wings
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Post by wings on Apr 22, 2015 10:47:25 GMT -5
I suppose I could be nicer. But from my end, I feel many of the higher ups at Bungie aren't working for the players anymore. My frustration (gaming frustration, not life frustrating...please understand that) is that the Bungie developers drop this Crota raid on us that essentially boils down into a solo raid. But then play politics and games with the drop rate of the Gajllorhorn, the ONE weapon that makes the raid much more workable when playing solo. Sorry if that offends you, but that is LAZINESS on their part. You won't fix the raid (probably because they can't), so they instead screw over the remaining players who don't have the Gjallorhorn, making it harder for them to get....to 'save' their player raid population end stats. Bungie doesn't want xx% of the player base getting it done. So they find other ways (drop rates) to stop it. Is that tin foil on my part? Maybe. But when I see players who get their 3rd, 4th, even 5th Gjallorhorn drop, while people like me, PostMortem, countless others...go a ridiculous amount of hours on this game and never get a sniff of one, ...it paints a bad picture on Bungie. Well they could easily mitigate the need to have a Gjallarhorn in several ways: 1. They could nerf the enemies health in Crota's End, instead hard mode has level 33 enemies. They gave Valus Ta'aurc's a whopping 33% health nerf recently but at least Valus made sense to be a bullet sponge unlike others. 2. Allow the Gunsmith to reforge weapons so rocket launchers have a good chance to have tracking. 3. Give more stock on the vendors where a rocket launcher is being sold that has tracking and is not a grind to purchase. However, 150 Crucible Marks takes a long time so people usually opt for the Vanguard Quartermaster since you can no longer exchange Destination Materials for Marks. 4. "Ah but Xur has sold the Truth a 100 times!", well there's the issue in a limited timed vendor who has little stock so people miss on what he's selling. He's of limited use to players with advanced progress, and of high gaming importance to those with less progress and his availability makes this worse. 5. Move the exotic chance back to the Abyss chest. 6. Make the encounter not highly dictated by one specific tactic. This is partly as a result of the minimal character differences. In Borderlands 2 you had to approach many Raid bosses very differently depending on your character because of their skill trees. That said, RNG involving weapon drops meant that some characters could become disproportionately affected, e.g. players using Zer0 with no fast firing sniper rifles are gimping their DPS by gazillions unless they use a melee build and/or use B0re with a Pimpernel, which requires DLC on last gen. I've never felt the need to get the Gjallarhorn, until I've played Crota because not everyone has tracking rockets in some groups I've been, and I have the Truth which I guess might be the third best launcher to use against him. I get eight rockets in total with my Warlock because of Heart of the Praxic Fire and that's not enough to wonder if everyone has tracking rockets.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 22, 2015 10:57:22 GMT -5
I also never felt the need to get it. I often don't even change it from my titan to warlock/hunter when doing anything!
The only reason I feel the need is to compensate for something like you pointed out. (teammates who don't have the appropriate gear or no teammates at all)
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 22, 2015 11:16:11 GMT -5
I suppose I could be nicer. But from my end, I feel many of the higher ups at Bungie aren't working for the players anymore. My frustration (gaming frustration, not life frustrating...please understand that) is that the Bungie developers drop this Crota raid on us that essentially boils down into a solo raid. But then play politics and games with the drop rate of the Gajllorhorn, the ONE weapon that makes the raid much more workable when playing solo. Sorry if that offends you, but that is LAZINESS on their part. You won't fix the raid (probably because they can't), so they instead screw over the remaining players who don't have the Gjallorhorn, making it harder for them to get....to 'save' their player raid population end stats. Bungie doesn't want xx% of the player base getting it done. So they find other ways (drop rates) to stop it. Is that tin foil on my part? Maybe. But when I see players who get their 3rd, 4th, even 5th Gjallorhorn drop, while people like me, PostMortem, countless others...go a ridiculous amount of hours on this game and never get a sniff of one, ...it paints a bad picture on Bungie. Well they could easily mitigate the need to have a Gjallarhorn in several ways: 1. They could nerf the enemies health in Crota's End, instead hard mode has level 33 enemies. They gave Valus Ta'aurc's a whopping 33% health nerf recently but at least Valus made sense to be a bullet sponge unlike others. 2. Allow the Gunsmith to reforge weapons so rocket launchers have a good chance to have tracking. 3. Give more stock on the vendors where a rocket launcher is being sold that has tracking and is not a grind to purchase. However, 150 Crucible Marks takes a long time so people usually opt for the Vanguard Quartermaster since you can no longer exchange Destination Materials for Marks. 