wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
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Post by wittyscorpion on Aug 16, 2012 10:57:27 GMT -5
Talking about COD maps, what are your first impressions on BO2 maps revealed?
Yemen:
Turbine:
Cargo:
Aftermath:
(also the remake of Nuketown - Neketown 2025)
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 16, 2012 11:06:00 GMT -5
All three appear to be tight corrider type of maps. Maze'ish. Aftermath might be a bit more open....but it sure seems like a leaning towards close quarter, quick reflex/finger twitching battles.
All four also seem to have some spots where people can overlook wide areas.....but those spots seem limited, and easily identifiable.
I'm making a big generalization here, but the maps seem more 'MW3'ish, than even Blops'ish. Blops had some really wide open maps. Maps like Discovery (artic map), Hazard, Drivein, Convey, silo, hotel, Havana.....I suppose many of the above were map pack add ons, but these maps really had some open spaces in the middle.
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Post by illram on Aug 16, 2012 12:33:39 GMT -5
I probably already pointed it out in this thread but in every CoD game since MW1 all the maps are variations on this basic premise: 2 sides, with 3 paths between them, with alternate pathways to transect the 3 main avenues. MW3 seemed to mess with this basic premise on some maps (e.g. Dome, it is hard to tell which are the "sides" in that map, Lockdown is similarly sort of ambiguous) but more or less they are all variations on this theme. Mission and Village, for example, are basically textbook.
To me all the games since MW1 have basically the same maps. BO felt like there was less variety in the maps, but really they are not all that different. To me there are two glaring differences in MW3 map design however: objective placement and spawn placement. Both can make a map play much, much different. Even in the new maps, Domination flags for example are heavily skewed towards one side or another. In MW2 and MW1, I remember the flags being much more even. To me this is the biggest difference.
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 16, 2012 13:03:43 GMT -5
To me all the games since MW1 have basically the same maps. BO felt like there was less variety in the maps, but really they are not all that different. To me there are two glaring differences in MW3 map design however: objective placement and spawn placement. Both can make a map play much, much different. Even in the new maps, Domination flags for example are heavily skewed towards one side or another. In MW2 and MW1, I remember the flags being much more even. To me this is the biggest difference. I'm going to respectfully disagree with you illram. I loved all the points you made, great points, but the last one....on the Dom flags, disagree on. I've played mostly Dom since MW1. What we see on MW3, in regards to skewed maps, is about the same with every other game. That is....some maps are skewed, unbalanced, ...but most are fair. The proportions are about the same between games. I know, because i have measured them, with each game. I have a thread up on this board, for the maps on MW3... denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=3478&page=1The numbers are up on that post (i also reposted the chart below) 10 of the 16 stock maps are pretty fair. (two second or less advantage). Only really three of the stock 16 can one consider really unbalanced. Dome, Outpost and Village. Those three are horribly unbalanced. Even the new maps, up to Oasis. Only one of the six DLC maps falls into the unfair category, that map being Liberation (C spawn being about five second slower) But you know what? Every CoD game has had a few maps that fell iinto the above unfair category, about the same proportion of maps. MW2 had it's fair share of unbalanced maps, so did MW1. Blops and WaW are included in that too. Long story short....MW3 isn't any different from the other games, in terms of having a few unbalanced Dom maps.  |
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Post by illram on Aug 16, 2012 14:13:46 GMT -5
I remember that excellent, excellent post... and I do not challenge that most of the MW3 maps are fair. But I never, ever remember any MW1 map or MW2 maps with such a huge advantage as the last three in that list. Nor do I remember any map like Fallen, where for some weird reason people spawn next to B. I also might disagree that A is neutral on Fallen--at the start it is the neutral insofar as it is farthest away from both spawns, but the way the map usually plays, B is the neutral, in that you can guard it easier while holding either A or C, as opposed to guarding A and C. It is also in a typically neutral place--i.e., a middle point of the map, rather than a corner (A and C are in a corner, more or less) and, at least in my experience, you usually hold C and B better than A and C, or A and B.
I don't play with organized teams though so in your experience Fallen might play differently.
