wings
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Post by wings on May 21, 2014 16:51:43 GMT -5
Huh? I barely get this stuff you speak of. Must be an American thing.
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Post by Marvel4 on May 21, 2014 17:22:24 GMT -5
and in most the games a secondary is actually super effective at all ranges on PC (in CoD 4 one deagle headshot would drop a person at all but extreme distances)
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Pentaza
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Post by Pentaza on May 21, 2014 17:31:56 GMT -5
I've never found snipers to be OP, or quick-scoping to be OP. Why do I say this? Because when I use snipers I'm always way worse than with most other weapon types. And there is nothing in this world that makes me want to waste my time quick-scoping to scores like 3-15.
The only time I've felt able to user snipers successfully was on Stonehaven in Ghosts.
I think the problems with snipers are: 1. Seemingly random insta-deaths, especially against quick-scopers, but also when you venture in certain areas of maps (and this is usually because of bad map design). 2. The 6-year-olds who spend their time trying to 720-spin-upside-down-no-hands-one-shot-game-winning-kill-cam-headshot-quick-scope.
Personally, I'd do three things: 1. Nerf snipers in a way that quick-scoping is pointless, but hard-scoping (proper sniping) still works. There are plenty of suggestions in this thread for how to do that. 2. Make sure that maps are designed properly such that it's always possible to cross the key points of the map while avoiding sniper lines of sight, without having to run all the way round the edge of the map. A map like Raid (BOII) is good; Whiteout (Ghosts) is just terrible in this respect. 3. Have a specific playlist where quick-scoping is buffed, so that all the quick-scoping kiddies can go play there.
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on May 21, 2014 17:40:39 GMT -5
I've already weighed in on what I think about quick-scoping...but I'll talk about one of my favorite unexpected experiences in Ghosts. It was getting the ghillie suit. I normally don't snipe outside of SnD and on very specific maps and for very specific circumstances... but I really wanted to complete my yeti-riotshield class at all costs. So I set out to get that suit. What resulted was a very fun time in cranked, running around hardscoping and quick-scoping when needed. Cranked was normally a mindless gamemode for me, which explains why it was never among my favorite, but sniping in Cranked put me into a "zone" that is hard to explain. I did surprisingly well at it too.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on May 21, 2014 18:02:38 GMT -5
I've never found snipers to be OP, or quick-scoping to be OP. Why do I say this? Because when I use snipers I'm always way worse than with most other weapon types. And there is nothing in this world that makes me want to waste my time quick-scoping to scores like 3-15. The only time I've felt able to user snipers successfully was on Stonehaven in Ghosts. I think the problems with snipers are: 1. Seemingly random insta-deaths, especially against quick-scopers, but also when you venture in certain areas of maps (and this is usually because of bad map design). 2. The 6-year-olds who spend their time trying to 720-spin-upside-down-no-hands-one-shot-game-winning-kill-cam-headshot-quick-scope. Personally, I'd do three things: 1. Nerf snipers in a way that quick-scoping is pointless, but hard-scoping (proper sniping) still works. There are plenty of suggestions in this thread for how to do that. 2. Make sure that maps are designed properly such that it's always possible to cross the key points of the map while avoiding sniper lines of sight, without having to run all the way round the edge of the map. A map like Raid (BOII) is good; Whiteout (Ghosts) is just terrible in this respect. 3. Have a specific playlist where quick-scoping is buffed, so that all the quick-scoping kiddies can go play there. "Proper sniping still works" "Make maps like Raid" Okay
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on May 21, 2014 20:45:26 GMT -5
I've seen solo TDM recently on Ghosts, where most of the 11 other players are sniping. Most of them suck, but they were sniping. It's not uncommon. And see a map like Whiteout, Stormfront, Stonehaven, it's almost a given most players will be sniping. Okay... Are we talking railgunners or snipers?
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Post by hard1ine on May 22, 2014 1:16:38 GMT -5
Excellent post, Aphoristic.
As for what I see needs to be done to end the quickscoping epidemic, two things come to mind:
- The autoaim on sniper rifles should not work unless the user's target is at least 15 meters away. Close range sniper kills should come down to aiming skill, not the game handholding railgunners with obscene amounts of autoaim (as seen in MW2, MW3, and BO2). Basically, disable autoaim at close ranges.
- A sniper rifle should never be able to get a one shot kill to any part of the limbs or lower half of the body. Maybe have one sniper that can one shot the lower half, but give it movement and ADS penalties. Regular weapons get no reward for poor accuracy; neither should sniper rifles.
