreaks relative to its score value (read: OP, and this is basically what i have been debating with indy) so every muppet in the game is using it. mandatory counters or ensured suffering = too much power for the lowest streak in my book.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Nov 23, 2012 11:28:09 GMT -5
you're crazy if you dont think SP had any competitors in mw2. " SP having strong competitors? Ok lel.
The only strong competitor SP ever had was Juggernaut." One bro here said months ago that SP mas mandatory ONLY on Barrett and Intervention, to make them 1HK weapons. Every other gun could be played effectively w/out SP. On a bunch of weapons, SP cut ttk by half. On the others it was still a huge advantage. Sure, I can use a 4-5hk ACR, but man I'd like to play a lot more with a 3-4 one. In some game modes like DEM, on bigger maps, where spawn was far away from bomb-sites, Lightweight was more important - better have any chance to defuse or kill than have SP but lose. I could choose Marathon for the same effect and not be hindered in my encounters. Plus, if things are really bad, have Scavenger + PDA and you can counter Score Streaks ALL DAY LONG. You re dead while hacking or soon after that : ) Your team must suck a lot to die so easily when shooting down UAVs. Get together with your squad and bring those things down while they give you cover. Even though you only need one soldier carrying a stinger, it isn't an one-man job. ...I really don't know what happened from back then to now, but UAV on MW2 was much weaker. At least for me, I didn't feel like "OMG I have to hide there is a UAV on the air"... mostly because there was always one on our end too. It felt a lot worse when there was a Harrier above.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Nov 23, 2012 11:39:20 GMT -5
I would absolutely say that DC and CB are strong competitors. Maybe not for joe killwhore bot for any decent player, yes. Hardline is also a light competitor I would say that DC is only good if you make a synergy with other tier 1 perks (one of them being seriously a exploit) and Cold-Blooded was situational. It's like that MW3 argument: Kick vs Focus, but with kick actually making your gun OP. SP was good with anything (Ok the Riot Shield being an exception)
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on Nov 23, 2012 11:39:52 GMT -5
BO2:
UAV pointstreak should be removed. Just that. Instead MW3:Recon perk idea introduced.
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Post by Indy_Bones on Nov 23, 2012 12:22:11 GMT -5
my problem with uav's is 100% number 2. i don't like that i HAVE to waste at least one point (more if i need a wildcard to do it) on most classes because of the lowest scorestreak in the game. Oh FFS. If you want to counter ANYTHING in this game you need to 'waste' points on them, from the most to least expensive killstreaks to the equipment to the perks. Equipment doesn't come with the requirements that a UAV does in regards to obtaining it (you simply pick it in CaC and use it in-game), but apparently this is not a problem. Why should I have to 'waste' one of my points on Engineer or Flak Jacket in order to counter something that ANYONE can use without even needing a single kill??? This is one of the main points we don't agree on, I see counters as a natural requirement to deal with something in-game and that they come with an appropriate cost, whereas you simply appear to resent this. Agreed, so why not run one then? Nope. There's LESS UAV's present in BO2 than in ANY previous COD title, and this is due to the requirements to get one being higher than in any previous COD, and the fact that there are MORE counters to it than ever before. Only comparing the performance of one scorestreak against the other is missing a huge component of the equation - what can the player do to stop them. Something is only overpowered when it's almost impossible to deal with, causes massive problems, is clearly better than all similar alternatives and is too easy to obtain. The UAV CAN'T fit into this because whilst it's fairly easy to obtain, it's very easy to deal with, doesn't actively damage ANYONE and it can't be better than similar alternatives because there's nothing else at that scorepoint to compare it with! This is another reason why I directly compare it to equipment, they both come with a fairly low cost (3-4 kills for a UAV, or 1 CaC point for equipment), they can both be countered fairly easily and can both be very dangerous if not dealt with. The opposition having a UAV DOESN'T guarantee that they'll be able to kill me at all, even if it's left alone and I'm not running a counter, whereas a well placed Claymore or similar more than likely WILL kill me if I'm not running a counter. To avoid EITHER problem I need to 'waste' a point on choosing a counter, and there are less options to deal with equipment then there are a UAV, and THIS is why a UAV isn't overpowered, and neither is equipment. If UAV's didn't exist but everyone was getting killed by Claymore's or Betties, we'd have nothing but whining about THEM being OP and moans about having to run Engineer or FJ to deal with them. OP is normally used to describe whatever the community as a whole doesn't like dealing with at that point. First it was Stopping Power and Juggernaut, then it was DC/OMA tube spam and Commando lunges, then it was the FAMAS and Ghost, then it was the Support Class and Assassin, and now we're onto the UAV and Laser Sight SMG's...where does it end ffs??? The point where a UAV GUARANTEES a certain amount of kills and has virtually no counters but still costs the same - THEN I'll agree it's OP, but until that point it's simply something else you actively choose to deal with or not...