4. "Ah but Xur has sold the Truth a 100 times!", well there's the issue in a limited timed vendor who has little stock so people miss on what he's selling. He's of limited use to players with advanced progress, and of high gaming importance to those with less progress and his availability makes this worse. 5. Move the exotic chance back to the Abyss chest. 6. Make the encounter not highly dictated by one specific tactic. This is partly as a result of the minimal character differences. In Borderlands 2 you had to approach many Raid bosses very differently depending on your character because of their skill trees. That said, RNG involving weapon drops meant that some characters could become disproportionately affected, e.g. players using Zer0 with no fast firing sniper rifles are gimping their DPS by gazillions unless they use a melee build and/or use B0re with a Pimpernel, which requires DLC on last gen. I've never felt the need to get the Gjallarhorn, until I've played Crota because not everyone has tracking rockets in some groups I've been, and I have the Truth which I guess might be the third best launcher to use against him. I get eight rockets in total with my Warlock because of Heart of the Praxic Fire and that's not enough to wonder if everyone has tracking rockets. Crota is fine and easy with a group. Almost to easy once you know what you are doing. Even as far down as even 3 people (without Gjallhorns too) I have done this many times. The only time I ever really 'need' the Gjallorhorn is when doing solo Crota stuff. And that's one small part of my gripe. It's the one thing I still find challenging in this game. I watch the videos of people doing the solo Crota thing in 13 minutes...and then I go try and do it. Beat it. And realize I can't. There's just no way to use tactics and skill, to make up for it's raw power. Like in the DeathSinger stage. The Gjallhorn can smash a shreiker in one shot, all others take two. That extra time kills a person. And especially on Crota. My evidence is only anecdotal and my own personal...but I've gotten every gun in this game multiple times over... and I find it annoying how bungie handles the Gjallhorn. Tweaking the loot tables, to make this rare gun, even harder to get. And especially so for people who don't have it now. My opinion is that they are definitely tweaking shit to keep this out of people's hands, for gameplay balancing purposes. They are NOT leaving it up to the loot odds/Gods. So as it is now, it screws up gameplay when doing things like Crota solo. And yes, I know that's not how Crota is supposed to be played...but guess what? That's how Bungie designed it. Their fault, not mine.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 22, 2015 11:50:22 GMT -5
Even if they are tweaking drop rates that is still leaving it to chance. Personally I've not seen any real evidence that the drop rate actually is lower for it, but really we just don't know.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 22, 2015 13:36:05 GMT -5
Even if they are tweaking drop rates that is still leaving it to chance. Personally I've not seen any real evidence that the drop rate actually is lower for it, but really we just don't know. Well, we would never know. I can't prove it. I just know what I see. I get all these exotic drops of IB, Hardlights, Suros's, etc... I couldn't even begin to list how many exotic weapon drops I have gotten from NF's, Raids and other places, but never ever ever a Gjallorhorn. I think I have shredded five Ice breakers? And I have three right now. I have shredded at least four Suros Regime's (I have 2). The stupid dragon launcher. Got two of those, shredded two of them. Truth? I have three (only one leveled), and I think I shredded one. I can go on, but I think I got my point across... ...and not one Gjallorhorn. Again, not a world-coming-to-end type of deal. I will survive and be ok. I'll make it. But if it comes out later that Bungie developers fvcked with the Gjallorhon rates, to make it even harder, for fear of their raid getting embarrassed even further, I'm going to go out to California and punch them all in the face.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 22, 2015 13:39:41 GMT -5
It's the nature of MMO's...
Years ago, when I played DDO, we could make dragonscale armour with items that would customize the armour for perks that we wanted. As a barb, I wanted +20% healing. There was only one mission you could get it in: Prey on the Hunter. I ran that mission over 200 times to get what I needed to get.
Just bad luck.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 22, 2015 13:56:19 GMT -5
It's the nature of MMO's... Years ago, when I played DDO, we could make dragonscale armour with items that would customize the armour for perks that we wanted. As a barb, I wanted +20% healing. There was only one mission you could get it in: Prey on the Hunter. I ran that mission over 200 times to get what I needed to get. Just bad luck. Bad luck, I can deal with. Monthly stealth reductions in the Gjallorhorn drop rates, so as to avoid developer but-hurt feelings about their raid and other strikes, ...not good. I can't prove that, but that's my gut feeling.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 22, 2015 13:58:50 GMT -5
Bad luck, I can deal with. Monthly stealth reductions in the Gjallorhorn drop rates, so as to avoid developer but-hurt feelings about their raid and other strikes, ...not good. I can't prove that, but that's my gut feeling. we'll agree to disagree...