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 16, 2012 14:19:45 GMT -5
I remember that excellent, excellent post... and I do not challenge that most of the MW3 maps are fair. But I never, ever remember any MW1 map or MW2 maps with such a huge advantage as the last three in that list. Nor do I remember any map like Fallen, where for some weird reason people spawn next to B. I also might disagree that A is neutral on Fallen--at the start it is the neutral insofar as it is farthest away from both spawns, but the way the map usually plays, B is the neutral. It is also in a typically neutral place--i.e., a middle point of the map, rather than a corner (A and C are in a corner, more or less) and, at least in my experience, you usually hold C and B better than A and C, or A and B. I don't play with organized teams though so in your experience Fallen might play differently. - 'A' on Fallen was listed as neutral, ...solely because it was the middle flag. The one squad, starts practically right next to the B flag. For discussion purposes, it really doesn't matter what the letter of the flag is. A and B could be swapped out with each other. - A is usually the contested flag in Fallen, imho. B and C are the two held flags...people battle over A. A is usually the first to go. - I can't find my spreadsheets right now (at work), but trust me. There were unbalanced spawn start maps on MW2 and prior games. At least two or three. And even more than those...there were some ridiculously unbalanced re-spawning sides too. Derrail comes to mind on MW2. Bog comes to mind, on MW1. You get stuck on the wrong side of the map...you are f*cked. |
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Post by illram on Aug 16, 2012 16:55:05 GMT -5
Why would they make B the start flag though when it is always the neutral? Why not make that the A flag? Seems needlessly confusing and a silly thing to do on their part. Since all of the flags on that map are on the sides or corners, I'd say B is still the "neutral" as in, B is the one you need to hold in addition to another to win. I don't usually win holding A and C. It's also the only one that is sort of in the middle.
In MW2 and 1, B was usually somewhere in the center of the map. There may have been differences in how quick it took from side to side, but it was in the middle more or less. Yeah there were bad sides and good sides. You cannot avoid that unless you just make a giant box, which is not very interesting. But MW3 maps seem more inclined to put B off somewhere else, like in a corner (Dome) or make it confusingly non-neutral for no reason (Fallen) or stick it way off on the side (Resistance, Blackbox.) Dome is a really egregious example to me. In MW2 and 1 B seemed to be consistently in a middle area. In MW3 that formula seems to not be as important to the map designer.
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 16, 2012 18:29:16 GMT -5
Why would they make B the start flag though when it is always the neutral? Why not make that the A flag? Seems needlessly confusing and a silly thing to do on their part. Since all of the flags on that map are on the sides or corners, I'd say B is still the "neutral" as in, B is the one you need to hold in addition to another to win. I don't usually win holding A and C. It's also the only one that is sort of in the middle. With the way the spawns work....if you control A, you will ultimately control B. If you control C, it is very difficult to hard B. This is just something i have notice, playing this map on MW3. When you say B was in the middle, you are referring to the classic 'linear' Dom map design. A nice rectangle, with A and C at the ends, B perfectly in the middle. MW2's maps weren't all like that. A map like 'Estate'....it was not a straight linear map. B was off to the side, in more of a triangular pattern. Ditto that for a map like 'Underpass'....which again, was not linear. The B flag was completely triangular in relation to A and C. And again...some Mw2 maps were unbalanced. A map like Skidrow...almost a 3.2 sec difference between A and C. How about Subbase? 10.4 vs 14.6....another lopsided map. And on this map, with the B flag sitting right in the middle, overlooked by two high rise building..it was VERY hard to get it back, once lost. |
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Post by hardline on Aug 17, 2012 23:42:59 GMT -5
No maps like Downturn or Resistance with cars, barrels, and mountains of crap thrown everywhere. Those are awful.
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Post by Broadband on Aug 18, 2012 6:05:59 GMT -5
Bad maps in each CoD (IMO, and from a general perspective)*:
CoD4: Pipeline, Shipment, Countdown, Downpour, Bloc, WETWORK
WaW: All of the maps with tanks
MW2: Derail, Karachi, Underpass, Favela, Scrapyard, Rust, Estate, Sub Base, Rundown
Black Ops: Array, Cracked, Crisis; indifferent towards WMD and Jungle but don't downright hate them
MW3: Village, Resistance, Downturn, Fallen, Outpost; indifferent towards Mission, Carbon, and Bakaara
On a side note, I don't get the hate towards MW3's maps. They aren't the greatest, but I still find myself enjoying this game. I don't feel the maps are holding it back at all. There is plenty wrong with the game though, don't get me wrong.