I should always be at an advantage against a sniper at close range with an AR/SMG/Shotgun. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept for most of this forum to grasp.
As for the other good reason to fix sniping, look no further than the community, of which snipers are objectively the worst portion. I need not remind everyone of the threats made to David Vonderhaar following the (extremely minor) sniper rifle nerfs he did to fix Black Ops 2. Every game has Search and Destroy lobbies flooded with vulgar internet tough guys and ignorant children looking for montage clips and "reg gunners" to yell at.
A Youtuber went into a "sniper rifle only" lobby in CoD4 and was told to leave. When he got a kill with a regular weapon, an angry railgunner messaged him, calling the Youtuber "fat" and hoped that his "grandfather had died in the twin towers*." These awful people and their annoying, disruptive playstyle should not be tolerated, and hopefully nerfing sniper rifles will force arrogant railgunners out of newer titles to create a more mature and accepting environment for normal people to enjoy.
* In case you were wondering if this claim is true, as well as see a video that sums up why I dislike snipers, see below.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on May 22, 2014 2:36:57 GMT -5
More than 50% of your post is completely pointless and irrelevant to any specific functional part of the game being discussed here.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on May 22, 2014 8:04:20 GMT -5
1. Nerf snipers in a way that quick-scoping is pointless, but hard-scoping (proper sniping) still works. There are plenty of suggestions in this thread for how to do that. 2. Make sure that maps are designed properly such that it's always possible to cross the key points of the map while avoiding sniper lines of sight, without having to run all the way round the edge of the map. A map like Raid (BOII) is good; Whiteout (Ghosts) is just terrible in this respect. These two are directly in conflict with each other. If the maps are designed so that all the key routes completely avoid any good sniper lines of sight then no matter how good the sniper weapons are they will fail to be viable at anything BUT quickscoping.
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Post by iw5000 on May 22, 2014 9:06:14 GMT -5
I think people are barking up the wrong tree, when it comes to dealing with snipers. Barking up all the wrong trees. For example, most people think the 'problem' is one of the guns being OP when quickscoping. They aren't. As a few people have said, for every legitimately skilled QS'er you come across as an opponent, you will play against 250 horrible players who just stink up the lobby. And therein lies the real problem, these god awful players not just playing as opponents, but also playing on your side too. These people just grind the CoD game down into a halt, where gameplay stinks.
And the solution? It's not to be found in tweaking the maps, or doing some technical coding correction on ADS'ing or damage points. The solution is to be found with the simple motivation. People snipe for a number of reasons, and most involve things that DON'T involve actually playing the objective or trying to help get kills. Most people snipe because they think it's cool. They want to be like 'Optic' (setting aside that logic is dated). They think sniping kills are more legit. They think it will make for better youtube montages. They are working for a camo. They are working for a ghillie suit. All these things, and not a one of them involving being actually useful as a teammate. I would venture a guess 90% of people sniping, are doing so for those reasons. And it's with those reasons, ...the 'fix' must be addressing.
Let me give an example of a simple fix. Rather than making one of the supposed coolest camos (the ghillie suit) be earned with 850 sniper kills, .....why couldn't IW simply make it be something like...
"Win 850 games of TDM while playing solo, and getting one sniper kill".
Yeah. Win those 850 games, you get the very cool looking sniping ghillie suit. Just imagine how much the game would change, with that ONE simple correction to the reward system. Imagine how many players just might finish a game, fighting to the end to get that win, to get them closer to the ghillie suit!
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Post by iw5000 on May 22, 2014 9:17:27 GMT -5
What I mean by 'cheap' kills.....are when a player goes and lies in a obscure corner, plants his scope on one narrow line of sight, and then just waits minutes for a player to come by. You'll often see this in games like Domination or other objective games. Where a supposed sniper is having his ass handed to him, his team getting throttled, and he'll be doing the above while guarding the one flag he has. Oblivious to the objectives.
The kill is 'cheap' in a sense that the dumbazz is probably going to go 4-9 and be completely irrelevant to the objectives of the game he is playing. Maybe 'cheap' isn't a good word to use. Perhaps a better one is meaningless? When you get a lot of players like this in a lobby, whose primary goal is just to find a way to get 4 to 7 meaningless sniper rifle kills for some dumb camo or ghillie suit, it wrecks gameplay.
And congratulation on your 15 to 20 KD ratios. You sound like one of the greatest FPS players on this board.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on May 22, 2014 10:34:09 GMT -5
I'm with you on this iw5000. This really sounds like more of a motivation and social problem than a balance issue hence rebalancing the weapons to tackle the perceived OPness is pretty blatantly wrong.