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wings
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Post by wings on Apr 22, 2015 14:48:25 GMT -5
You could have a mercy rule with drops but loot based games probably don't do that ever. So if you have successfully attempted something for an exotic after x tries, you then get the choice of what you want.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 22, 2015 14:54:09 GMT -5
You could have a mercy rule with drops but loot based games probably don't do that ever. So if you have successfully attempted something for an exotic after x tries, you then get the choice of what you want. I think that's a fair thing.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 22, 2015 15:03:58 GMT -5
You could have a mercy rule with drops but loot based games probably don't do that ever. So if you have successfully attempted something for an exotic after x tries, you then get the choice of what you want. So, you want a pity-f%%k then?
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 22, 2015 15:09:20 GMT -5
Bad luck, I can deal with. Monthly stealth reductions in the Gjallorhorn drop rates, so as to avoid developer but-hurt feelings about their raid and other strikes, ...not good. I can't prove that, but that's my gut feeling. we'll agree to disagree... I agree to agree to disagree... ;3 As for the unfairness of RNG I think there should be some more mitigation there, although I'm not sure exactly how that should work. It could be a change to the loot code to take either your history or your inventory into account, an alternate path to earn items you haven't had drop for you, or a way to exchange and reroll for a new chance at the item you desire. I'd prefer it not be totally strait forward like, (Do X activity Y times and pick any exotic.)
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 22, 2015 15:11:05 GMT -5
Well, in HoW, you can reroll HoW gear, so that should appease some people
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 22, 2015 15:27:59 GMT -5
It still won't get you Gjallorhorn. But I definitely think this looks interesting, especially since we'll be able to upgrade all the legendary and exotic weapons to the new attack levels apparently.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 22, 2015 15:44:44 GMT -5
No... nor should it get you the best weapon in the game. But it will let you spend your motes to get your guns how you like 'em
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wings
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Post by wings on Apr 22, 2015 15:53:24 GMT -5
You could have a mercy rule with drops but loot based games probably don't do that ever. So if you have successfully attempted something for an exotic after x tries, you then get the choice of what you want. So, you want a pity-f%%k then? As opposed to people being able to buy exotics from Xur that they would not have been able to achieve via Nightfalls and the Raids?
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 22, 2015 15:55:17 GMT -5
You could have a mercy rule with drops but loot based games probably don't do that ever. So if you have successfully attempted something for an exotic after x tries, you then get the choice of what you want. So, you want a pity-f%%k then? Not really sure why you would say something like that.
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wings
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Post by wings on Apr 22, 2015 17:38:41 GMT -5
Well i got the Suros Regime and Red Death from the Gorgon chest and Ice Breaker from Atheon. This was normal so i don't know if I get another shot at the global exotics chance if I played on hard since I am only after the Fatebringer now as I got the Vex last week. I guess another way would be for the game to look at what items you have been awarded and give you something you don't have, although this was a good run so I am not complaining here. Just a bit silly that i now have three Suros Regimes, four Red Deaths and five Ice Breakers.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 23, 2015 8:25:19 GMT -5
3 nightfalls... crappy FWC pulse rifle, 8 AShards, a 2nd vanquisher III in as many days. Hey bradman... how did you do, you LUCKY SON OF A B%%TCH??!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!?1 EDIT: $hit... wrong week
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 23, 2015 8:30:17 GMT -5
I hear you Wings.
I have had, in my possession at one point or another, a total of EIGHT icebreakers so far in this game. I have three of them fully leveled now. The other five I have shredded. I have had around six Suros Regimes in all. I mentioned all of this a few posts above. I can go right on down the line with this with every exotic weapon in the game. Even the crap new sniper rifle, 'No Land Beyond'. Came out in mid December and I've seen FOUR of those in this game already. I've recieved EVERY exotic weapon in this game, a minimum of three times.
Zero Gjallorhorns.
IMHO, something more is at play than bad luck and that's my gripe. If Bungie developers don't want people smashing down their Crota raid, as well as other stuff ...there are better ways to fix things than rigging the loot/odd tables, making the G-horn harder to get for people who don't have it. Trying to protect their finishing ratios and stats. And i'll be blunt. Those who do have the Ghorn already? Many of the people I know who have it, they've seen drop multiple times for themselves. That's where the confusion lies. People say, "I just saw it drop the other day for two people". Yes. And more than likely, those people already have one. I know one person I have played with in the past, got five of them to drop.
