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Post by iw5000 on Apr 10, 2012 9:00:42 GMT -5
I see to many to mention, posts about how MW3's maps are boring, tiny and unoriginal....and how past games like MW2 were like the Michelangelo's of map design - brilliant, intelligent and awe inspiring. Is this really the case? Or is this just an example of typical human behavior in creating fuzzy memories? The purpose of this thread isn't to shout out insults as to why one game was better than the other....but to seriously break down each of the past games. For example...the original maps andwhat they offered in map packs, Do we even remember? A list will be given below. Adding to that, hopefully actually discuss if one set of maps were 'bigger' or 'smaller' than the others. Are they truly THAT different game from game? NOTE......Hopefully by getting all the maps onto one page, and some decent discussion, we can break it down analytically and actually answer some of the above questions. And maybe as a bonus.....come up with a set of good criteria, in regards to what makes a good map? Is it color? Size? Buildings? Rooms? Levels? And if we have a good criteria....then apply to the past games, and actually see how they stack up.  ---------------------------- Here a list of all the maps, to help jog some memories.... MW3 - (33) 16 original plus 20 map-pack maps (to date) Original Maps (16 total...11 & 5 ) - (GW) = Arkaden · Bakaara · Bootleg · Downturn · Fallen · Interchange · Outpost · Resistance · Seatown · Underground · Village · (6v6) = Carbon* · Dome* · Hardhat* · Lockdown* · Mission* Map Pack Feb - Liberation · Piazza Map Pack March - Overwatch - Black Box Map Pack April - Foundation · Sanctuary Map Pack May - Oasis · (Erosion, Aground, Lookout, Getaway) Map Pack June - Terminal · (Vortex, UTurn, Intersection) Map Pack July - Decommission, Offshore Map Pack Aug - (No MP maps, on Spec ops and Chaos Mode)Map Pack Sep - Gulch, Parrish, Boardwalk Black Ops[/size] - (26) 14 original plus 12 maps callofduty.wikia.com/wiki/Call_of_Duty:_Black_OpsOriginal Maps (14, 11 & 3 ) - Array · Crisis · Cracked · Firing Range* · Grid · Hanoi · Havana · Jungle · Launch · Nuketown* · Radiation · Summit* · Villa · WMD First Strike (4) - Berlin Wall · Discovery · Kowloon · Stadium Escalation (4) - Convoy · Hotel · Stockpile · Zoo - Annihilation (4) - Hangar 18 · Drive-in · Silo · Hazard MW2[/size] - (26) 16 original plus 10 maps (* four of these ten were rehashed old maps from MW1) Original Maps (16) - Afghan · Derail · Estate · Favela · Highrise · Invasion · Karachi · Quarry · Rundown · Rust · Scrapyard · Skidrow · Sub Base · Terminal · Underpass · Wasteland Stimulus - Bailout · Salvage · Storm · Crash* · Overgrown* (redo maps from MW1) Resurgence - Carnival · Fuel · Trailer Park · *Vacant · *Strike (redo maps from MW1) World at War[/size] - (22) 13 original plus 9 maps Original (13) - Airfield · Asylum · Castle · Cliffside · Courtyard · Dome · Downfall · Hangar · Makin · Outskirts · Roundhouse · Seelow · Upheaval Map Pack 1 - Knee Deep · Nightfire · Station · Map Pack 2 - Banzai · Corrosion · Sub Pens · Map Pack 3 - Battery · Breach · Revolution · MW1[/size] - (19) 15 original plus 4 maps callofduty.wikia.com/wiki/Call_of_Duty_4:_Modern_WarfareOriginal (15) - Ambush · Backlot · Bloc · Bog · Countdown · Crash · Crossfire · District · Downpour · Overgrown · Pipeline · Shipment · Showdown · Strike · Vacant · Wet Work · Map Packs - Broadcast · Chinatown · Creek · Killhouse ........ |
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 10, 2012 9:13:27 GMT -5
And to help get the thread going.....what would good criteria be for breaking down the quality of a map? I'll list some thoughts below, which are probably incomplete, but hopefully help out.
