malgato
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Farm ammo, then everyone wipe.
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Post by malgato on Feb 20, 2015 19:38:54 GMT -5
Currently working on a streak of 9 straight losses. So much for the game balancing lobbies. Tough to do much when the other team constantly has heavy ammo and supers. I have been starting out each game strong, but after my team feeds them supers, it all goes to shit. Why are randoms alergic to holding strong positions and maintaining flag control?!
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 20, 2015 19:43:37 GMT -5
Yeah hell if I know. I think it's vendetta mentality. "You killed me, I'll kill you!" And if there's not an enemy in sight for more than 1.5 seconds people feel left out of the action and like they're becoming a filthy camper.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Feb 23, 2015 11:39:42 GMT -5
Took me 58 matches to reach level 5. What's really nice about Iron Banner is it's pretty much the one thing in the game where you're guaranteed to get what you want. I purchased each of the gauntlets, the shotgun, and a few of the scout rifle. I re-rolled the scout rifle until I got a variant with Explosive Rounds and Firefly, looking forward to having that leveled up.
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Post by iw5000 on Feb 23, 2015 11:55:40 GMT -5
My thoughts on the IB, now that it's over.
1. It wasn't easy, but I got to level five. Started the week as a level 22 player, and then played IB from there, up to my last few games as a level 29 & 30. So pretty much, I was looking at a 90% nerf to my abilities, down to a 10-15% nerf at the end.
2. All in all, I didn't find the above that difficult. I cheesed a lot early, sitting in corners and finding Games-in-Progress to rack up losses. Having the emblem and shader on gave me those immediate bonuses, so I was able to roll out tons of points fast. For the most part, I got to IB Level 3 easily. I think by Friday or Saturday. I really didn't play that much (but I did do a little each day) All I really needed were the gloves, and I got those fast. The rest of the trip to Level 5 was just because it was there, the bonuses so large.
3. I will say this. You want to improve your IB game? Play with your damages nerfed 90% for a few days. You really learn to focus on manipulating encounters to your advantage
4. IB players have to be some of the dumbest FPSer players on earth. Destiny's designers aren't far behind either, with how they keep calling this a game that tests skill, but then they use the Control mode...while putting in all these bounties, where very few have anything to do with the game mode. This is dumb. Dumber than dumb. And lazy. Foxtrot Bungie.-
5. Want to do add this. I have been told (via Witty) that Bungie has made it clear there is some element of SBMM in Iron Banner. Not just in terms of "HIGHER LEVEL beats LOWER LEVEL"...but also in regards to how the game lobby is set up. The IB will still try to match up higher levels with higher level opponents. At least in terms of my own anecdotal evidence, I find this to be 100% true. I can say unequivocally that ALL my best games were when playing solo. And while lower level, than when I played grouped up with friends (full party) at level 29. My games where I had 20 to 29 kills...all solo, even in the level 26 to 28 range. I suppose it could have also been a more clean connection, but regardless, playing solo was much kinder to me. Which kind of sucks, as playing with friends is where it's at.
6. All in all, the above doesn't change my opinions on IB. It's still a really dumb gaming idea. IUt should be dumped. And yes, I know it won't be, because the players clamored for it, this particular way. But... the only reason the player base did so, is because they are pussies and scrubs. Playing as a low level all week, I could see this. There are a ton of poor FPSer players in Destiny, dumb ones, and they want it to be easier. They want to take their level 32 players and have 10% to 90% damage advantages on most opponents, because it makes them feel good. They can strut around doing the...