IMHO, Bungie messed with the loot tables, making the Ghorn harder to get for those who don't have it. People will give me sh1t for saying it. But look at Xur. Everyone knows gosh darn golly gee whiz well Bungie has tinkered around with the odds on those drops, so the GHorn won't appear. Why is it such a stretch, to think they would do the same for individual drops, to people who don't have it? The Xur drops are planned out. Bungie has messed with this. We know this now.
That's my tin foil conspiracy.
And yes, it is griping. But I want to be able to play the game, with the same tools other people have when doing solo crota stuff. I know it's an MMO, but give me a break. I'm not being handed fair loot table odds.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 23, 2015 8:53:25 GMT -5
And yes, it is griping. But I want to be able to play the game, with the same tools other people have when doing solo crota stuff. I know it's an MMO, but give me a break. I'm not being handed fair loot table odds. Yes you are Spoiler: Avoid Brad's post
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 23, 2015 8:59:14 GMT -5
And yes, it is griping. But I want to be able to play the game, with the same tools other people have when doing solo crota stuff. I know it's an MMO, but give me a break. I'm not being handed fair loot table odds. Yes you are Spoiler: Avoid Brad's post lol, i'll do my best there.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 23, 2015 9:09:29 GMT -5
Yes you are Spoiler: Avoid Brad's post lol, i'll do my best there. Without going into specifics, his recent activity suggests that the RNGebbuz smiles on him
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 23, 2015 11:30:42 GMT -5
Yeah... still gonna agree to disagree with you. So far data miners have shown strong evidence that there is a version of Xur that has potentially hand picked inventory, but that version is rarely implemented. The normal version of xur has his inventory predetermined, but we have no evidence as to how it is determined other than Bungie saying it's random. Personally I think that if they have to use a special version of him from time to time to hand pick his inventory then the normal version must be randomized... otherwise why are there two Xurs? It makes no sense to hand pick a predetermined table of inventory then override that table. You would just change the table. But there's no proof either way.
It also hasn't been demonstrably proven that Gjallorhorn cannot be sold by Xur, merely that it has not shown up in his predetermined inventory tables since data miners started looking ahead, but those only go so far into the future. Not saying it is going to be sold someday (again), just pointing out the limits of what we know.
I also don't think there's nearly enough evidence to say Gjallorhorn drop rates are skewed away from people that don't have it. It's an okay theory, if a bit paranoid, and with a small sample of anecdotal evidence. I won't dismiss it, but I don't think it passes Occam's razor. I would be more inclined to believe it's either just RNG or Gjallorhorn has a universally lower drop rate than other exotics and it's still just RNG.
I don't see a good reason for players who already have Gjallorhorn to get a higher Gjallorhorn drop rate. The only way that makes sense is if Bungie wants to keep it out of players hands that don't have it, but artificially inflate the drop rate so nobody notices... but as limited as our data on drop rates is that seems pointless to me. Our very lack of data on drop rates makes this a pretty weak motive IMO. Why so much subterfuge to tell a lie almost nobody will even hear or notice? To me this theory sounds paranoid and a tad superstitious, but if you see malevolent intent in Bungie's every move then I guess it makes perfect sense.
BTW I wonder if in your anecdotal evidence on exotics duplicates you have remembered to subtract all copies of exotics from Xur or Bounties and only count drops? I'm guessing you have, but then either way we don't have any real data to go with this and it's a terribly small sample size. I can see why you would feel the way you do, though.