1. Originality - Same old 'burned old building' map, versus something entirely different and unique?
2. Use of colors? Bright colors versus dull greys?
3. Map size? Bigger is better? Or smaller? Or a nonfactor?
4. Use of levels and tiers?
5. Number of rooms available? Or lack of any rooms?
6. Extra things in the map, like shutting doors and interactive elements?
7. Number of cars/objects that explode...or lack of exploding objects?
8. Verticality and height? (towers, etc..)
9. Use of basement and bottom level corriders?
0. Open spaces vs closed/tight spaces...'balance'!!!
1. Sniper functionality (some might want this, some might hate it?)
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 10, 2012 9:46:15 GMT -5
Here's on category.....jungle/forrest style maps. Which version of CoD was best? These are maps that have lots of vegetation as the main feature. Where woods/trees/brush are the predominant features of the map, not the buildings, which would be secondary.
MW3? The closest/best choice here would be 'Village', 'Liberation', the new map, would be another....a very forrestry feeling type of map.
Blops? Only one good option here....'Jungle'. Blops was mostly urban/village environments.
MW2? 'RunDown' or 'Estate', maybe Wasteland....as most of the map is fields.
WaW? 'Banzai' and 'Knee Deep' are the easy winners here.
MW1? 'Creek' and 'Overgrown'.
Tough call. I would say the best outside, open style map, that features outside fighting with vegetation/trees,etc, (and trying to avoid buildings).....would have to be MW2's Wasteland. MW1's Creek would be next, perhaps 'Banzai' a close second. The rest are all about equal. Does anyone even remember Banzai or Creek?
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cmck
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Post by cmck on Apr 10, 2012 10:31:04 GMT -5
You should also add in spawns to the checklist. Every map has its own unique spawns so I include that in the judgement of the map.
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Post by Doc H. on Apr 10, 2012 11:59:41 GMT -5
I have only played MW3 without DLC and so far Fallen is my favourite map. Multiple floors, windows, long lines of sights (but often slightly hidden), good amount of cover. Not too much explosives. I like the theme too. When playing this map it doesn't feel like I'm constantly running around in a circle.
Other maps I like are Lockdown, Outpost, Seatown and Bakaara - all similar to Fallen in those ways mentioned above.
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Post by Marvel4 on Apr 10, 2012 13:57:38 GMT -5
Big and open maps are good, small and cramped maps are bad.
I love maps like Array, Villa, Rundown, Underpass, Bloc and Overgrown.
I hate maps like Carbon, Dome, Trailer Park and Shipment. Those maps are only good with very few players.
IMO, MW2 and Black Ops had the best maps.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 10, 2012 14:03:24 GMT -5
You should also add in spawns to the checklist. Every map has its own unique spawns so I include that in the judgement of the map. yeah, that's a great addition. The only problem is, can anyone accurately measure or assess where or how the spawns work? Can it be put to a measurable number, that the spawns in MW1 are say 12% better than the spawns in World at War? For me, I mostly play Domination. I feel pretty comfortable in saying that for all the CoD's (MW1 through MW3)....the spawns are pretty much the same. There is no difference in the coding/game logic between games. You have A & B....they spawn on C, and continue to do so until your side causes their spawn to flip. That has stayed pretty much the same from game to game to game. |
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Post by -3055- on Apr 10, 2012 15:37:50 GMT -5
Marvel4, i dont think you should just nominate all small maps as "bad". for example, nuketown might have been cramped, but it catered to many playstyles. i've seen many great lmg/sniper montages on that map. and firing range isn't so bad simply because there were many long lines of sight.
