qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 20, 2015 14:11:51 GMT -5
I really don't agree, appart from a 3rd gjallor, I am more pleased with a random legendary with possibly good perks than an exotic.
You can't blame coding for having (almost) every weapon in the game. What would you like get out of a nightfall then? Other than a gjallor?
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 20, 2015 15:31:16 GMT -5
I really don't agree, appart from a 3rd gjallor, I am more pleased with a random legendary with possibly good perks than an exotic. You can't blame coding for having (almost) every weapon in the game. What would you like get out of a nightfall then? Other than a gjallor? It's beyond stupid that something that I could buy from a Tower Vendor, (at least comparable), is the SOLE reward I get for trudging through a NF solo. Think how stupid that is. It goes to show the idiocy over there at Bungie. So what would I like? Something more than a crapazz legendary weapon that I could get from a Tower vendor? There's a start. If you need a baseline, start with those couple of missions available. Look, and see if you can spot what is wrong with this picture.... ROc Strike (Lv 26) - Some Engrams (occasional legendary), 6 Vanguard Marks Daily Strike (Lv 30) - 16 materials, Engrams, Vanguard Marks, Vanguard Rep, Ascendent Materials Weekly Strike (Lv 30) - 9 strange coins, Engrams, Vanguard Marks, Vanguard Rep Nightfall solo (Lv 30).....crappy legendary scout rifle Whoever coded that, to allow that to happen, is a retard.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 20, 2015 16:45:14 GMT -5
To be fair, NF isn't designed as a solo activity. If players choose to run it solo then that's on them. NF loot is designed to be a bit of a lottery or more like a slot machine. You can get lucky or really unlucky. You can, (as I have) also get really unlucky on a raid. But I still feel like the minimums are a bit low for the difficulty.
On the other hand, what is a legendary weapon worth? I would say the chance for a random roll on a legendary instead of just what the vendor sells is worth something, hence why people spend motes on IB reforging. But even not counting that weapons cost a decent number of marks and a commendation. Granted you probably are swimming in those, but that doesn't change the fact that earning enough for a weapon takes an investment. In fact I would say it takes more of a time investment to purchase a vanguard item than your 34 minute NF.
Add on top of that the fact that there are very few Vanguard or even Faction weapons really worth buying and a randomly rolled legendary has even more potential value.
I think the main issue here is that it doesn't have any value to you, specifically... because you already have nearly every item in the game you could possibly want other than the uberhorn. Personally if I ran a NF and got a new legendary scout rifle... I'd be okay with that. It's more than I'd get from a weekly or grinding out 10 bounties. Plus I'm not sure I really want or need more exotics right now. The fact that I can only use one at a time means I can only upgrade one at a time as well, and that's a major pain in my arse. Legendaries I can actually upgrade and use. I have like 5 exotics just wasting space because I can't upgrade them.
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wings
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Post by wings on Apr 20, 2015 16:57:13 GMT -5
I really don't agree, appart from a 3rd gjallor, I am more pleased with a random legendary with possibly good perks than an exotic. You can't blame coding for having (almost) every weapon in the game. What would you like get out of a nightfall then? Other than a gjallor? It's quite easy to make a loot table where you can have legendary weapons with only specific upgrades from dropping. Gearbox did this, and similar issues, with Borderlands 2.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 21, 2015 2:40:20 GMT -5
I really don't agree, appart from a 3rd gjallor, I am more pleased with a random legendary with possibly good perks than an exotic. You can't blame coding for having (almost) every weapon in the game. What would you like get out of a nightfall then? Other than a gjallor? It's beyond stupid that something that I could buy from a Tower Vendor, (at least comparable), is the SOLE reward I get for trudging through a NF solo. Think how stupid that is. It goes to show the idiocy over there at Bungie. So what would I like? Something more than a crapazz legendary weapon that I could get from a Tower vendor? There's a start. If you need a baseline, start with those couple of missions available. Look, and see if you can spot what is wrong with this picture.... ROc Strike (Lv 26) - Some Engrams (occasional legendary), 6 Vanguard Marks Daily Strike (Lv 30) - 16 materials, Engrams, Vanguard Marks, Vanguard Rep, Ascendent Materials Weekly Strike (Lv 30) - 9 strange coins, Engrams, Vanguard Marks, Vanguard Rep Nightfall solo (Lv 30).....crappy legendary scout rifle Whoever coded that, to allow that to happen, is a retard. Well to be fair, it is simply not true what you are saying. Nightfall gives you a random reward, 20% xp/rep increase, 25 vanguard marks and 500 reputation! So I don't see the fuzz with that little list you provided. Clearly the best in the list, even though it is often easier than a weekly. Other than that, you still didn't answer the question, what would you like to get? There is nothing awesome left to earn. Random purple guns are still the best thing to get from nightfalls for me! I love comparing and matching them. It is not even close to a vanguard weapon. I have all vendor weapon I would like to have, but that still leaves me with: - no void sniper, or for that matter, any decent void weapon - no arc/void LMG with field scout/surplus - no high damage scout rifle with firefly (I have a badger with firefly from a nightfall, it is way better than the rapier) - no tracking/proximity rocket launcher - no special weapon with surplus (this works for your heavy too!) - no high impact fusion with accelerated coils - no high impact shotgun (other than new monarchy's arc, with mediocre perks) (and no, I don't have a fellwinters) - and I can continue with this list for a while Good legendary gear is better than exotics at this point. It is why the fatebringer was so popular. If it would have been an exotic, it would be used way less. So let me ask again, what would you like to have gotten out of it? For those 32 minutes? (that is like two crucible games / ROC strikes...)