"LOOK AT ME BRUH, I AM A DESTINY PVP GOD, DESTROYING PEOPLE"
Uh, no. Hardly. You are FPSer scrub who needs Destiny Training Wheels style Crucible to actually get any kills. And that's reality. A game where those who have better weapons, more time played (Supers, Launchers on your own side, better guns)...and nothing to do with skill. And IB just adds to that bullshit. From that standpoint, IB fits right in with this game, how it does things in PvP.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Feb 23, 2015 12:14:17 GMT -5
I said this before and I will say it again: to make PvP a much more engaging experience with high replayabliity than just a playground for loot, some of the following are needed: 1) Primary weapons need to be used primarily, special weapons need to be for special occasions; 2) Semi auto weapons need to feel OP over auto; 3) Supers should either be removed or re-designed to reward "smart" play; 4) Heavy need to be placed in the neutral zones; Not saying do this for the entire PvP experience (well, they are already sorta doing 1 & 2 through weapon tuning), but maybe one dedicated playlist or a timed event (no loot rewards, but a separate "rank" that is skill based). What I just described = Halo . To make the above work, the following have to be implemented: a) Visible skill rank (that goes up and down, not an experience based level that can only go up) and SBMM; b) DEDICATED SERVERS!!! Anybody who have enjoyed Halo 5 beta experience though would probably see where I am coming from. Oh, well. This will never happen for Destiny because even the bros here have very different versions of what an ideal PvP experience is like .
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Feb 23, 2015 12:40:35 GMT -5
No: PVP/IB is what it is and needs no changes in Destiny.
(DISCLAIMER: I've really only played Destiny and COD:MW3, BO2, and Ghosts as my multiplayer experience... I don't consider being spawnOMATubed to death in MW2 to be much of a positive experience, so I don't count it very much)
PVP in Destiny is very an anti-COD... a thing that I'm okay with. Because they did it right
COD: you have to play the MP and completely ignore anything else. That's all there is... you can play Zombies and you can play the campaign if you want... but those are side dishes... the sprig of parsely and the orange slice. COD is MP and if you don't do it, it's like going to Paris for a week without going to the Eifel Tower, Notre Dame, Arc d' Triumph, etc etc. Or NYC and not see the Statue of Liberty. It's ridiculous to do so and you wasted your time and money and you should feel bad. In COD, you focus everything on MP: your layout, your guns, your perks, your kill streaks, your game mode, your everything. MP is everything. The Be-all-end-all... alpha and omega... if you don't like your MP experience in COD, then the entirety of your COD experience is ruined. It is... it cannot not be ruined... there are other things, but as I said, they are a waste of your time to do. You might get enjoyment out of them (ie: missing the Eiffel Tower to go see a cool small little art gallery) but in the overall, grand scheme of things, it pales in comparison. If your MP experience sucks in COD, there's nothing else of substance to save your gaming experience. This is why people jump to the assertion that the game sucks right away.
Destiny: PVP is completely avoidable and it affects game play minimally. You can choose not to do PVP and your experience suffers... minimally to nothing. Bungie has done a great job for people like me for diversifying the experience to make almost 2 games in one. Guns, armour, abilities, classes... can be crap in PVE but not in PVP or vice versa. So if you don't like one, the other fills the experience for you. So if your MP experience sucks... you hate it with every fibre of your being, then you have something else to do. Nothing is ruined. There is plenty else to do. You can still seek great enjoyment within the game because it is not a 1 trick MP pony like COD has become. You can create another class with different skills that will diversify the game to give you a new outlook on things. Other than trying different weapon builds, COD can't give you that.
Now, can either PVP or PVE in Destiny be nitpicked to death... sure. Can Destiny be compared to other games and be nitpicked... sure. But what Destiny has going for itself is that they have built a great game where PVE and PVP are both relevant and not interconnected; you can enjoy one or the other. They both exist on equal footing and exist separately: one can thoroughly enjoy their Destiny experience without "missing out"... you can do all PVP and level up and get stuff. You can do all PVE and get stuff. And you can dabble and try both. And if you don't like it, you can still do other stuff.
I'm glad Destiny hasn't and I'm hope Destiny won't go down the COD road and alter their course so that one dominates the other. I'm glad that this section of the board isn't littered with the regular COD issues of SBMM, lag, hackers and glitchers and campers and buffing shotguns threads.