Technically I don't think Destiny is an MMO... actually more than just technically. It borrows a couple of MMO features but it's really lacking in most. Really it's just a shooter with heavy emphasis on PvE, RPG-like progression, and co-op.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 23, 2015 13:14:11 GMT -5
Yeah... still gonna agree to disagree with you. So far data miners have shown strong evidence that there is a version of Xur that has potentially hand picked inventory, but that version is rarely implemented. I would respectively counter with this. If they did it even one time ...then my entire point is validated 100% It's not random. It makes 100% perfect sense to have two Xurs. One, to balance out things when weird statistical anomalies occur, like a certain gun/armor piece not appearing. Two, to add or remove certain guns from the population, for game balancing purposes. Like the GHorn. In fact, any developer that DIDN'T do the above, would be quite stupid. No one, and I do repeat no one, is going to leave a billion dollar game franchise to pure randomness, without any controls in place. Bungie's 'random' is basically a 'random, as long as it's what we like" Furthermore, take the supposed Xur exotic weapon 'random' drop. Take a look at how it's unfolding, with each of the Exotics slowing rounding out to dropping an even 3 to 4 times....making things balanced in terms of weapon drop. Ok, but look. You will never be able 'prove' it can't be sold, because we already fully know Bungie can and will manipulate drops if they decide they need too. All they have to do is go into the second list and remove it. Which they might have. I will admit, that theory of mine is heavily coated with tin foil. But they only reason I even regurgitate it on here, is because I know Bungie heavily fusses over player population stats, like how many people finish raids. We already have seen them tweak lots of gun data and other things. If they felt the GHorn was wrecking Raids to much, finishing ratios, the best way to 'fix' this problem would be to limit the drop rates on people who don't have it. That way present owners of the GHorn, wouldn't get upset with the nerf, while players without out, would be in the dark to their diminished chances. Bungie could just play dumb, and blame it on the loot Gods. If I was running Bungie, this is how I would do it. It would piss off the fewest people. They wouldn't. Their rate would stay the same. Which would explain why people who have one, tend to get second and third drops too. Just like how I get repeated drops on EVERY OTHER exotic weapon in the game. Maybe. That's getting close to my theory up above. Motive? The motive is game balance issues. The best motive in the world. And it's hardly lying, at least that's how Bungie would view it. Bungie is already openly tweaking guns and stuff all the time. They are allowed to do it. Part of the game. And would they hide that? Why not. They never told you about the second Xur list, until after it was exposed. Right? My own data is accurate. I sort of track it, because I am a nerd like that.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 23, 2015 14:31:45 GMT -5
I'm not sure exactly which point is validated by even one instance of Xur not being random. Evidence so far seems to suggest that his inventory is normally drawn from a randomized list and occationall overridden with what is probably hand picked inventory.
It does make sense to have two Xurs if you have two methods of controlling him. My point there was that it doesn't make sense to have a second version of Xur to override the predetermined list if your entire list is merely hand picked anyway. You could just edit the list any time you want.
I also reject your assumption that it's necessary to put heavy controls on the population of certain items in the game. It's not like we can trade. It does make sense for more powerful items to be more rare, but with the instanced inventories and minimal social aspects as long as things fall into the progression curve used to gate content I don't really see an issue here. I'm not arguing this, just disagreeing.
We certainly know Bungie can and will use the Special Xur to probably sell hand picked inventory from time to time. Whether or not Gjallorhorn could ever be sold by normal Xur can probably only be proven one of two ways. A. Normal Xur sells it. B. Normal Xur never sells it. Granted B is more like a reduction of odds since we'll never get to an infinite amount of data, but we will eventually have a pretty big sample.
I disagree that the best way to fix GHorn wrecking raids is to fiddle with drop rates. The best way would be to modify GHorn and/or the raids so that they perform as desired with or without GHorn. I also think that's a simpler solution which makes much more sense because it affects everybody. Completion rates are relevant for what they tell you about how the raid plays. Manipulating completion rates themselves for no other reason than to have a target seems like an odd thing to do to me.
Your theory above was that players that don't have GHorn get a lower drop rate. Conversely players that have it would get a higher drop rate by comparison. What I'm getting at is I don't see Bungie's motive to do it the way your theory states rather than simply reducing the drop rate for GHorn universally. Why bother with a different rate for players that have or don't have it when we don't have data on drop rates anyway?
Anyway, not to resurrect all the randomness debates. I just thought I'd highlight some of the counterpoints.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 23, 2015 14:45:45 GMT -5
*sigh*
You two....
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 23, 2015 15:10:28 GMT -5
From my limited knowledge of Raids (what I read on here), Bungie is incapable of 'fixing' Crota to the degree needed, to make it so that the Gjallorhorn doesn't wreck it silly. So that really isn't an option. You can't fix Crota. What is done, is done.
Modifying the GHorn? No chance. That would piss off the entire YouTube community, that basically lives off the Ghorn's ability in making Raids easier for all their videos. Developer rule 101, don't piss off the most vocal and visible part of your community.
The easiest? Let those people go, and simply keep the GHorn population in check, but stealth reducing it's availability to the rest of the Destiny player base. Cut it's drop rates by 90%. Take it off Xur's list. Etc...
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Apr 23, 2015 15:15:26 GMT -5
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 23, 2015 15:15:37 GMT -5
Or just leave it as it is, because the system works.
It's just bad luck/chance.
it is what it is
EDIT: Just ask Mr. Horn, John Coltrane over here
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