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 21, 2015 2:47:40 GMT -5
I really don't agree, appart from a 3rd gjallor, I am more pleased with a random legendary with possibly good perks than an exotic. You can't blame coding for having (almost) every weapon in the game. What would you like get out of a nightfall then? Other than a gjallor? It's quite easy to make a loot table where you can have legendary weapons with only specific upgrades from dropping. Gearbox did this, and similar issues, with Borderlands 2. It could have been a good solution, but personally I prefer it the way it is. Raid weapons are already locked and it is clearly hit or miss with the perks. As long as they are random, I at least have a chance to get what I want. (some ppl prefer tracking, but I prefer proximity personally, just an example) Getting random weapons is part of the fun for me. I got a vanquisher with persistance, field scout and something else good, and I was stoked! Used it way more than the Suros. (untill the nerf hit...) But I do see your point, it could have been done that way, and some players might prefer it, but I prefer it to be random.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 21, 2015 7:22:58 GMT -5
Yes, I forgot to mention the 25%XP boost. That is a nice reward, I should have mentioned it. I guess to me personally, it means nothing though. I could care less so over time, I have forgotten about it.
As far as what would I like? The lottery wheel shouldn't include prizes that one can already get from ROC strikes and other lessor tasks. For example. I can get a purple engram from a ROC strike, which has (many times) given me legendary weapons or armor. So if that's a prize in a ROC strike, why in God's name is the same prize being dropped in a Nightfall strike?
You can only do one NF a week. Next to the Raid finish section, this is the highest difficulty achievement of the Destiny week.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 21, 2015 7:38:48 GMT -5
And again, what would you like to get then? A pokemon?
The chance of legendary weapon engrams in ROC strikes is ~ 1/44. So that is really no comparison.
You do get the best rewards out of the list you provided (more reputation, more marks), so I really don't see your point.
Following your logic here:
You can in theory get a Gjallorhorn from ROC strikes, which is (one of) the best rewards in the game. So nightfall should give something better than gjallorhorn?
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wings
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Post by wings on Apr 21, 2015 10:37:36 GMT -5
It's quite easy to make a loot table where you can have legendary weapons with only specific upgrades from dropping. Gearbox did this, and similar issues, with Borderlands 2. It could have been a good solution, but personally I prefer it the way it is. Raid weapons are already locked and it is clearly hit or miss with the perks. As long as they are random, I at least have a chance to get what I want. (some ppl prefer tracking, but I prefer proximity personally, just an example) Getting random weapons is part of the fun for me. I got a vanquisher with persistance, field scout and something else good, and I was stoked! Used it way more than the Suros. (untill the nerf hit...) But I do see your point, it could have been done that way, and some players might prefer it, but I prefer it to be random. I think iw5000 is considering bottom tier upgrades on weapons and there's less subjectivity on which upgrades those are, e.g. Mulligan. Considering the amount of upgrades there are, you could still weed out the bad ones and still have the fun of getting a stellar roll on your weapon because it's still not a given. Then that leaves the niche of gear from Iron Banner, the Raids, and Trials of Osiris intact. That said, if the upgrades are that bad then that shows there was no quality control into testing how these work, and if you have enough bad perks on a legendary, you may have a blue weapon that is better besides attack value. It sounds like you have no issue with RNG but other people tend to have limits, which is why I always thought it was a pity that there are only 5 weapons that can be truly earned outside of Iron Banner. All of the others involve some degrees of RNG in acquiring them and they do not take into performance. This could help alleviate some issues with RNG and ideal stat rolls are always going to be sought after considering how the game plays, whether it's making enemies less of a bullet sponge in Nightfalls or becoming a more productive teammate in PvP. And then this is compounded by the absence of stock changes of the gear sold by the Crucible factions and the two Quartermasters, the gunsmith not actually smithing guns, upcoming level cap increases, and vault space limitations.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 21, 2015 12:07:42 GMT -5
I agree that that might be the actual problem. Some perks are just not good enough compared to others.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 21, 2015 13:44:18 GMT -5
And again, what would you like to get then? A pokemon? The chance of legendary weapon engrams in ROC strikes is ~ 1/44. So that is really no comparison. You do get the best rewards out of the list you provided (more reputation, more marks), so I really don't see your point. Following your logic here: You can in theory get a Gjallorhorn from ROC strikes, which is (one of) the best rewards in the game. So nightfall should give something better than gjallorhorn? Wasn't my logic at all. Maybe you should try reading what I said closer. Remove your Bungie goggles.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 21, 2015 14:38:25 GMT -5
As far as what would I like? The lottery wheel shouldn't include prizes that one can already get from ROC strikes and other lessor tasks. For example. I can get a purple engram from a ROC strike, which has (many times) given me legendary weapons or armor. So if that's a prize in a ROC strike, why in God's name is the same prize being dropped in a Nightfall strike? Gjallorhorn is also something you can get from a ROC strike, therefore one could just replace "purple engram" above with "Gjallorhorn" and repost your statement... your logic... as reason to not include Gjallorhorn in NF rewards... How is that not following your logic? I'm not beating up on you. I mostly agree that NF rewards are a bit weak for the difficulty. I feel like the rewards are only really good for people who struggle with the difficulty to the point of having to cheese in ways that are less fun to play most of the time in order to complete it. But by the time a player can strait up manmode the NF most of the rewards are kinda pointless... However, your logic above, could be applied to any and all things you can obtain from ROC strikes as you stated it. This is not likely what you meant to suggest. I think that Qupie merely wants you to define explicitly what you think the rewards and loot table should be instead of what it currently is. I can't really fault him for thinking your statements thus far are a bit vauge on that front. It mostly sounds like just you complaining that you got a purple rifle as well as trashing programmers for not having the foresite to keep the NF rewards relevant for a player that already has pretty much every exotic weapon but Gjallorhorn. Honestly, what besides Gjallorhorn would not disappoint you? Also just because someone isn't in love with your opinions doesn't mean they're wearing Bungie goggles as you put it. There are plenty of things I'm willing to criticize about Destiny. Hell I'm not even playing it right now, but that doesn't mean I have to take your side either. It's not a with us or against us thing. Personally what I would like to see is the lower end tightened up so you won't wind up with just a few coins or just a few shards, or maybe just one purple engram... I'd be more specific, but I'd have to look at it closer to decide where I think the lower limit should be for the activity. Even at 1 purple engram that's still a lot better than a lot of activities and there's the XP and rep rewards to consider.