I know I'm in the minority, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Feb 23, 2015 12:56:24 GMT -5
We can disagree on how to change Destiny PvP, but one thing is clear: none of the bros here (well, maybe there is one: mannon ) enjoy playing it if not for the loot. That's a clear indication that something needs to be changed in PvP, because otherwise it is a great opportunity lost: the one thing that Destiny desperately missing is highly replayable content (because it is clear that Bungie can't produce non-highly-replayable but interesting content fast enough to keep the community from getting bored), and a great PvP could have easily made that up.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Feb 23, 2015 13:03:23 GMT -5
We can disagree on how to change Destiny PvP, but one thing is clear: none of the bros here (well, maybe there is one: mannon ) enjoy playing it if not for the loot. I enjoyed playing it with Mannon. So I guess you can throw me in there. I guess if I have an objective (playing with a bro, doing a bounty) then my PVP experience is alright. But when there's nothing to do other than being Gjalliespamfodder... nopenopenopenope That's a clear indication that something needs to be changed in PvP, because otherwise it is a great opportunity lost: the one thing that Destiny desperately missing is highly replayable content (because it is clear that Bungie can't produce non-highly-replayable but interesting content fast enough to keep the community from getting bored). I dunno... I know of plenty of people who enjoy the PVP and are doing it for fun, to play with friends, and to wait until HoW. Just because the powergamers from the beginning are bored of it, only represents a small minority of the population, imho.
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Post by iw5000 on Feb 23, 2015 13:08:11 GMT -5
No: PVP/IB is what it is and needs no changes in Destiny. (DISCLAIMER: I've really only played Destiny and COD:MW3, BO2, and Ghosts as my multiplayer experience... I don't consider being spawnOMATubed to death in MW2 to be much of a positive experience, so I don't count it very much) PVP in Destiny is very an anti-COD... a thing that I'm okay with. Because they did it right COD: you have to play the MP and completely ignore anything else. That's all there is... you can play Zombies and you can play the campaign if you want... but those are side dishes... the sprig of parsely and the orange slice. COD is MP and if you don't do it, it's like going to Paris for a week without going to the Eifel Tower, Notre Dame, Arc d' Triumph, etc etc. Or NYC and not see the Statue of Liberty. It's ridiculous to do so and you wasted your time and money and you should feel bad. In COD, you focus everything on MP: your layout, your guns, your perks, your kill streaks, your game mode, your everything. MP is everything. The Be-all-end-all... alpha and omega... if you don't like your MP experience in COD, then the entirety of your COD experience is ruined. It is... it cannot not be ruined... there are other things, but as I said, they are a waste of your time to do. You might get enjoyment out of them (ie: missing the Eiffel Tower to go see a cool small little art gallery) but in the overall, grand scheme of things, it pales in comparison. If your MP experience sucks in COD, there's nothing else of substance to save your gaming experience. This is why people jump to the assertion that the game sucks right away. Destiny: PVP is completely avoidable and it affects game play minimally. You can choose not to do PVP and your experience suffers... minimally to nothing. Bungie has done a great job for people like me for diversifying the experience to make almost 2 games in one. Guns, armour, abilities, classes... can be crap in PVE but not in PVP or vice versa. So if you don't like one, the other fills the experience for you. So if your MP experience sucks... you hate it with every fibre of your being, then you have something else to do. Nothing is ruined. There is plenty else to do. You can still seek great enjoyment within the game because it is not a 1 trick MP pony like COD has become. You can create another class with different skills that will diversify the game to give you a new outlook on things. Other than trying different weapon builds, COD can't give you that. 1. No one is saying the Destiny game is ruined by the existence of Crucible/IB. We are just commenting on it, as a stand alone game. 2. Comparing that stand along PvP game. CoD to Destiny. CoD is hardly a one trick pony. Even a game like BO2 a year or two ago had TONS of different ways to play, unique setups, a lot more than Destiny. And it did so without creating training wheels for players or silly game modes that ensured people who played a lot, (leve 32) got a nice advantage in getting kills) Even AW now, it's present game, while gun mechanics are pretty much a few OP guns, that's no different than Destiny. But even with that, AW has lots of different play styles and ways to play. I don't think anyone is personally 'bothered' by Crucible/IB...just commenting on how the game is. That's fair. The game isn't off limits, in terms of criticism.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Feb 23, 2015 13:34:00 GMT -5