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Post by mastermarth on Nov 23, 2012 12:27:55 GMT -5
wwaa: I'm only dead if I can't find the thing, which is why I believe that PDA should highlight Score Streaks in the air. Doesn't the FHJ-18 do this with UAVs at least? @billybong: Or, this is the start of the game where people are learning the maps, don't have or don't bother using the counters and while people are getting used to the game and dying a lot, the lower Score Streaks are the safest and best ones to use. Of which the UAV not only is the lowest one, but also provides valuable information while playing about where spawns are, what general routes people following, which tactical loitering spots people take, etc. Not only is it valuable information normally, but even more so because the game just got released. Look back at MW3 and how much UAV spam there was when that released... that was bad too since 3 UAVs gave a mini Blackbird effect. If you think that something that requires a counter is too strong, than wouldn't anything that can kill you be OP, since you either die or use a counter for it? @mma: I started CoD with Black Ops, and honestly the UAV doesn't seem any stronger. The only reason it would is because their counters (Ghost, Assassin and Ghost in BO, MW3 and BO2, respectively) are unlocked at different levels and cover different things. Ghost in BO countered everything and wasn't unlocked too late, so EVERYONE that wanted ANY kind of stealth ran it, which made Spy Planes useless for the most part (this changed later in the game though). Assassin in MW3 didn't counter everything (hello Blind Eye), but it covered the more important things and was in a different tier than Blind Eye, so a lot of people ran it for stealth as well. Add to that the early-ish unlock and the fact that Assassin Pro countered the CUAV and EMP and it was used a lot. Ghost in BO2 counters the UAV and ONLY the UAV. It's also unlocked at the end of the prestige. That, and it's in the same tier as Lightweight and Flak Jacket as well as Blind Eye. As mentioned before as well, there were limited counters to the UAV in BO and MW3: you either shot it down with a secondary or used a perk for immunity. Using a perk meant having no other Tier 1 (BO) or Tier 2 (MW3) perks unless running Specialist and using a Launcher meant sacrificing a secondary and having to switch to it and find the UAV. Now, the FHJ-18 highlights them on the map making them easier to spot and shoot down, you have the Black Hat PDA that can take them down if you prefer using a Tactical slot and even if you take Ghost you can still have another Tier 1 perk used as well. It's a lot easier to handle the UAVs in BO2 than in BO or MW3, but people aren't actively doing so at the moment since, like the other games, people only care about themselves. Once a few more people unlock Ghost, the amount of people shown on UAV will drop. wwaa 2nd: They have Sensor Grenades + Scavenger. But really though, I do miss Recon's bullet effects... but only when LMGs had no damage drop-off and didn't have any negatives with suppressor. It was fun to spray through a wall just to see if an arrow would light up.
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Zero IX
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Post by Zero IX on Nov 23, 2012 13:08:14 GMT -5
Yep, I've already played against one team in which UAV consistently picked up just two dots.
You know what the most fun I had with MW3 was? The first couple of weeks when almost everyone was red-lit before Assassin became widespread among good players. UAVs benefit good players, who can use them to deduce spawns with 100% certainty and effectively hunt red dots, much more than they do weak players. A good player not only knows to keep his guard up as well as the general direction of the enemies during UAV, but can use appearing on the radar to his advantage.
Seriously, if the only way one knows how to play CoD is to flank, just slap on Ghost.
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Post by ElysMustache on Nov 23, 2012 13:56:26 GMT -5
Your team must suck a lot to die so easily when shooting down UAVs. Get together with your squad and bring those things down while they give you cover. Even though you only need one soldier carrying a stinger, it isn't an one-man job. This. And when playing with randoms who don't communicate: prior to looking for UAV, check your team's location on mini-map (or better yet, press start and use full map), then retreat into "friendly territory", and whip out the Stinger.
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Post by mastermarth on Nov 23, 2012 14:43:17 GMT -5
Your team must suck a lot to die so easily when shooting down UAVs. Get together with your squad and bring those things down while they give you cover. Even though you only need one soldier carrying a stinger, it isn't an one-man job. This. And when playing with randoms who don't communicate: prior to looking for UAV, check your team's location on mini-map (or better yet, press start and use full map), then retreat into "friendly territory", and whip out the Stinger. Also this. In any game that has something that's common, yet really easy to avoid, you'll always have those not willing to put the effort into avoiding it and will instead spend 100x the effort complaining about it (EG: Teemo's Mushrooms in LoL).
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