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 21, 2015 15:24:00 GMT -5
As far as what would I like? The lottery wheel shouldn't include prizes that one can already get from ROC strikes and other lessor tasks. For example. I can get a purple engram from a ROC strike, which has (many times) given me legendary weapons or armor. So if that's a prize in a ROC strike, why in God's name is the same prize being dropped in a Nightfall strike? Gjallorhorn is also something you can get from a ROC strike, therefore one could just replace "purple engram" above with "Gjallorhorn" and repost your statement... your logic... as reason to not include Gjallorhorn in NF rewards... How is that not following your logic? I'm not beating up on you. I mostly agree that NF rewards are a bit weak for the difficulty. I feel like the rewards are only really good for people who struggle with the difficulty to the point of having to cheese in ways that are less fun to play most of the time in order to complete it. But by the time a player can strait up manmode the NF most of the rewards are kinda pointless... However, your logic above, could be applied to any and all things you can obtain from ROC strikes as you stated it. This is not likely what you meant to suggest. I think that Qupie merely wants you to define explicitly what you think the rewards and loot table should be instead of what it currently is. I can't really fault him for thinking your statements thus far are a bit vauge on that front. It mostly sounds like just you complaining that you got a purple rifle as well as trashing programmers for not having the foresite to keep the NF rewards relevant for a player that already has pretty much every exotic weapon but Gjallorhorn. Honestly, what besides Gjallorhorn would not disappoint you? Also just because someone isn't in love with your opinions doesn't mean they're wearing Bungie goggles as you put it. There are plenty of things I'm willing to criticize about Destiny. Hell I'm not even playing it right now, but that doesn't mean I have to take your side either. It's not a with us or against us thing. Personally what I would like to see is the lower end tightened up so you won't wind up with just a few coins or just a few shards, or maybe just one purple engram... I'd be more specific, but I'd have to look at it closer to decide where I think the lower limit should be for the activity. Even at 1 purple engram that's still a lot better than a lot of activities and there's the XP and rep rewards to consider. 1. Can we please stop the " Gjallorhorn can drop from a Roc strike" comments. I've never seen it. None of the 75 plus people i know who have played this game have ever seen it. And i have never seen it happen online in a youtube video. I suppose it has? You are claiming it, so i suppose maybe there's someone who got one... but it's so far removed in terms of statistical probabilities that it's not even worth mentioning as a possibility of a reward. The NF? I do know people who have gotten GJallorhorns with it, so it's apples and oranges comparing the two. 2. If my statements are vague...it's only because i have zero desire to go chart out some detailed chart outlining every detail of change i think is needed, only then to be horrifically nitpicked to death in some ever escalating nerd attack. So yeah, that. I don't really care enough to detail out changes. I just know the present lottery wheel tables feel a bit screwed up. That's the jist of my point. 3. As far as bashing the programers, yes.. i am. I feel they have done a very shoddy job of designing this loot system. From royally screwing up the VoG loot tables, to overcompensating the other way completely with Crota, it's been a constant game of playing catch up. And that's just the loot tables. Here's the thing, to answer your one question. I do have everything but the Gjallorhorn. But i honestly wouldn't be pissed at all if i knew when i did something, there truly was a legitimate random chance of getting the Gjallorhorn. Like a straight up 1/50 chance playing the NF, or some disclosed odds. But i don't trust Bungie. Their 'random' isn't truly random. From what i have gathered, it's just code for manipulating people into playing more, to cover up their design flaws. Which is why i give them sh1t. I feel like they are constantly playing games with that stuff, to keep things like the Gjallorhorn out of people's hands, so as not to allow even more people to wreck their precious Crota raids (which is embarrassing them every day, with the number of solo finishers)
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 21, 2015 17:26:33 GMT -5
I'm not surprised you don't know anyone who has gotten Gjallorhorn from a Roc strike. Exotic weapons are FAR more common in NF. Some quick searching shows people getting exotics from NF around 18% or 25% depending on whose data you look at. Granted it's not enough samples, and a lot of those are likely old with possibly old loot tables, blah blah. For a ballpark let's call it 20%. That's gotta be divided of course by how many different items you could get to even get down to the odds of actually getting Gjallorhorn assuming the odds are flat... which we don't really know about. But then you look at the odds of getting an exotic weapon from a strike and it's something like 1% or 2%. That makes Gjallorhorn from strikes 10 to 20 times more rare at least. And that's just throwing some BS ballpark numbers out there that I got off Reddit in 5 minutes. In short, no we can't stop with the "Gjallorhorn can drop from a Roc Strike" thing just because you and nobody you know has seen it. That's not a statistically significant sample. Granted, I'm not claiming that it can drop from a Roc strike. I haven't researched it. Qupie clearly asserted that it could and that the fact threw a kink in your logic. You did not assert that it could not drop in a Roc strike and simlpy told him he was wrong and misread you. Personally I think his logic was flawless. I guess you were both simply coming at the logic with different assumptions. At least now we have gotten at those assumptions.