We can disagree on how to change Destiny PvP, but one thing is clear: none of the bros here (well, maybe there is one: mannon ) enjoy playing it if not for the loot. That's a clear indication that something needs to be changed in PvP, because otherwise it is a great opportunity lost: the one thing that Destiny desperately missing is highly replayable content (because it is clear that Bungie can't produce non-highly-replayable but interesting content fast enough to keep the community from getting bored), and a great PvP could have easily made that up. I enjoy playing it, at least when connections are somewhat decent, and especially with a group. The problem is there is absolutely no incentive to do so outside of Iron Banner. That's been brought up many times. Whether you're looking for glimmer, gear, engrams, marks, bounty completions, materials, or anything else you can think of, PvE is a better place to do it. You get more of literally everything in PvE in less than half the time you'd get the same amount in PvP. It just doesn't make any sense to PvP when the rewards are so few and far between (and what few good rewards are given out, seemingly go to the lowest scoring players all the time). Due to that, I don't even consider PvP -- outside of Iron Banner -- until all of the following are completed across my 3 characters: Nightfall, Weekly, Daily, Crota's End, Vault of Glass, and PvE bounties. If somehow I get all that done and I still have time available, which is almost never, then I'll think about jumping into some PvP, and even then I usually decide not to. There just isn't any point.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Feb 23, 2015 13:37:52 GMT -5
question: would a CoD-esque clanwars help Destiny PVP?
I know it wouldn't be very cannon along the story lines, but if they could make it fit, would it help?
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Feb 23, 2015 13:38:45 GMT -5
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Post by iw5000 on Feb 23, 2015 13:49:56 GMT -5
Good lord, terribly unbalanced.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Feb 23, 2015 13:50:00 GMT -5
Here is my main point: If you need "significant incentive" to play PvP, then something is not right. If I choose to play other FPS games: CoD, Titanfall, Halo..., I don't need anything extra to keep me in it. I enjoy the game first, then it is nice to have something extra to play for, but not necessary. When I say "none of the bros here enjoy playing it if not for the loot", that's what I mean. Prove me wrong if you play Crucible as the main source of fun when you start Destiny , no incentive needed. Say you would rather play regular PvP for Crucible bounties than boring patrols for Vanguard bounties. So far I only know two people: mannon on this board, and our friend on the XONE side Sleezy318 I know that there are people out there who play regular Crucible, but if the FPS MP regulars like us don't, then things need to be changed significantly. The weapon tuning is a good first step. But not nearly enough.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Feb 23, 2015 14:09:59 GMT -5
I guess I'd counter that by saying I do enjoy Destiny's PvP, but I enjoy the PvE more -- I bought the game for PvE, not PvP, just like I previously bought CoD and Battlefield for multiplayer, not campaign. Throw in the fact that PvE actually rewards you for playing it, and that's it. Game over for PvP.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 23, 2015 14:36:25 GMT -5
I'm going to disagree about what it means that most people on this board don't do PvP. We're a small community, and that's a vast oversimplification. Plus just because a game or game mode doesn't appeal to someone or to a group of people that doesn't make it bad. Sometimes it's just different.
Personally I don't need the loot as an incentive to play PvP. The reason I focus more on Iron Banner than normal Crucible is partly because it's a limited time even, and I do want the items. But it's mainly because I have more fun in Iron Banner than normal Crucible. *shrug*
I do agree with most of your points from above, though.
1) Primary weapons need to be used primarily, special weapons need to be for special occasions; 2) Semi auto weapons need to feel OP over auto; 3) Supers should either be removed or re-designed to reward "smart" play; 4) Heavy need to be placed in the neutral zones; a) Visible skill rank (that goes up and down, not an experience based level that can only go up) and SBMM; b) DEDICATED SERVERS!!!