I can see why the ghillie suit would be an issue. It should definitely be tied to sniping, but as a reward it should be awarded for a style of play that is constructive rather than destructive. Unfortunately IW really really really likes strait up kill counts for challenges.
It could also incorporate score per minute or many other possible stats. Unfortunately CoD has a long history of destructive reward systems built right into the challenges, unlocks, killstreaks, and deathstreaks. Something I think Treyarch has attempted to make a lot of tweaks to in BO1, though I don't know that much about how that changed or didn't in BO2. Can't say I'm totally onboard with all the tweaks. For example, I'm 90% in favor of the non stacking killstreaks, but it also removes some depth and synergy from picking killstreaks that I missed. That's one thing I liked about having different KS groups in MW3.
Reward structures are terribly important, and I think not really given nearly enough attention, especially post-launch.
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Post by thomasthetrain on May 22, 2014 10:40:09 GMT -5
And the solution? It's not to be found in tweaking the maps, or doing some technical coding correction on ADS'ing or damage points. The solution is to be found with the simple motivation. People snipe for a number of reasons, and most involve things that DON'T involve actually playing the objective or trying to help get kills. Most people snipe because they think it's cool. They want to be like 'Optic' (setting aside that logic is dated). They think sniping kills are more legit. They think it will make for better youtube montages. They are working for a camo. They are working for a ghillie suit. All these things, and not a one of them involving being actually useful as a teammate. I would venture a guess 90% of people sniping, are doing so for those reasons. And it's with those reasons, ...the 'fix' must be addressing. Let me give an example of a simple fix. Rather than making one of the supposed coolest camos (the ghillie suit) be earned with 850 sniper kills, .....why couldn't IW simply make it be something like... Has it not occured to you that people do it, not because "it look 1337 pr0" or for montages/clips, or anything of status. But merely because it's fun? I know it sounds strange that using an inefficient weapon that is worse (in a lot of situations) is fun. But adding a challenge and a higher skill ceiling helps add longevity to the game. It's kind of what i was talking about before, Tf2 can be fun event even when playing against awful players simply because mechanics like rocket jumping are challenging (sort of..) and have depth that can make even a complete stomp interesting (and pulling a 20:1 in tf2 is not an ego thing, the game is not like CoD where you die in 1-2 seconds so getting a high k/d isn't the end of the world, the highest I've seen is like 86). Same goes for CS or quake they each have interesting mechanics (like strafe jumping in quake). Quick scoping is kind of like rj'ing or strafe jumping in that it's a challenging mechanic that has some practical uses, but going completely over board past the practical spectrum is very entertaining to some since it adds something to improve upon and it keeps the game play challenging and exciting. Sure they could go play competitive or whatever but that's not everyone's gig. Really CoD just isn't a game with a ton of skill depth (hence why PC players play(ed) promod in their competitive formats) and something like quick scoping (or knife only or w/e) adds some more challenge and fun to it.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on May 22, 2014 10:44:32 GMT -5
Excellent post, Aphoristic. As for what I see needs to be done to end the quickscoping epidemic, two things come to mind: - The autoaim on sniper rifles should not work unless the user's target is at least 15 meters away. Close range sniper kills should come down to aiming skill, not the game handholding railgunners with obscene amounts of autoaim (as seen in MW2, MW3, and BO2). Basically, disable autoaim at close ranges. But autoaim should be on for ARs, SMGs and LMGs? Shouldn't all kills come down to skill using your logic. - A sniper rifle should never be able to get a one shot kill to any part of the limbs or lower half of the body. Maybe have one sniper that can one shot the lower half, but give it movement and ADS penalties. Regular weapons get no reward for poor accuracy; neither should sniper rifles. yes they do, rapid fire follow up shots and low recoil. I should always be at an advantage against a sniper at close range with an AR/SMG/Shotgun. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept for most of this forum to grasp. you are at an advantage As for the other good reason to fix sniping, look no further than the community, of which snipers are objectively the worst portion. I need not remind everyone of the threats made to David Vonderhaar following the (extremely minor) sniper rifle nerfs he did to fix Black Ops 2. Every game has Search and Destroy lobbies flooded with vulgar internet tough guys and ignorant children looking for montage clips and "reg gunners" to yell at. A Youtuber went into a "sniper rifle only" lobby in CoD4 and was told to leave. When he got a kill with a regular weapon, an angry railgunner messaged him, calling the Youtuber "fat" and hoped that his "grandfather had died in the twin towers*." These awful people and their annoying, disruptive playstyle should not be tolerated, and hopefully nerfing sniper rifles will force arrogant railgunners out of newer titles to create a more mature and accepting environment for normal people to enjoy. * In case you were wondering if this claim is true, as well as see a video that sums up why I dislike snipers, see below. Because no other section of the community has EVER sent death threats to Developers. And no other section has ever bitched about what guns someone was using And no other section has ever insulted other players
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mannon
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Post by mannon on May 22, 2014 11:22:31 GMT -5
There seem to be two conversations going on here. One is about quickscoping, and the other about lobbies full of players tactical loitering with sniper rifles... which is not really quickscoping per se. In fact players really going all out quickscoping would be playing more like AR users in their mobility and seeking out medium range engagements to railgun. If you're just tactical loitering then you can railgun or actually use the sniper scope situationally.