If you don't want to get specific that's fine. I thought it a fair question though, especially if you're contending that the current system is flawed... which I at least partially agree with.
I don't care to converse about bashing the programmers. For that matter the loot tables aren't even a programming issue, it's a design issue. I'm sure the loot tables are setup simply enough that the designers can access them directly without having to bother a programmer. This isn't a matter of stupidity or laziness. It is deliberately designed to be exactly the way it is and you don't like it... If I bashed everyone who made a directing or cinematography choice I didn't like I would have to believe that 90% of the directors, producers, and so forth making movies are completely inept at their jobs. You're welcome to not like it, and to express your opinion about it, but do you have to be so vitrolic about doing so? It's a way to blow off steam so if it makes you feel better then go ahead I guess... Personally I don't think insulting people we don't know just because they work for a company that made a product we have some problems with is just kind of ugly.
As for your answer I'm afraid all I can do is sympathize. You have zero faith in Bungie. Therefore nothing they could do will ever make you feel like you know your odds of getting Gjallorhorn. The only thing that would satisfy you is if they dropped RNG entirely and setup a specific series of goals where you could 100% guarantee you'll get it at completion, because even if they came right out and posted odds you wouldn't believe them. But Bungie probably isn't going to do that. For better or worse RNG plays a large roll in loot drops in this game, (and well... most games with loot drops.) So it's a bit of an impasse.
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wings
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Post by wings on Apr 22, 2015 5:32:38 GMT -5
You could look at how often people get an exotic from a Roc strike and then note exactly which exotics they are. The only exotic I got from a Roc strike was The Last Word although that was from a purple engram. It's possible that the odds are weighted by a particular weapon but I have not seen any proof of that. I find it a bit 'odd' that the Gjallarhorn is so elusive that I could have earned a dozen Thorns by nowe but then last week I saw the Praetorian Foil drop.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 22, 2015 7:41:34 GMT -5
If you don't want to get specific that's fine. I thought it a fair question though, especially if you're contending that the current system is flawed... which I at least partially agree with. I don't think it's fair to ask me to come up with my own design. I don't have that time. No one on here does. One is allowed to have a differing opinion, feel something isn't right, WITHOUT having to come up with their own fully worked out opposing plan. I've seen that analogy be used before, and I don't feel it applies here. You can't compare 'art' to video games. 'Art' is an expression or application of human creative skill and imagination. Found in stuff like paintings, music and movies. It is something that is generally viewed, NOT interacted with. So everyone's going to have an opinion but that's all it can ever be. My opinion of a painting is just that, and never more. Bungie's Destiny isn't 'art'. Yes, it does have art elements to it (music score, level art, etc..) but it's a video GAME. Interaction. Made to work with actions and reactions between the game and players. So with that, it can be subjected to more factual based criticisms that are a step above opinion. For example. Giving Bungie sh1t for designing a raid that within a week was able to get soloed. That's a legitimate factual complaint, that has no counter to it. Raids should NOT be conquered that easily by one person. And in days? Mistake on Bungie's part. Maybe it's not stupidity or laziness on that particular point. Ok. Then what is it? I suppose I could be nicer. But from my end, I feel many of the higher ups at Bungie aren't working for the players anymore. My frustration (gaming frustration, not life frustrating...please understand that) is that the Bungie developers drop this Crota raid on us that essentially boils down into a solo raid. But then play politics and games with the drop rate of the Gajllorhorn, the ONE weapon that makes the raid much more workable when playing solo. Sorry if that offends you, but that is LAZINESS on their part. You won't fix the raid (probably because they can't), so they instead screw over the remaining players who don't have the Gjallorhorn, making it harder for them to get....to 'save' their player raid population end stats. Bungie doesn't want xx% of the player base getting it done. So they find other ways (drop rates) to stop it. Is that tin foil on my part? Maybe. But when I see players who get their 3rd, 4th, even 5th Gjallorhorn drop, while people like me, PostMortem, countless others...go a ridiculous amount of hours on this game and never get a sniff of one, ...it paints a bad picture on Bungie.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 22, 2015 9:04:41 GMT -5
Gjallorhorn is also something you can get from a ROC strike, therefore one could just replace "purple engram" above with "Gjallorhorn" and repost your statement... your logic... as reason to not include Gjallorhorn in NF rewards... How is that not following your logic? I'm not beating up on you. I mostly agree that NF rewards are a bit weak for the difficulty. I feel like the rewards are only really good for people who struggle with the difficulty to the point of having to cheese in ways that are less fun to play most of the time in order to complete it. But by the time a player can strait up manmode the NF most of the rewards are kinda pointless... However, your logic above, could be applied to any and all things you can obtain from ROC strikes as you stated it. This is not likely what you meant to suggest. I think that Qupie merely wants you to define explicitly what you think the rewards and loot table should be instead of what it currently is. I can't really fault him for thinking your statements thus far are a bit vauge on that front. It mostly sounds like just you complaining that you got a purple rifle as well as trashing programmers for not having the foresite to keep the NF rewards relevant for a player that already has pretty much every exotic weapon but Gjallorhorn. Honestly, what besides Gjallorhorn would not disappoint you? Also just because someone isn't in love with your opinions doesn't mean they're wearing Bungie goggles as you put it. There are plenty of things I'm willing to criticize about Destiny. Hell I'm not even playing it right now, but that doesn't mean I have to take your side either. It's not a with us or against us thing. Personally what I would like to see is the lower end tightened up so you won't wind up with just a few coins or just a few shards, or maybe just one purple engram... I'd be more specific, but I'd have to look at it closer to decide where I think the lower limit should be for the activity. Even at 1 purple engram that's still a lot better than a lot of activities and there's the XP and rep rewards to consider. 