I don't entirely agree on 3. I don't want them removed. But I do feel there are some major issues. I'm about to the point that when I see a blade dancer coming at me I think I'm just going to start dancing, because nothing at all is going to do any good 99% of the time. I think that one bothers me the most, because there is no dodging it either. At least vs voidwalkers, gunslingers, and punchbros you can actually dodge that shit... it's not easy, but you have a chance. And nobody's afraid Sunsingers. ;3 (Sunsinger super can be really useful in a few situations, but is weird... It's not a quick killing kind of thing. You need it to last the full duration to really get much out of it, and thus it's easy to get shut down. On the other hand in the right circumstances a sunsinger ran rain grenades down on a CP jump in and melee any survivors and do so either by coming back from the grage or with a health shield...) Anyway...
I would like to keep Supers in there, just make them less common. And I'd like to see them have more of a direct counter... but I digress.
I also take some issue with fusion rifles. What exactly are you supposed to do vs one unless you have a shotgun to get in close for a 1HK? The only thing that seems to work for me is either dodging behind cover to make them waste shots and hope I get lucky, or grenade. When the charge time is about half of my TTK with full headshots and I can't let him hit me even once or I'm dead, and it has pretty decent range... I really don't know. Dispite that I have very bad luck with FR's myself. Prolly just lack of practice, because I kinda hate them. ;3 Hopefully special ammo tweaks will slightly mollify this.
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Post by iw5000 on Feb 23, 2015 15:04:08 GMT -5
But again, I think the primary reason why people have more 'fun' with IB, is that those are the people are who level 31 & 32....and IB then basically becomes an EPenis game. "LOOK AT ME BRUH, I AM GODLIKE" ...Yeah, who wouldn't find it fun, when 1/2 of the lobby needs 2x to 10x the bullets you do to kill. That's a fvckign fantastic game. Very challenging and fair. No wonder it's popular amongst thae high level player crowd.
Sorry, but it takes no skill to take down someone under the above circumstances. That's not good FPSer gaming. And it's most certainly not what I had in mind, when Bungie first starting putting out news about the IB way back when. And I am not saying that because I recently did it at level 22 to 29. I've played it at lv32 before. I'm saying this because I got to witness just how unbalanced and unfair IB is when one is underleveled. No skill douchebags killing people while playing shitty. It's dumb. What really is proven when a player is nerfed by 20 to 90%?
How should IB be? It should work the opposite way. A place where EVERYONE starts out with the same eight stock weapons to choose from. The only difference is what character you bring to the game. That's it. And the game mode? Control is fine, but you make it all about the 'W'. All bounties work under an objective basis. "Win 10 games". "Get 20 zones capped". "Get 50 Zone defend kills". "Get 50 Zone cap kills", "Win ten games by double the score". "Complete 25 games", "Win three games by triple the score", "Get a multi kill on a flag" Eight bounties right there. THOSE are what is needed. ALL the bounties are objective playing based.
Douchebags who want to lay back getting sniping kills, they'll be hurt. They'll lose more and get no bounties done. And what is the best thing about that, why it will hurt them? This. The icing on the cake. You make the rewards work like this. A race during the IB for everyone. The top 10% scorers for the week get their pick of five items (armor, guns, shaders, etc..). They get five coupons to redeem at the IB guy for whatever they want. They get the goodies. Top 25% people get three coupons. Top 50% get one coupon. Bottom 50%? Give them a shader. Fvck those people. Most of them were probably either sniping or playing off objectives for kills*
*reality is, watch every IB score card post match. The top kills people are almost ALWAYS the people who did the best job of NOT helping cap flags.
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Feb 23, 2015 16:20:18 GMT -5
Isn't there going to be a hardcore style playlist in the next update? No motion tracker, no Super, etc.
