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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 8:50:31 GMT -5
I completely agree, as witty was asking the question, the answer was mostly directed at him. And reading how little he has, it is not worth it. Hell I think for the most players on this board it is not worth it. I have 22 EL in my vault atm from playing pvp alone, simply because I have no time to figure out what PvE weapons I want to ascend, and I still use 335 level weapons in ToO/IB. I am going to figure it out when I have some time during holiday what I will ascent. So while I agree that worth is a subjective measure, I know how much you guys have more or less, and that's why I can actually make that assessment. So if somebody with limited time asks whether it is worth it to ascend their shotgun for PvP, I wholeheartedly say no, and know that is the right answer. The second part as worth is subjective in crucible as well, you make a valid point, the problem is, I am willing to argue it makes NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL. As far as I know, lvl 335 on lvl 34 vs 365 on lvl 34 doesn't make a difference at all. Even if it did make a difference, it would be really really small (like 1%) The problem is that 1% damage difference (very) rarely actually makes a difference, especially with shotguns. The good shotguns in destiny do 23/24 damage. Players have 200 health. That means that even IF your 335 shotgun get only 22/23 damage because your weapon has a lower attack rating, this doesn't alter the number of pallets you need to kill, save from some very small and almost only theoretical distances. IF it even makes a difference. The only thing bungie said about attack levels is that a lower level player CAN still be great thread IF they have high attack level guns, and from my experience, that is the only way it actually matters, if you underleveled. Shotguns are a very hard way to test this stuff because of the range drop off, but I tested my thorn in ToO and a 335 and 365 thorn did the same amount of damage per hit and per DoT tick. So imho one CAN assess if it is worth it, and one can even call it worthless. You used the ToO as an example. That's not Iron Banner rules, is it? As I already mentioned, I found the same results you did when testing in the regular Crucible. 365 vs 331 does not matter. But Crucible & ToO are not the IB. What you are also missing is that I was a 'lower level player'. I was not playing as a lv 34 vs a Lv 34. I was under-leveled, so I fit the bill for what you described. I agree, shotguns are very hard to test for. But if it helps me win ONE encounter a game....then by any argument made, it's giving essentially the same benefits Radiant Skin gives over someone who is not using it. I would be interested in reading more, if someone can find it.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 7, 2015 9:03:25 GMT -5
I completely agree, as witty was asking the question, the answer was mostly directed at him. And reading how little he has, it is not worth it. Hell I think for the most players on this board it is not worth it. I have 22 EL in my vault atm from playing pvp alone, simply because I have no time to figure out what PvE weapons I want to ascend, and I still use 335 level weapons in ToO/IB. I am going to figure it out when I have some time during holiday what I will ascent. So while I agree that worth is a subjective measure, I know how much you guys have more or less, and that's why I can actually make that assessment. So if somebody with limited time asks whether it is worth it to ascend their shotgun for PvP, I wholeheartedly say no, and know that is the right answer. The second part as worth is subjective in crucible as well, you make a valid point, the problem is, I am willing to argue it makes NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL. As far as I know, lvl 335 on lvl 34 vs 365 on lvl 34 doesn't make a difference at all. Even if it did make a difference, it would be really really small (like 1%) The problem is that 1% damage difference (very) rarely actually makes a difference, especially with shotguns. The good shotguns in destiny do 23/24 damage. Players have 200 health. That means that even IF your 335 shotgun get only 22/23 damage because your weapon has a lower attack rating, this doesn't alter the number of pallets you need to kill, save from some very small and almost only theoretical distances. IF it even makes a difference. The only thing bungie said about attack levels is that a lower level player CAN still be great thread IF they have high attack level guns, and from my experience, that is the only way it actually matters, if you underleveled. Shotguns are a very hard way to test this stuff because of the range drop off, but I tested my thorn in ToO and a 335 and 365 thorn did the same amount of damage per hit and per DoT tick. So imho one CAN assess if it is worth it, and one can even call it worthless. You used the ToO as an example. That's not Iron Banner rules, is it? Yes it is What you are also missing is that I was a 'lower level player'. I was not playing as a lv 34 vs a Lv 34. I was under-leveled, so I fit the bill for what you described. I did not know that, but I think even for lvl 33 there is no difference, because I have often been a 33 with 335 attack in ToO. Btw, like I said before, witty was asking whether putting his last hard earned EL into his pvp shotgun was worth it, I am by no means saying you made a noob move. Even if it doesn't matter at all, you are probably able to rack up some EL in no time anyway. But for him, it certainly is not worth it.I agree, shotguns are very hard to test for. But if it helps me win ONE encounter a game....then by any argument made, it's giving essentially the same benefits Radiant Skin gives over someone who is not using it. This is really weird reasoning imho, giving sombody 12.5% extra health is the same benefit as giving somebody 0-1% extra damage on a gun which doesn't lower the amount of bullets/pallets needed to kill in any way?I would be interested in reading more, if someone can find it. I have been looking allot, and as far as I know it is not known. I have been looking at some youtube iron banner footage, and there you can also see no difference between 335 weapons and 365 as far as I have seen. The damage numbers are actually quite clearly visible in destiny, so it is not that hard to conclude.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 9:04:28 GMT -5
I'd guess some of that issue is probably related to lag. I know I had at least one occasion last night where I rocked somebody point blank with a 331 Matador, and barely took the shield off. I was at level 34 so level didn't matter. I even turned around after shooting knowing there's no way I missed and no way they could live through that. I have enough experience with a 331 Felwinter's which has slightly less impact than my Matador to know that 100%. Then I got shot in the back by that guy and died. The only explanation was that I missed because he wasn't where he actually appeared on my screen. I've started chalking up pretty much everything goofy like up to lag, especially in IB which is even more of a lagfest than normal. Take it for what it's worth, but a lot of people were complaining about lag this past IB I saw shit like this. Anyone else?