*DLC not included.
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 18, 2012 10:47:06 GMT -5
CoD4: Pipeline, Shipment, Countdown, Downpour, Bloc, WETWORK WaW: All of the maps with tanks MW2: Derail, Karachi, Underpass, Favela, Scrapyard, Rust, Estate, Sub Base, Rundown Black Ops: Array, Cracked, Crisis; indifferent towards WMD and Jungle but don't downright hate them MW3: Village, Resistance, Downturn, Fallen, Outpost; indifferent towards Mission, Carbon, and Bakaara And this is why we must all keep in mind that this topic is a matter of opinion, because I disagree with absolutely every one of these except shipment, countdown, wetwork, and village. WaW's tank maps were awesome. A great change of pace every once in a while while playing the game. The tanks added some fun new strategy elements....without going overboard. Loved it. Maps like Seelow were a blast to play. |
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 18, 2012 10:57:41 GMT -5
I didn't play W@W much so I can't comment really. I didn't mind the tanks, but I didn't stay with the game long enough to really put them into a category. I always kicked ass whenever I got one though  They were fun. Only like 3 or 4 maps had them...so they didn't come up that much. But when they did, it was fun. Probably even more fun when other people used them....because there was something uniquely thrilling about sneaking up on a tank, getting behind it, and then plastering a sticky-bomb on it...and watching the tank be disabled. Or laying a C4 trap...and nailing it that way. And yeah....maps like Seelow...where one team could snag all the tanks....oh the horror on the opponents. Some massive beat downs there!!! A lot of people hated on WaW, because it went back to WW2, after MW1 had moved forward. So a lot of IW fanboys unneedingly ripped into the game, mostly for reasons like that. I never understood that hate. It was a good, fun game with some epic maps |
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Post by Broadband on Aug 18, 2012 16:31:28 GMT -5
I didn't play W@W much so I can't comment really. I didn't mind the tanks, but I didn't stay with the game long enough to really put them into a category. I always kicked ass whenever I got one though They were fun. Only like 3 or 4 maps had them...so they didn't come up that much. But when they did, it was fun. Probably even more fun when other people used them....because there was something uniquely thrilling about sneaking up on a tank, getting behind it, and then plastering a sticky-bomb on it...and watching the tank be disabled. Or laying a C4 trap...and nailing it that way. And yeah....maps like Seelow...where one team could snag all the tanks....oh the horror on the opponents. Some massive beat downs there!!! A lot of people hated on WaW, because it went back to WW2, after MW1 had moved forward. So a lot of IW fanboys unneedingly ripped into the game, mostly for reasons like that. I never understood that hate. It was a good, fun game with some epic maps I liked WaW a lot, probably even more than CoD4. Really, apart from the MP40 and general superiority of the SMGs (but not grossly so), the game was pretty darn balanced. It fixed a lot of CoD4's problems. The tank maps weren't horrible, but probably some of the most frustration I've ever experienced was people tank whoring the whole match. There just wasn't a darned thing you could do. One player with satchel charges could only do so much before he'd get blown up by one of 4 enemy tanks driving around the map. |
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Post by UrbaneVirtuoso on Aug 18, 2012 16:40:28 GMT -5
Bazookas and stickies?