As the resident pussyscrub, I am fine with PvP in this game. It is different, so there is some novelty and fun. It isn't as engrossing as some of the old CoDs, but neither is this years' CoD, which is a biggeer train wreck. In fact, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have touched Destiny at all, if CoD hadn't been such a godawful letdown this year. Now, I've learned I like loot-based spaceman type games. I'm gonna go play some Mass Effect in the near future.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Feb 23, 2015 19:45:52 GMT -5
Two quick comments: 1) for mannon: I am not just using this community for sample size. I am also looking at all of the friends I accumulated through Halo/CoD/Titanfall, which were almost exclusively PvP minded players. I almost never see them playing Crucible (except for Sleezy ), for whatever reason there is. I am talking about people who used to spend 9+ months each year playing nothing but CoD, for example. 2) for hebb: fair point on you buying Destiny mainly to enjoy PvE more than PvP. But if you rather prefer boring PvE activities than crucible for bounty purpose, then it does indicate that PvP sucks to certain degree. Especially at this point when we have a content drought going on. Even when Nightfall is becoming dreadful, Crucible is still probably not high on your list if not for the IB loot. Again my main point: PvP has great potential to offer high replayability, right now in Destiny it is an opportunity lost, at least partially. What happens when people are tired of PvE content? They stop playing Destiny and move on to some other game, which is happening to more and more players on my friends list.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 24, 2015 3:03:02 GMT -5
Witty- I'm not arguing against the conclusion, merely coming to that conclusion based solely on the opinions of the people you know. I don't know how many friends you have, but unless it's thousands and drawn from a random sampling of gamers, I don't see that alone as enough to draw any real conclusions. That's not to say it can't be weighed as evidence along with your own opinions of the game, but that wasn't how it was presented. *shrug*
Also in your comment to Hebb you're revealing your own bias when you say if her prefers "boring" PvE activities than crucible... He didn't call PvE boring. I don't find PvE boring. If I prefer PvE to PvP does that mean the PvP sucks? No, it just means that I prefer one to the other. I prefer PvE to PvP in most games. I only make an exception for certain games that are really built around the PvP.
As for your last bit about Destiny PvP having great potential but the opportunity being wasted... I completely and entirely agree with you there. Destiny PvP could be so much more than it is! It has great combat mechanics. But there are a lot of weaknesses to it's PvP holding it back.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 24, 2015 3:33:42 GMT -5
I'm sorry, IW5000 I do not want to play your Iron Banner. The lower skilled players would get tired of their shaders and quit playing it. It would become a nice little show off arena for people who do nothing but PvP in Destiny, and it would not be fun for anyone else. You seem to think the only reason to enjoy Iron Banner is because, "hur hur my loot's better than yours". When I started playing Iron Banner I wasn't at the complete bottom, sure. But I was only about level 27 or 28 and my weapons were pretty weak. I had to use a blue auto rifle for pete's sake. You know what, it was still fun.
The reason I like Iron Banner more than Crucible isn't because all my gear is so much better than a whole bunch of other players out there. Hell even now I get killed by Vex Mythoclast and Suros Regime all the damn time and I don't have any of that. I'm still not at the top of the food chain when it comes to loot. But it brings people in that usually don't play vanilla Crucible. I enjoy it because it's popular and not just a high skill wankfest. Crucible can be fun sometimes too, but often it's just not fun at all. You can't get kills, you can't get points, you can't flip to the good side, you can't get the heavy ammo and survive more than 10 seconds. Sometimes I can do well, but a lot of the time I just can't, mainly because I don't have the time to keep my skills sharp. But also it's just not very rewarding. Destiny for better or worse is very reward driven and having shit rewards means Crucible is only fun when you're winning. At least in IB you hold on for that token and to complete some bounties, or whatever. It gives you a reason not to quit unwinnable games. Crucible on the other hand just makes me want to go play PvE most of the time.
The fact that the bounty space is shared with PvE bounties also hurts Crucible participation. I always have left over bounties. Tons of 'em. I can't just randomly decide to go hit Crucible without either dropping PvE bounties or simply not taking Crucible ones... but if I don't take Crucible bounties then I KNOW I'm getting shit rewards, so why play it? For Iron Banner I'll clear as many PvE bounties as I can then drop the rest and run nothing but PvP bounties for the week. Iron Banner works for me in ways that Crucible does not... and it's not just because I can go ham on some lowbies. If that were the case I could just lobby shop for lowbies, but I don't.