1. Can we please stop the " Gjallorhorn can drop from a Roc strike" comments. I've never seen it. None of the 75 plus people i know who have played this game have ever seen it. And i have never seen it happen online in a youtube video. I suppose it has? You are claiming it, so i suppose maybe there's someone who got one... but it's so far removed in terms of statistical probabilities that it's not even worth mentioning as a possibility of a reward. The NF? I do know people who have gotten GJallorhorns with it, so it's apples and oranges comparing the two. The fact that you didn't see it, doesn't really prove anything. But if you really want to be nitpicking on what is possible and probable, I will tell you this: you actually CAN'T earn legendary weapons out of ROC strikes, you can only get legendary engrams or exotic weapons. (http://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/2svx0d/my_roommate_and_i_played_200_roc_strikes_here_are/) So your argument about getting the same reward as ROC strikes is completely out of the window. As you can't even earn a direct legendary weapon from a ROC strike. All I am asking is what you actually would like to get, because you seem to be looking for something that doesn't exist. And ass you refuse to answer it, it is clear you are just trying to string some circumstantial and false evidence together. I have been reading on reddit the last couple of months, and more than once there were topics on how ppl were happier with a decent legendary gun compared to an exotic. So the only reason I see why your opinion is your opinion is because you feel cheated for not getting a Gjallorhorn. Lady luck is a bitch, deal with it. [/u] I agree with you there, VOG armour was too rare, crota's armour to easy. And I also agree that some sort of other system could possibly be better. Doesn't mean something better is easy to make. RNG is a very very common mechanic, and in introduces big ups and downs because of the tension introduced the "lottery" mechanic. Winning a lottery makes ppl happy, losing it makes ppl sad. It is what it is. And I like it. Okay, so you think there is no chance for a Gjallorhorn to drop? Or what? I can't really follow this part. You think Bungie is keeping you from getting a Gjallarhorn? As in, this account is not getting the same chances as everybody else, because we don't like him? Or because you almost solo'd our lovely Crota? What is it you try to imply here? I will tell you this, every time you play a NF (or any other part of the game where you can earn an exotic) there truly is a legitimate random chance of getting the Gjallorhorn. Is it rare? yes it is. But in my own (limited) experience, it is less rare compared to a Hawkmoon or monte carlo (only have gotten those 1 time each). Lets do some statistics: There is 17 exotics you can earn in random drops. The chance of getting an exotic out of an possibly exotic chance like nightfall or Ir Yut is about? 1/6? (on average, Atheon or Ir yut gives one exotic per full fireteam, but that is just an rough estimation. Lets call these events PECE (possible exotic chance events)) This seems to be in line with the statistics found for nightfalls (~1/6). So I am going to use that number in this calculation. I know it is not an exact number, and I don't have any proof of it. I am just doing this calculation to make a point of estimation. That means that for every exotic weapon, there is a 1/17*1/6=1/102 chance to get it in a PECE. Destiny has been out 32 weeks now. There is a maximum of 5 PECE (NF, VoG chest, Atheon Hard, Ir Yut, Crota Hard) per character per week after DLC hit, so 15 per account. Pre DLC it was 3. I think it is reasonable to state hard core players did about 6 per week on average. That means 192 PECE. Seeing this number, is it so weird you didn't get a Gjallorhorn yet? I know it is allot of guesing, but I wanted to get to some numbers ppl can understand. A one in 100 chance not happening for 200 or even 300 rolls is not that strange. Period. Now lets calculate a little further. Chances of NOT getting a Gjallorhorn is 101/102. The probability of still not getting it after 192 PECE is (101/102)^224=0.151. That means one out of every 6.6 players (who played 192 PECE) will still not have Gjallor after all that time. The probability of still not getting it after 250 PECE is 0.085. Which means that one out of every 11.7 players (who played 250 PECE) will still not have Gjallor after all this time. Even though they played 250 PECE!!!! Hell, even if you did NF, VOG and Crota every time you could, the chances of NOT having a Gjallorhorn is pretty big. Nightfall has been out 31 weeks VoG has been out 30? weeks Crota normal has been out 17 weeks Crota hard has been out 13 weeks That gives 31 + 30 + 30 + 17 + 13 = 121 chances per character (NF + VOG chest + VOG hardmode Atheon + Crota chest/Ir Yut + Crota hard). Which translates to 363 chances if you COMPLETED ALL THESE events EVERYTIME you could. Not getting Gjallorhorn after 363 rolls is still 0.0279. That is 1 in 35. So for every 35 guardians who has completed ALL of these moments, still 1 would have no Gjallorhorn. Now, to go even further, I looked up your raid completions. On your main character, you completed VoG normal 8 times, hard 4 times. You completed Crota normal 10 times, hard 3 times. I know you deleted your older warlocks, so lets just assume you did it this much with all your characters. AND lets assume you did EVERY nightfall possible up until now. I get to (8 + 4 + 10 + 3) * 3 + 31 * 3 = 168. I am pretty certain that is not an underestimation, as I know for a fact you didn't have three characters the first week, and you also skipped some nightfalls. The chance to NOT get a Gjallorhorn out of PECE for your (overestimation) is: (101/102)^168 = 0.191. Which means that out of five players who played as much as you, one will not have a Gjallorhorn. Like I said, lady luck, is a total bitch. Out of my group of some very hard core players, there is a guy who didn't get it yet either, who played way way more than you did. Which is perfectly possible reading the above statistics. There is also a guy who never had a second character, and doesn't even have half of the exotics in the game, but he already has two Gjallarhorns.... Random will be random. And yes, again, I know these are estimations. But I don't give a shit. It is to make a point of estimation. Even a 9/10 chance doesn't happen one out of ten times! This is something some ppl don't seem to understand.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 22, 2015 9:24:17 GMT -5
Even if games are not art, (which is a whole other discussion and I disagree with you completely, because movies have just as much BS non art stuff as games and "Art" has had dynamic and interactive art pieces created and shown by artists for decades so I don't see that argument working either... but let's not have that arguement here... or at all... or at least not in the Destiny board) but even if games are not art I don't see how that changes anything. You can criticize movies and art based on technical aspects as well. You can clearly describe poor technique, continuity errors, special effects errors, editing errors, ect, ect... Some things have a stronger amount of opinion vs objectivity to the critique, but all things can be critiqued.