what really bothers me is mw3 dome on s&d. when you're on the planting side, you spawn inside of the building, meaning you have two easily watchable exits with many many many spots the enemies can headglitch/camp for. and it doesnt help that it's on the planting side, meaning if you dont leave you simply automatically lose. this forces anyone on this side to camp for eternity or to rush as fast as possible and gamble their life. its a horrible map.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 10, 2012 15:48:23 GMT -5
Marvel4, i dont think you should just nominate all small maps as "bad". for example, nuketown might have been cramped, but it catered to many playstyles. i've seen many great lmg/sniper montages on that map. and firing range isn't so bad simply because there were many long lines of sight. what really bothers me is mw3 dome on s&d. when you're on the planting side, you spawn inside of the building, meaning you have two easily watchable exits with many many many spots the enemies can headglitch/camp for. and it doesnt help that it's on the planting side, meaning if you dont leave you simply automatically lose. this forces anyone on this side to camp for eternity or to rush as fast as possible and gamble their life. its a horrible map. Brings up a good point. A map might be horrible for a particular game type, say S&D.....but.....work pretty well for another, like Demolition. Does that make a map bad? |
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Post by Marvel4 on Apr 10, 2012 15:52:05 GMT -5
You're right about Firing Range. It's not too bad, but it's just too small for a lot of players (18 players on PC).
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Post by cmck on Apr 10, 2012 16:12:15 GMT -5
Brings up a good point. A map might be horrible for a particular game type, say S&D.....but.....work pretty well for another, like Demolition. Does that make a map bad? Yes. In the eyes of the players in that playlist its a bad map. If a map isn't good for multiple gamemodes it just makes it that much worse depending on how many gamemodes are broken. Look at Rundown for MW2. It was very hard to attack in demolition, but it wasn't as bad for dom. Nuketown also had a problem with objective gamemodes because it was a small map that excels at ffa. |
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Post by Megaqwerty on Apr 10, 2012 16:29:11 GMT -5
...ignoring the fact that the map could be tweaked for that game mode further post-patch. Maps have multiple dimensions in CoD since any game type can be played on any map.
If a map is good for a certain game type and bad for another, the placement of the objects in the second game type probably was simply poor (see: Village in Dom).
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Post by cmck on Apr 10, 2012 16:39:49 GMT -5
They could change it, but have they ever changed the position of flags or bomb sites before?
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 10, 2012 17:55:21 GMT -5
Brings up a good point. A map might be horrible for a particular game type, say S&D.....but.....work pretty well for another, like Demolition. Does that make a map bad? Yes. In the eyes of the players in that playlist its a bad map. If a map isn't good for multiple gamemodes it just makes it that much worse depending on how many gamemodes are broken. Look at Rundown for MW2. It was very hard to attack in demolition, but it wasn't as bad for dom. Nuketown also had a problem with objective gamemodes because it was a small map that excels at ffa. Nuketown was probably THE best map for Domination and the most popular. Everyone always got excited for it. It played well, had tons of action and people were forced to play...not camp. Over the year i played Blops....I don't recall Nuketown ever losing a vote when choosing maps. |
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Post by cmck on Apr 10, 2012 17:59:12 GMT -5
Fair point. Did you also notice that people back out when its Nuketown? Perhaps because there is no chance it won't be picked?
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Post by Megaqwerty on Apr 10, 2012 19:44:15 GMT -5
I did that. When it was Nuketown for the fifth time in the row. After the patch which fixed that though, I never really noticed that as it was a nice change of pace. Disclaimer though: I was on the Wii for this so Nuketown wasn't really that bad (only 10 players). Map is fucking chaos on PC (18 players). One of my favorite servers on PC was completely vanilla TDM...except for Nuketown, where shotguns only was enforced. Fun stuff. They could change it, but have they ever changed the position of flags or bomb sites before? I don't think so, but they could and, for some of the maps, they definitely should. Dem doesn't appear to be popular on these forums, but quite a few of the overtime bombs are incredibly biased. |
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Post by illram on Apr 11, 2012 11:29:12 GMT -5
A good map will
(1) not have a limited number of choke points relative to each objective.
(2) have a balance between CQC and ranged gunfights
(3) look good
(4) not have completely biased design favoring one side or the other
(5) not have OP camp spots (this is related to 1)
(6) not force players into one or two hot zones, while other dead zones have no action whatsoever (think Downturn; lots of spots on there see no action.)
The first MW was really a tutorial on good maps. Many good ones there. MW2 was also good, although some of the maps took a while to learn and there was a lot more vertical area to play with, which was mostly good (e.g. Highrise). BO maps were very simple and easy to learn and made sense, although they got a little boring after a while and there was not enough variation for sniping. MW3 maps are mostly good but the layouts are a little funky and convoluted and they suffer from the hot zone/dead zone problem, also the "sides" of the map are not as defined and thus sometimes players seem to be coming from all angles (e.g. Dome).