The way you say Iron Banner "should" work is NOT Iron Banner. That's not what it ever was or intended to be or claimed to be. I don't know why you think there's only one way to do an FPS. To be honest I would barely even characterize Destiny as an FPS. It's systems are more of a hybrid between FPS and action RPG. They have even borrowed some from MMORPG's. And nearly all MMORPG's feature PvP where your equipment and level very very much does matter. Why is that less valid for a game like Destiny? Yes there is a skill component to Destiny, but why does that mean it has to be the only component? Destiny was not designed for the esports scene or for the highest level of CS, Halo, and CoD players to rule it's every corridor. Destiny just is what it is.
Now that's not to say I don't think there should be a way of playing PvP that's a more level playing field. I'm all for it. That's what vanilla Crucible kinda sorta strives for, in fact. It would be great if Bungie did have some game modes that pushed that, and they could even have an event and loot attached to it. I still wouldn't play it because it wouldn't be any fun unless I lost my job and girlfriend and did nothing but Destiny all day, but yeah I think it should be there for those who would enjoy it... but it would not be Iron Banner. Calling it Iron Banner when it is the antithesis of what Iron Banner always has been since beta just makes no sense.
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Post by iw5000 on Feb 24, 2015 10:26:54 GMT -5
That's just how I would make it Mannon. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with my opinion.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 24, 2015 10:34:53 GMT -5
I don't really have a problem with it. I don't think I'd play it if it didn't offer much for the filthy casuals, but I do think it should exist. It just wouldn't be Iron Banner. For that matter I think there should be in game formal tournaments complete with spectating.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Feb 24, 2015 10:38:38 GMT -5
Could Destiny take IB and make it almost Clan wars esque, in the sense that you set up your clan/team, rank up in crucible, and compete against other teams, and then the top... 1000 teams (whatever) make it to the Iron Banner? Then Iron Banner is like an uber clan wars and the PUGSnSCRUBS who just want to PVP for fun, can still do Crucible?
Just an idea
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 24, 2015 10:45:34 GMT -5
I think that would be cool, but I think it probably should be a different event from IB. IB is about bringing your best equipment for an advantage and then grinding for loot while having some fun. It's not really a competition, it just sounds like one. I think Destiny could support two PvP events running in cycles. Iron Banner and the anti-Iron Banner that is all about skill and competition.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Feb 24, 2015 11:20:16 GMT -5
So.. crucible is bottom tier, play for fun. Those who want to do Destiny CWars, do IB to rank up their "clan" Then there's a new IB.... the Platinum Flag ( ??) for elite clan wars
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Post by TheHawkNY on Feb 24, 2015 11:32:04 GMT -5
So.. crucible is bottom tier, play for fun. Those who want to do Destiny CWars, do IB to rank up their "clan" Then there's a new IB.... the Platinum Flag ( ??) for elite clan wars Rather than come up with new reasons for players to feel the need to play Crucible, I'd love for them to spend the time working out ways for playing Crucible not to feel like torture and make it actually fun. Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to some changes that increase the variance in skill level. People talk about how COD has a low skill cap, but compared to Destiny, it's enormous. I never played Halo or any comparable games, started Destiny with the beta, and I'm no better at Crucible today than I was at the end of the beta.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Feb 24, 2015 11:35:35 GMT -5
So.. crucible is bottom tier, play for fun. Those who want to do Destiny CWars, do IB to rank up their "clan" Then there's a new IB.... the Platinum Flag ( ??) for elite clan wars Rather than come up with new reasons for players to feel the need to play Crucible, I'd love for them to spend the time working out ways for playing Crucible not to feel like torture and make it actually fun. Personally, I wouldn't be opposed to some changes that increase the variance in skill level. People talk about how COD has a low skill cap, but compared to Destiny, it's enormous. I never played Halo or any comparable games, started Destiny with the beta, and I'm no better at Crucible today than I was at the end of the beta. I guess... But make Crucible a training ground. Wanna do more, play more, whatever... get 5 other friends and compete in the Iron Banner. Base IB on W/L % or something and you need to win..., I dunno... 60% of your games... make Iron Banner actually elite where you have to use strategy. So Crucible: Pugs/scrubs/dickarounds/PUGTeams... those who take it seriously and make a team, and win, go to IB
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Feb 24, 2015 13:25:48 GMT -5
More strategy in IB would be nice. As is it's mostly just try to get the good spawn side control point and try to hold B and get/use heavy ammo better than the other team. There's a bit more you could do with a coordinated team, but I'm always solo and it seems like most people in IB are solo. I'm not sure how to improve it drastically without totally changing it, though. Mostly it needs small tweaks that aren't IB specific as far as strategy is concerned. Maps need balancing. They are reducing special ammo a tad, though I'm not sure it's enough to counter people simply going primary on their specials.