As for actual quickscoping, yeah... it is fun, when you can do it. It's definitely a challenge, and it's definitely harder than just using an AR. Aim assist helps, but no more than it does the AR's. (Though many snipers would welcome pushing the min distance for ADS aim assist out as this would actually provide a benefit when sniping long range targets by keeping some foreground enemies that run across line of sight from fouling your aim.) And mistakes have higher penalties for QSers as well. As said by many a bro. QS is not OP.
Mechanically speaking weapon roles in CoD are usually fairly broadly defined and try to remember the fact that a weapon catagorized as a sniper rifle or AR, ect... is merely a representation intended to give players some idea of how it functions. Weapons in CoD do not function in a way that could even loosely be construed to be realistic, so there is no objective definition of how a weapon "should" function. We should take the weapon types really as more of a suggestion than a hard rule anyway, and besides that most sniper rifles are still basically just rifles. There's really no reason why a rifle, (slow firing or not) should be completely useless at a medium and even close ranges just because it has a scope on it. Yes, AR's should, and do have an advantage over sniper weapons at closer ranges and arguably even at longer ranges for head to head fights.
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wwaa
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Post by wwaa on May 22, 2014 11:34:04 GMT -5
I've seen solo TDM recently on Ghosts, where most of the 11 other players are sniping. Most of them suck, but they were sniping. It's not uncommon. And see a map like Whiteout, Stormfront, Stonehaven, it's almost a given most players will be sniping. so basically there were players actually having FUN playing cod:mp the way they want? it should be banned or blocked somehow ....
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Post by iw5000 on May 22, 2014 11:37:12 GMT -5
And the solution? It's not to be found in tweaking the maps, or doing some technical coding correction on ADS'ing or damage points. The solution is to be found with the simple motivation. People snipe for a number of reasons, and most involve things that DON'T involve actually playing the objective or trying to help get kills. Most people snipe because they think it's cool. They want to be like 'Optic' (setting aside that logic is dated). They think sniping kills are more legit. They think it will make for better youtube montages. They are working for a camo. They are working for a ghillie suit. All these things, and not a one of them involving being actually useful as a teammate. I would venture a guess 90% of people sniping, are doing so for those reasons. And it's with those reasons, ...the 'fix' must be addressing. Let me give an example of a simple fix. Rather than making one of the supposed coolest camos (the ghillie suit) be earned with 850 sniper kills, .....why couldn't IW simply make it be something like... Has it not occured to you that people do it, not because "it look 1337 pr0" or for montages/clips, or anything of status. But merely because it's fun? I know it sounds strange..... not really, because I already said what you mentioned, said it that right up there in my post "They think sniping kills are more legit."So like, yeah. It did occur to me. People often snipe because they view that gun to be more legit, it requiring more skill to use, more challenge, more whatever....therefore making them more legit of a player, etc...I suppose you just didn't notice I said it? Or were confused to what I meant by that? Let me ask you, do you even play CoD? Especially the recent versions? * * edit. I am asking this not to be dismissive of your views, but reading your comments, you don't seem to have any understanding of what goes on in a typical CoD game. You appear to be trying to make the connection that most people who are sniping, are doing so because it is more challenging, giving them an opportunity to test their skills. Now this is just my opinion, but from what I have seen, ....there is hardly anyone sniping in CoD Ghosts that are doing so because they need to be challenged. Most people I see sniping just downright suck azz and are just flat out terrible players. No game awareness. No interest in playing the objective. Nothing. And yes, they might be doing it just for fun, but while having their fun, they are stinking the lobby up.