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 11, 2012 11:58:40 GMT -5
MW2 maps suffered heavily with the 'hot spot vs cold spot' stuff.
Take 'RunDown'....the whole back area was hardly every used, the side opposite of the buildings (jungle side). 'Derail' had big swaths of it's map that hardly ever saw action. Probably the biggest culprit for this was 'Seelow' on WaW......for many of the game types (like Dom)...people never even saw the one side of the map.
As far as Downturn....that seems pretty evenly used. At least in Domination. I can't think of any real areas that don't see at least some action.
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Post by j1000 on Apr 11, 2012 12:04:45 GMT -5
I always end up being hypocritical about maps, but here is my general philosophy about them, as a CQC - mid range TDM player.
Several things (sorry if these are repeats):
- Make sure sniper alleys have enough cover to make them somewhat traversable by runners... there should be running routes that don't require extraordinary risks
- Make sure sniping spots are not too defensible
- Make sure players are easily distinguishable from the background objects
- Make sure there are sniper alleys! I like them tamed, but I also like them to be there.
- Make sure there are some CQC areas.
Resistance is an example of a map I don't really like. There are too many places to fire from perfect cover (just the head popping up). Short walls and cars are everywhere, and they are often thick enough to stop bullets.
In addition, the sniper alleys on Resistance are too defensible and offer little cover for someone trying to navigate through them (my CQC bias showing). And for whatever reason, I sometimes find it difficult to pick out players from the background.
As a CQC guy I really like Seatown and Lockdown. I can see why snipers might not favor Seatown. The center of the map is mostly CQC, and sniping is pushed off to the edges. Other maps that I like are Crossfire and Radiation (just off the top of my head). Those maps are the opposite of Seatown: the central parts are sniper alleys, with CQC routes along the edges.
Like I said though, I tend to be hypocritical. Over time I can usually begin to appreciate anything.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 11, 2012 12:12:45 GMT -5
The thread should almost be about Maps....and the game types with them. What might be a great map for Domination, might blow for Demolition. How the developers 'fit' the game type into the map. This changes everything.
I've always like the Domination maps that really work the angle of 'speed vs distance'. Where a player had to make quick decisions in terms of direct open routes, that enabled short distance traveling....versus longer, slower, less hectic routes on the flanks. This makes a good traditional Dom map. Forcing a player to make constant quick decisions. Take longer on the flank, less enemies...or faster up the middle, with more enemies.
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Post by cmck on Apr 11, 2012 12:17:32 GMT -5
Does anyone think that the B flag in Village would be more fair if it was on the center of the route under the bridge? I dislike the clear bias in some of the maps.
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Post by illram on Apr 11, 2012 12:45:39 GMT -5
No, it would be protected from grenades & killstreaks and too easily guarded. On the bridge you at least can get a grenade in there from all sides (from the side it is possible if you angle it properly) and a predator/heli/reaper/ac-130 can also more easily defend it.
I don't know, MW3 maps just seem "weirder," in that there are less defined means of traversing from one side to the other. They seem more chaotic. MW, MW2, and BO you had two defined sides and three ways to get from each side to the other, with ways to traverse between the three. There seemed to be a cleared separation of sides and you could anticipate where players would come from more. At least from what I could remember.
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Post by cmck on Apr 11, 2012 12:52:44 GMT -5
I can't think of anywhere else to put the flag to give both sides a fair game. I guess the routes of that map are poorly planed for dom no matter where the b flag is. I'm going to look at an overhead of it to see if I can't move all three flags to be more fair. Or maybe the starting spawns at least.
I made something with paint and a jpeg of village, but I have no idea how to post it. Help?
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Post by illram on Apr 11, 2012 13:07:25 GMT -5
The ideal is to have it equally hard for either A or C flag owners to protect it more than the other. If it was in the gulley, you could easily hold down A and one of two entrances to get to B.