My issue is with the jump from, "I don't like this" to "the person that made this is Hitler". </hyperbole> Okay, so you're frustrated... I'm tired of your frustration. I sympathize with it up to the point that you start being a bit "mean" and then it gets to me. I'm sure Bungie as a whole deserves much criticism for their decisions. But you ascribe a lot to their employees, sometimes on an almost personal level. I find that unfair to them. They are just regular people. They make mistakes, get forced to work under difficult conditions, and shit happens. Blaming laziness and stupidity for everything is usually just a lack of imagination. Complex projects suffer from many varied and difficult issues. Trying to build anything complex with a team of human beings to do it and a limited amount of time and money pretty much always has problems. The answer is not always that someone is a retard... in fact it rarely is. It's more complicated than that. It's just people. Nearly every business operates somewhat dysfunctional and has massive issues because we human beings are all retarded in various ways. We're a bunch of stupid apes that think we're smarter than we are. Sometimes working together lets us do incredibly ambitious things, and sometimes all our little errors and flaws multiply into massive issues. I dunno... I just don't see this as black and white. Personally I think the problems with Destiny come from the top.
I think the game proved more ambitious than their release schedule allowed and they had to redesign. They did a lot of polishing after, but it still shows. I do not think that the individual programmers or even designers are to blame for any of Destiny's problems. I think it's the entire development process that went a bit off the rails at some point and while they did manhandle it back on track the game definitely lost something for it.
Yeah I also don't buy into the conspiracy stuff. Gjallorhorn still could have reduced drop rates in some way. I wouldn't be that surprised, given it is clearly the top OP weapon in the game. But then you'd expect it to be rare. I don't see any need for Bungie to be fiddling with anything to keep it this rare, just setup drop rates to be whatever and leave it be. It's not like they are going to manually hand them out to specific players they want to have it and deny other players. So some players don't get it and others get 5... welp that just sounds like natural RNG to me. People expect randomness to be flat and featureless... it isn't. For example pi is an irrational number, it's infinite series of decimals is basically random, with no discernible pattern. Yet there are numerous examples of long strings of repeated digits. But that's actually what you would expect from randomness. That's why people are so bad at randomization. We overcompensate. We try to remove all detectable patterns when true randomness would create some patterns just by chance. Anyway, I just don't see anything there to suggest Bungie is manipulating the game in some way other than either appropriate or as they have stated.
I agree that CE shouldn't have been soloable, or at least not as easily so. Even VoG has been soloed now, but I think that is more an achievement of the players rather than a mistake on Bungie's part. CE is more on Bungie. But I can also understand them not wanting to completely overhaul CE. It's a different raid from VoG, that was intentional, and I can kind of live with it being what it is I think. I dunno. Still haven't played it so I can't comment on it too much. I hope Bungie learns from it and makes future raids more like VoG than CE.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 22, 2015 9:24:53 GMT -5
If you don't want to get specific that's fine. I thought it a fair question though, especially if you're contending that the current system is flawed... which I at least partially agree with. I don't think it's fair to ask me to come up with my own design. I don't have that time. No one on here does. One is allowed to have a differing opinion, feel something isn't right, WITHOUT having to come up with their own fully worked out opposing plan. Just give us a hint then. If you have enough time to post long posts up here, you should have some time to at least give us a hint of something you would have not hated to get. I suppose I could be nicer. But from my end, I feel many of the higher ups at Bungie aren't working for the players anymore. My frustration (gaming frustration, not life frustrating...please understand that) is that the Bungie developers drop this Crota raid on us that essentially boils down into a solo raid. But then play politics and games with the drop rate of the Gajllorhorn, the ONE weapon that makes the raid much more workable when playing solo. Sorry if that offends you, but that is LAZINESS on their part. You won't fix the raid (probably because they can't), so they instead screw over the remaining players who don't have the Gjallorhorn, making it harder for them to get....to 'save' their player raid population end stats. Bungie doesn't want xx% of the player base getting it done. So they find other ways (drop rates) to stop it. Is that tin foil on my part? Maybe. But when I see players who get their 3rd, 4th, even 5th Gjallorhorn drop, while people like me, PostMortem, countless others...go a ridiculous amount of hours on this game and never get a sniff of one, ...it paints a bad picture on Bungie. So your point is, raids should not be able to be played solo Bungie, fix that shit! And why are you not giving me a Gjallor so I can solo it? I actually agree with the first point. Raids should not be able to be solo'd, just like night falls. But your second one seems kinda strange in the same post as the first one.