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Post by iw5000 on May 22, 2014 11:39:50 GMT -5
I've seen solo TDM recently on Ghosts, where most of the 11 other players are sniping. Most of them suck, but they were sniping. It's not uncommon. And see a map like Whiteout, Stormfront, Stonehaven, it's almost a given most players will be sniping. so basically there were players actually having FUN playing cod:mp the way they want? it should be banned or blocked somehow .... No where did I say banned or blocked.
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Post by iw5000 on May 22, 2014 11:45:29 GMT -5
I'm with you on this iw5000. This really sounds like more of a motivation and social problem than a balance issue hence rebalancing the weapons to tackle the perceived OPness is pretty blatantly wrong. I can see why the ghillie suit would be an issue. It should definitely be tied to sniping, but as a reward it should be awarded for a style of play that is constructive rather than destructive. Unfortunately IW really really really likes strait up kill counts for challenges. It could also incorporate score per minute or many other possible stats. Unfortunately CoD has a long history of destructive reward systems built right into the challenges, unlocks, killstreaks, and deathstreaks. Something I think Treyarch has attempted to make a lot of tweaks to in BO1, though I don't know that much about how that changed or didn't in BO2. Can't say I'm totally onboard with all the tweaks. For example, I'm 90% in favor of the non stacking killstreaks, but it also removes some depth and synergy from picking killstreaks that I missed. That's one thing I liked about having different KS groups in MW3. Reward structures are terribly important, and I think not really given nearly enough attention, especially post-launch. You said this better than me, I like the word 'destructive reward systems'. That kind of nailed it. And it hasn't gotten better with CoD Ghosts. Here's a perfect example. UP to a few weeks ago, the game was still rewarding players for lean kills, as a requirement to getting gold guns. WTF? I know IW was all jizzed up about their new 'LEAN' mechanism, but to then put gold gun requirement in the game, that forces players to do this? Good lord. The height of stupidity. All this requirement did was make a large percentage of the player base basically stop moving, sit in obscure corners behind objects, and try to line up the 'lean mechanism' so they could fulfill the 50 to 100 lean kill requirements. Dumb, dumb and more dumb. Ever watch a lobby where half the players are trying to get this done? I've seen it. It's boring. It wrecks gameplay.
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banana
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Post by banana on May 22, 2014 13:01:30 GMT -5
This thread sucks.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on May 22, 2014 14:15:41 GMT -5
It always does, every time we do it.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on May 23, 2014 17:52:51 GMT -5
I don't know how have we came this far without any sniper jok-
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on May 23, 2014 18:12:52 GMT -5
I never understood how you could typ-
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2014 21:28:01 GMT -5
The only thing that feels cheaper than a 1-shot kill is being shot once and having Damage Over Time finish you off. We can have fewer complaints about railgunning by having more people complain about DOT. Think about it.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on May 24, 2014 0:55:11 GMT -5
Nice!
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wings
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Post by wings on May 24, 2014 16:33:05 GMT -5
Regular weapons have no reward for poor accuracy? What? Why are there no body multipliers less than 1 for regular guns then? And all apart from BO2 you can dropshot with full accuracy anyway.
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Post by hard1ine on Jul 27, 2014 15:47:02 GMT -5
More than 50% of your post is completely pointless and irrelevant to any specific functional part of the game being discussed here. So according to your "logic," second hand smoke isn't a negative aspect of cigarettes. Getting rid of a toxic part of the community being catered to with overpowered weapons is a great reason to nerf snipers. You also failed to address my other valid points, and avoided the one that you know you cannot possibly defend. Great job. No one on this board has made a logical counterargument yet. But please, feel free to keep trying.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Jul 27, 2014 17:24:57 GMT -5
I don't think you know what parts of your post I'm talking about.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Jul 27, 2014 18:17:03 GMT -5
More than 50% of your post is completely pointless and irrelevant to any specific functional part of the game being discussed here. So according to your "logic," second hand smoke isn't a negative aspect of cigarettes. Getting rid of a toxic part of the community being catered to with overpowered weapons is a great reason to nerf snipers. You also failed to address my other valid points, and avoided the one that you know you cannot possibly defend. Great job. No one on this board has made a logical counterargument yet. But please, feel free to keep trying. Actually the effects of second hand smoke are still debatable. Oh and snipers are not overpowered
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Post by Aphoristic on Jul 27, 2014 18:22:57 GMT -5
Actually the effects of second hand smoke are still debatable. Oh and snipers are not overpowered They aren't debated. And it's never been about overpowered or not. It's been about how unhealthy they are for the game.
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