I think as it is it is fair enough. Neither A nor C owners can hold easily both flags from one spot. Contrast to Dome or Resistance, however, where A is at a clear disadvantage. Fallen (for beginning spawns) also comes to mind. I am not quite sure why they messed with the usual formula of trying to make B the neutral flag in some of these maps.
Demolition on Village is completely screwy with the spawns. Both attacking and defending spawns have a tendency to spawn you way out in the corner away from the bomb sites.
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Post by cmck on Apr 11, 2012 13:09:41 GMT -5
It isn't as bad as some maps. It just annoys me and I want to replace the flags now just to prove that it can be more fair.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 11, 2012 13:22:36 GMT -5
I can't think of anywhere else to put the flag to give both sides a fair game. I guess the routes of that map are poorly planed for dom no matter where the b flag is. I'm going to look at an overhead of it to see if I can't move all three flags to be more fair. Or maybe the starting spawns at least. I made something with paint and a jpeg of village, but I have no idea how to post it. Help? I posted a map below...not yours, but at least a pic. Village right now on Dom...is dreadfully lopsided. I ALWAYS start on the A side, ...so from my perspective, every game we play, we have to spend the first 2 minutes behind. As the C side starting spawn is ridiculously close to B, versus the A side start. They get C & B...we get A...and then spend a while taking shots on the Bridge, trying to get B. Our goal is always to flip the map on Dom. Grab B...and then work towards C...on the left flank, which is easier than the right. Once you get people sitting around their C flag...they'll start to spawn over by A (as everyone knows to clear out) I don't know how one would make the above 'fair'? Whoever is on A, loses the match. You simply spawn waaaaaay to far back in those caves, making any type of push on C or B almost impossible. Plus....you end up getting trapped in a shooting gallery, if your side persists in pushing down the right flank (which is what 9 out of 10 people instinctively do) Bad...bad...bad...all the time doing that. This is where one can really rack up some big scores on the spawn trap. Probably the easiest solution is to simply re-set the spawns on the A side. Rather than in the cave, push them over more towards the A flag, in the cave behind it?  |
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Post by illram on Apr 11, 2012 13:28:22 GMT -5
Starting spawns may not be fair, and if you are against a good opponent who can hold C and B, yes you are screwed. I am talking about flag placement. After the start you can defend A and B pretty much to the same extent you can defend C and B, if you can get B.
Honestly I have never noticed a huge difference between whether I win or lose depending on my spawn in village.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 11, 2012 13:36:14 GMT -5
Starting spawns may not be fair, and if you are against a good opponent who can hold C and B, yes you are screwed. I am talking about flag placement. After the start you can defend A and B pretty much to the same extent you can defend C and B, if you can get B. Honestly I have never noticed a huge difference between whether I win or lose depending on my spawn in village. The better team will win either way....ultimately. My point is that every game, the C start will start off with the lead. That's a reality. Starting spawns dictate it. As far as defending A & B....won't work, unless your team is heavily using TI's. The reality here is simply a numbers game. Each time the A side player respawns, he is generally 40 meters farther back. Over time, this difference will catch up. The C side players will get B. |
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Post by cmck on Apr 11, 2012 14:03:27 GMT -5
Well, since I can't post a picture I'll describe what I mean. C Flag at the white truck area with the spawn close behind it. B at the bottom of the cliff but farther away from C. And the A flag just left of the truck by the bridge. The spawn for A will be right behind it as well so both sides capture their respective flags immediately. Does this make sense and if it does is it better?
And more importantly how did you post that picture. I got that same picture and used paint to draw dots for the flags and spawns but I couldn't figure out how to post it.
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Post by illram on Apr 11, 2012 14:16:36 GMT -5
Unless the opposing team is on B, the A player that has the B flag should spawn at either A or B. If the A player has been killed by someone on the B flag, well, reverse the situation and you have the same result, assuming no one else is guarding it--the successful killer/attacker will have enough time to cap.
I don't think Village presents the more obvious mismatches that other maps present. I think Village is one of the better maps, to be honest. A minor difference here and there is not ultimately going to make a huge difference, other than at the beginning, as you point out that the better team will usually win anyway. But on some maps the advantage is so pronounced it is a real handicap. Not the case here I think.
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