I for one, am glad not everybody has a Gjallarhorn. It would make the game less fun. Other than that, you are not obligated to play the raid solo. Hell it is way more fun with a fireteam
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 22, 2015 9:30:35 GMT -5
Just give us a hint then. If you have enough time to post long posts up here, you should have some time to at least give us a hint of something you would have not hated to get. Long? What you are, in 4th grade? That was a difficult read for you? To many big words? It only took my like five minutes to get that out. I'm not sure how you define 'long', but 5 min wasn't that difficult of a feat for me. I was having some coffee and reading this board before getting work stuff started. So I put that up. That post took about 40 seconds.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 22, 2015 9:38:50 GMT -5
I don't think that was the point... at all...
I think his point was that your posts were long enough to describe some hint of what you think would be better or how you think that NF loot tables should be changed even if you don't want to compile an entire loot table. (Although personally I think a loot table for NF even as it is now would actually be fairly small to be honest. I don't think Bungie bothered with complex loot algorithms. It all seems pretty stock simple there to me.)
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 22, 2015 9:40:07 GMT -5
Just give us a hint then. If you have enough time to post long posts up here, you should have some time to at least give us a hint of something you would have not hated to get. Long? What you are, in 4th grade? That was a difficult read for you? To many big words? It only took my like five minutes to get that out. I'm not sure how you define 'long', but 5 min wasn't that difficult of a feat for me. I was having some coffee and reading this board before getting work stuff started. So I put that up. That post took about 40 seconds. Really? That is what you are going with? Another personal attack? Mooooom, somebody on the internet is disproving my arguments. "Just tell them they are still in 4th grade, that will teach them" Wow thnx mom, that's a good idea!
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 22, 2015 9:41:17 GMT -5
Even if games are not art, (which is a whole other discussion and I disagree with you completely, because movies have just as much BS non art stuff as games and "Art" has had dynamic and interactive art pieces created and shown by artists for decades so I don't see that argument working either... but let's not have that arguement here... or at all... or at least not in the Destiny board) but even if games are not art I don't see how that changes anything. You can criticize movies and art based on technical aspects as well. You can clearly describe poor technique, continuity errors, special effects errors, editing errors, ect, ect... Some things have a stronger amount of opinion vs objectivity to the critique, but all things can be critiqued. Fair point. But I was trying to speak in black and white terms. The quality of a painting is subjective, mostly opinion based (yes, you could break down technical aspects like brush stroke technique). But it's noy interactive. Video games are. So on a whole, I don't really view them as 'art'. 31 sec, since qpie is keeping track of this stuff. I said video game frustration. Please read what I wrote. Which means any frustration I feel leaves the instant I am done with the game or typing this out. It's a silly video game. If I get a bit mean on here, call some Bungie people idiots or whatever, ..it's how I felt at that moment. This is a message board, a sub board that has only like 12 of us reading it. I'm not going to go auto-correct myself and spend time policing my own words (i do that enough with my work stuff) If I feel like calling them idiots, I will. If I feel like being juvenile, I will. I'll get to your other points in a bit. Phone call.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 22, 2015 9:42:38 GMT -5
Long? What you are, in 4th grade? That was a difficult read for you? To many big words? It only took my like five minutes to get that out. I'm not sure how you define 'long', but 5 min wasn't that difficult of a feat for me. I was having some coffee and reading this board before getting work stuff started. So I put that up. That post took about 40 seconds. Really? That is what you are going with? Another personal attack? Mooooom, somebody on the internet is disproving my arguments. "Just tell them they are still in 4th grade, that will teach them" Wow thnx mom, that's a good idea! So are the snarky comments about 'long' posts. You want to be a smart-ass, I can be one back. btw, it's not my job to go rushing to the keyboard to design up new loot tables, spend that time, ....all because you demand it on a message board as part of some argument. That's not how it works.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 22, 2015 9:47:37 GMT -5
Sigh, now please reply to the actual argument. I have given you arguments and all you can reply with is a nitpicking definition of the word "long".
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mannon
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wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 22, 2015 9:51:40 GMT -5
31 sec, since qpie is keeping track of this stuff. If I feel like being juvenile, I will. Ahh I see. Your philosophy well noted. Personally I don't see that sort of stuff as conversation. I don't see how it adds anything, even here with only ~12 people reading this, but fair point.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 22, 2015 9:59:28 GMT -5
Sigh, now please reply to the actual argument. I have given you arguments and all you can reply with is a nitpicking definition of the word "long". that's what you don't get. I was never arguing. You are the one who is trying to make this into some sort of Ph.D. dissertation defense. And half the shit you are trying to raise, are mostly straw man arguments that get away from what I said. I think the loot tables for the ROCs, Weeklies, NF's, etc... they all could be made better. I don't like 'em. Maybe it's because I am a rookie MMO?whatever person, but I think Destiny's are handled poorly. So be it. And yes, the Gjallorhorn is one key part of that, but that wasn't even part of my original gripe. It was the legendary scout rifle prize, which I thought was silly/dumb to drop as a prize. Now do I wish to engage in a long protracted debate over how rational my thoughts are? Not on this topic. It doesn't interest me enough. That said, if you do the work, present stuff, I would probably read it. I love discussing math/statistics. If you want to get into a huge debate this week, you should find a new topic. Like I have a submission grappling tournament this Saturday. That's what I am obsessing on now. Go with that one.