I see it suggested to move heavy ammo to a neutral location. I don't think I'm on board with that. I don't think you could have more than 1 actually neutral location unless you also stuck some on B, but then it's not neutral that way either because you'd just have the team on B pickup theirs at B and the other team go for the more neutral one. If anything it would favor the B defenders because they'd have a guaranteed pickup at B, and the other would be neutral and probably not that hard to grab it too, or at least harass the other team since they know exactly where they are going. The way it is now the heavy ammo is supposed to pull teams off the capture points to pick it up. Each spawn side has it's own drop. The main issue is not each drop is equally well placed, and that should be addressed. Blind watch has the C side heavy ammo right smack between C and B and actually conveniently located to both while A has both their CP and Heavy ammo out in the boonies. I don't know if you could balance that map just by moving things, the architecture it self is so off balance. Lots of other examples. Personally, I think the distance of the Heavy ammo from B is the most important factor, because the closer side can either setup a defense at B and be waiting or assault the other team at B without them having any yet. That's also an issue on Rusted Lands since A side Heavy Ammo is behind the A side spawn. On the other hand A has better proximity to B in general, but I wouldn't say the two cancel out.
Some of this can be balanced via the spawn points themselves. Not the spawn side capture points, the actual spawns. We tend to think of them as linked, but they are actually only linked geographically. There is no spawn logic tied to which CP's you control, it's decided by player positions. Your team tends to hold the CP on the side they are spawning on, not the other way around. To a some extent it's those spawns that need to be equally spaced with relation to B and the heavy ammo. All in all it's pretty difficult to totally balance maps like these without making them symmetrical.
So... why not have some symmetrical maps? Twilight Gap is probably the most symmetrical. How about some more? Especially if they put in a more skill based, competitive game mode, I think there should be some symmetrical maps. Just a couple.
And definitely tone down super charge rates from kills and orbs ect... I don't want them gone, but getting hit with a super ever 20 seconds gets old.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Feb 24, 2015 14:34:35 GMT -5
When I say "boring" PvE activities, I am referring to the ones that are truly boring, including:
1) patrols for bounties; 2) farming kills for bounties; etc.
I don't think that any players would do these if not for getting the bounty XPs. (Not to mention that we are even getting increasingly tired of the supposedly non-boring, interesting PvE content like Nightfall and even Raid).
However, I am troubled by the following fact:
People who used to play the heck out of PvP that don't give any rewards, would rather play the above activities to get bounties done than play Crucible to get Crucible bounties done. That's how unattractive Destiny PvP can be.
My sample size is definitely small. However, they are typical PvP loving players. For them to not even touch Crucible any time I am seeing them online, you have to admit that there are something wrong. Not just a little wrong, but a lot wrong.
For players who play this game just for PvE, I don't disagree that it's totally fine that the Crucible is not attractive to them. The question then is: whether Destiny can be successful without Crucible, or the current one that is barely bearable for loot purpose (so one week per month for IB is OK). Again my main point: if that is what Bungie wants to settle on, that's OK for us as players because we can always play other games to get our PvP "fix". I just can't help but point out the following:
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