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Post by Broadband on Aug 18, 2012 16:44:00 GMT -5
Bazookas and stickies? Were next to useless in taking out tanks. Much like RPGs were in taking out the chopper of doom in CoD4. |
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wwaa
True Bro
PC / PS4 / X1
Posts: 2,086
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Post by wwaa on Aug 18, 2012 18:07:46 GMT -5
No maps like Downturn or Resistance with cars, barrels, and mountains of crap thrown everywhere. Those are awful. well Downturn is much better than any BO map I saw ... |
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Post by Marvel4 on Aug 18, 2012 18:18:23 GMT -5
No maps like Downturn or Resistance with cars, barrels, and mountains of crap thrown everywhere. Those are awful. well Downturn is much better than any BO map I saw ... LOL... no. |
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 18, 2012 22:11:16 GMT -5
well Downturn is much better than any BO map I saw ... LOL... no. x2 |
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Post by UrbaneVirtuoso on Aug 18, 2012 22:12:54 GMT -5
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asasa
True Bro
fuck
Posts: 4,255 
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Post by asasa on Aug 18, 2012 22:14:21 GMT -5
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Post by iw5000 on Aug 18, 2012 22:26:20 GMT -5
Fu ck all yall downturn is the tits. I like Downturn. Fun map. No problem with it. But with that, some of the WaW maps were awesome. Take a map like 'Downfall'....that just felt epic, every time i played it. It played in an epic manner. Great map. An All time classic in CoD   |
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Post by jackaltornmoons on Aug 19, 2012 20:59:57 GMT -5
MW3 Maps I don't play if I can possibly avoid it (No DLC): Village/Interchange/Downturn/Outpost/Carbon/Bakaara/Fallen BO Maps I don't play if I can possibly avoid it (All DLC): Kowloon/Nuketown x5 |
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Post by iw5000 on Sept 13, 2012 9:12:35 GMT -5
Wanted to resurface this, because IW has done something right with Elite and MW3. They have delivered on the map end. I used to spend $30 to $45 for three map content before (usually three content packs, I can't remember how much I spent on them, $10 each? $15 each?)....and this time, for the $50 I spent...i have received twenty maps.
They delivered here. So I thought that was pretty good and as a bonus, I got all the Elite clan stuff too (contests, organization, etc..)
[/size] - (26) 14 original plus 12 maps
MW2[/size] - (26) 16 original plus 10 maps
World at War[/size] - (22) 13 original plus 9 maps
MW1[/size] - (19) 15 original plus 4 maps[/quote]
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Post by iw5000 on Sept 13, 2012 9:31:20 GMT -5
I've gotten 12 of those for $7.50 because me and a friend did that stupid trick to half the price when they were already 50% off. I sure as hell dont regret it. I wouldn't pay $50 for all that though, that's just me. Good for you. But it was still was a deal at $50 as I got all 20, not 12. Plus, I got the other things too (chaos mode, spec ops, etc..) plus I got Elite premium which involved all the clan ops. I'm pretty happy. Some things in life aren't really worth saving $20 on. That's like only a few drinks at a bar one night. Why worry about that? |
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Sept 15, 2012 4:55:58 GMT -5
I like playing on Downturn. It's the metagame map of MW3. I think the map itself is ok, but I vote it knowing that the other team probably hates it (since so many people do). It has been so unpopular for so long that I think there are a lot of people online that haven't bothered to learn it (since it almost never gets voted).
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Post by Broadband on Sept 15, 2012 5:54:48 GMT -5
I like playing on Downturn. It's the metagame map of MW3. I think the map itself is ok, but I vote it knowing that the other team probably hates it (since so many people do). It has been so unpopular for so long that I think there are a lot of people online that haven't bothered to learn it (since it almost never gets voted). I agree. I don't quite get why Downturn gets this much hate. There are definitely maps worse than Downturn in other CoDs. |
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asasa
True Bro
fuck
Posts: 4,255
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Post by asasa on Sept 15, 2012 16:50:38 GMT -5
The center area is just really poorly done. Otherwise I think the map is alright.
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wwaa
True Bro
PC / PS4 / X1
Posts: 2,086
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Post by wwaa on Sept 18, 2012 4:20:36 GMT -5
For me Downturn is similar in design to Vacant.
If I’d have to "expand Vacant" it could be something like Downturn: rooms become buildings with many rooms and corridors become streets, no overwatching positions, open area on one side of the map only with one flag in DOM, the opposite flag in a big room; SMGs must be effective so a lot of CQC areas slightly "separated" from each other, just like on Vacant.
Many flanking routes = no easy camping. Noob rushers pay for blind running. Tough combat many times. All weapons effective, even tac. knife. Many playstyles possible. Teamwork important factor. Patience required. Moving necessary. No wonder it is the least voted map.
No idiotic “dedicated sniping positions”, elevated areas, stupid windows (Lockdown!), populated with all kind of nooby campers all bloody time.
Downturn is a good battlefield - where the enemies might be coming from many directions, but usually they are in the nearest building! - in opposition to obvious, plain and simple maps like Crash: 2 spawns with 2 sniping positions and some open area in the center (dead zone) overwatched by 2 groups of nooby campers, counter-sniping each other and some smart rushers running around.
blah blah blah .... great map better than many DLC ideas.
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