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qupie
True Bro
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Post by qupie on Apr 22, 2015 10:05:19 GMT -5
Sigh, now please reply to the actual argument. I have given you arguments and all you can reply with is a nitpicking definition of the word "long". that's what you don't get. I was never arguing. You are the one who is trying to make this into some sort of Ph.D. dissertation defense. And half the shit you are trying to raise, are mostly straw man arguments that get away from what I said. I think the loot tables for the ROCs, Weeklies, NF's, etc... they all could be made better. I don't like 'em. Maybe it's because I am a rookie MMO?whatever person, but I think Destiny's are handled poorly. So be it. And yes, the Gjallorhorn is one key part of that, but that wasn't even part of my original gripe. It was the legendary scout rifle prize, which I thought was silly/dumb to drop as a prize. Now do I wish to engage in a long protracted debate over how rational my thoughts are? Not on this topic. It doesn't interest me enough. That said, if you do the work, present stuff, I would probably read it. I love discussing math/statistics. Okay, I will repeat what I said then. As you probably missed it. Okay, so you think there is no chance for a Gjallorhorn to drop? Or what? I can't really follow this part. You think Bungie is keeping you from getting a Gjallarhorn? As in, this account is not getting the same chances as everybody else, because we don't like him? Or because you almost solo'd our lovely Crota? What is it you try to imply here? I will tell you this, every time you play a NF (or any other part of the game where you can earn an exotic) there truly is a legitimate random chance of getting the Gjallorhorn. Is it rare? yes it is. But in my own (limited) experience, it is less rare compared to a Hawkmoon or monte carlo (only have gotten those 1 time each). Lets do some statistics: There is 17 exotics you can earn in random drops. The chance of getting an exotic out of an possibly exotic chance like nightfall or Ir Yut is about? 1/6? (on average, Atheon or Ir yut gives one exotic per full fireteam, but that is just an rough estimation. Lets call these events PECE (possible exotic chance events)) This seems to be in line with the statistics found for nightfalls (~1/6). So I am going to use that number in this calculation. I know it is not an exact number, and I don't have any proof of it. I am just doing this calculation to make a point of estimation. That means that for every exotic weapon, there is a 1/17*1/6=1/102 chance to get it in a PECE. Destiny has been out 32 weeks now. There is a maximum of 5 PECE (NF, VoG chest, Atheon Hard, Ir Yut, Crota Hard) per character per week after DLC hit, so 15 per account. Pre DLC it was 3. I think it is reasonable to state hard core players did about 6 per week on average. That means 192 PECE. Seeing this number, is it so weird you didn't get a Gjallorhorn yet? I know it is allot of guesing, but I wanted to get to some numbers ppl can understand. A one in 100 chance not happening for 200 or even 300 rolls is not that strange. Period. Now lets calculate a little further. Chances of NOT getting a Gjallorhorn is 101/102. The probability of still not getting it after 192 PECE is (101/102)^224=0.151. That means one out of every 6.6 players (who played 192 PECE) will still not have Gjallor after all that time. The probability of still not getting it after 250 PECE is 0.085. Which means that one out of every 11.7 players (who played 250 PECE) will still not have Gjallor after all this time. Even though they played 250 PECE!!!! Hell, even if you did NF, VOG and Crota every time you could, the chances of NOT having a Gjallorhorn is pretty big. Nightfall has been out 31 weeks VoG has been out 30? weeks Crota normal has been out 17 weeks Crota hard has been out 13 weeks That gives 31 + 30 + 30 + 17 + 13 = 121 chances per character (NF + VOG chest + VOG hardmode Atheon + Crota chest/Ir Yut + Crota hard). Which translates to 363 chances if you COMPLETED ALL THESE events EVERYTIME you could. Not getting Gjallorhorn after 363 rolls is still 0.0279. That is 1 in 35. So for every 35 guardians who has completed ALL of these moments, still 1 would have no Gjallorhorn. Now, to go even further, I looked up your raid completions. On your main character, you completed VoG normal 8 times, hard 4 times. You completed Crota normal 10 times, hard 3 times. I know you deleted your older warlocks, so lets just assume you did it this much with all your characters. AND lets assume you did EVERY nightfall possible up until now. I get to (8 + 4 + 10 + 3) * 3 + 31 * 3 = 168. I am pretty certain that is not an underestimation, as I know for a fact you didn't have three characters the first week, and you also skipped some nightfalls. The chance to NOT get a Gjallorhorn out of PECE for your (overestimation) is: (101/102)^168 = 0.191. Which means that out of five players who played as much as you, one will not have a Gjallorhorn. Like I said, lady luck, is a total bitch. Out of my group of some very hard core players, there is a guy who didn't get it yet either, who played way way more than you did. Which is perfectly possible reading the above statistics. There is also a guy who never had a second character, and doesn't even have half of the exotics in the game, but he already has two Gjallarhorns.... Random will be random. And yes, again, I know these are estimations. But I don't give a shit. It is to make a point of estimation. Even a 9/10 chance doesn't happen one out of ten times! This is something some ppl don't seem to understand.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 22, 2015 10:14:34 GMT -5
Okay, I will repeat what I said then. As you probably missed it. Didn't miss it. I just saw nothing but straw man arguing by you. I don't find that fun to engage in. But I'll play along for a few. Here's my quote you brought back up.... [/i] ...and to get to your questions on it. Straw man. I never said that. In fact, I already openly disclosed that it drops in the NF's, right above in what YOU quoted from me. Facetious? Straw man. Did I ever say, imnply or even hint that Bungie is singling out me, "IW5000', on like some personal vendetta? Good lord. Snarky Facetious? If you SERIOUSLY wanted to know, and are trying to be all doctoral like...wouldn't a better way to go about it, would be to just ask, rather than doing all the bvllshit you did above? Just saying. And that's where I stop.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 22, 2015 10:44:38 GMT -5
I just fell of my chair.
Good luck with that grappling tournament. I hope there is some real money in that...
Have a good day!
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