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 7, 2015 9:07:27 GMT -5
I didn't see stuff like that, but I also only got two characters to lvl 3, and I get the feeling bungies netcode is allot more sensitive to US networking problems compared to EU ones for some reason. There also was a thread that ppl could influence this lag themselves by lowering the MTU on your console. There seems to be a sweet spot somewhere around 800 MTU where you can shoot somebody but you can't get shot. Hopefully bungie picks up on this fast and actually pushiness ppl who have bad connection, or maybe even filter them out of crucible (although that would induce some very serious whining, which may or may not be valid)
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 9:11:46 GMT -5
Here's another one.
anyone else come across people standing right next to a wall, and you couldn't shoot them? They aren't moving. They aren't doing anything. They appear to be AFK. But they couldn't be killed.
I saw this maybe around 15 to 20 times this weekend.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 7, 2015 9:17:56 GMT -5
Yup, I saw a few instances pretty similar to that, IW. Usually it didn't last all game though. I had several lobbies where it'd fluctuate from all green bars at one time, then next time I died it was all red and yellow bars. Weird and frustrating to say the least.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 7, 2015 9:32:46 GMT -5
Sounds like the MTU glitch, which was also used to be unkillable and just capture the capture point at the end of every ToO round. apparently capping a point needs less MTU than killing or getting killed. Bungie needs to up their netcode and pvp support asap. I have not seen it myself but here you go:
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 9:33:26 GMT -5
Yup, I saw a few instances pretty similar to that, IW. Usually it didn't last all game though. I had several lobbies where it'd fluctuate from all green bars at one time, then next time I died it was all red and yellow bars. Weird and frustrating to say the least. The wall people didn't bug me. They are just standing there. Do you know why they do that? Is this a way to AFK without being shot?
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wings
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Post by wings on Jul 7, 2015 10:14:06 GMT -5
I didn't see stuff like that, but I also only got two characters to lvl 3, and I get the feeling bungies netcode is allot more sensitive to US networking problems compared to EU ones for some reason. There also was a thread that ppl could influence this lag themselves by lowering the MTU on your console. There seems to be a sweet spot somewhere around 800 MTU where you can shoot somebody but you can't get shot. Hopefully bungie picks up on this fast and actually pushiness ppl who have bad connection, or maybe even filter them out of crucible (although that would induce some very serious whining, which may or may not be valid) You really think they are going to want to drive away potential money from people living with horrid connections? I usually suffer from players in Spain and Italy for some reason. I get a few Dutch players but no problems there so I guess they are cool dudes. The game should be matchmaking players better to start with to be honest. Bungie claims it matches people with connection quality for Trials but then most should be geographically close to me, but I still get the European Championships at times. Speaking of cheaters, I'll get this video of mine uploaded some time now Iron Banner has gone. It seems Bungie hasn't made reporting them in-game very good and it's probably a placebo feature. I will probably stick it on Reddit and claim it's lag to avoid the witch hunt rule. May be someone from Bungie will tell me an email address I can send video footage since they have representatives on there anyway. With spawns, perhaps Guardians should be invisible for five seconds to help evade being killed immediately upon spawn but they are not allowed to do anything but move. I've had that done to me what is in the animated GIF and it makes me rage quit. On Twilight Gap I spawned underneath an enemy who had a Super activated and I somehow backed out to orbit before being killed.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 7, 2015 11:04:55 GMT -5
You really think they are going to want to drive away potential money from people living with horrid connections? Seems stupid, but it is what other games are doing right? in COD you almost never get advantage from lag, but in destiny you sometimes do. I usually suffer from players in Spain and Italy for some reason. I get a few Dutch players but no problems there so I guess they are cool dudes. Thanks The game should be matchmaking players better to start with to be honest. Agreed, Foxtrot any type of matchmaking, connection should be the most important by a long margin. There are plenty players in my vicinity, I should get teamed up with them more regularly. I do get at least one dutch player in about every other lobby though. Bungie claims it matches people with connection quality for Trials but then most should be geographically close to me, but I still get the European Championships at times. Trials has been very smooth connection wise for me, only about 1/8 games or so were bad connections. You are from UK right? it isn't that weird you get european connections sometimes then. There is like a 10 second window of matchmaking most of the time? It is not too far fetched there is not always a UK team available within such a short timeframe. Although it is not the best matchmaking ever, I would lover if they simply put all of ToO matchmaking into all crucible variants, and maybe lower it to 5 vs 5 to limit some of the lag as well.(I am guessing making teams smaller will help, but don't actually have any knowledge on that matter) Speaking of cheaters, I'll get this video of mine uploaded some time now Iron Banner has gone. It seems Bungie hasn't made reporting them in-game very good and it's probably a placebo feature. I will probably stick it on Reddit and claim it's lag to avoid the witch hunt rule. May be someone from Bungie will tell me an email address I can send video footage since they have representatives on there anyway. With spawns, perhaps Guardians should be invisible for five seconds to help evade being killed immediately upon spawn but they are not allowed to do anything but move. I've had that done to me what is in the animated GIF and it makes me rage quit. On Twilight Gap I spawned underneath an enemy who had a Super activated and I somehow backed out to orbit before being killed.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jul 7, 2015 11:18:58 GMT -5
I think I might suffer a bit more for Trials because I do team up with people in North America. I'll see if I can get players with closer proximity to myself. I know it's a bit of a pain doing PvE content with Aussies because of lag but they always blame their own Internet for that. Still, even if Trials is supposedly connection based, the chances are I should be finding players who are on average closer to me due to ping times. And London is like 30 miles away from where I live and I would like to think there are enough Destiny players there for me to be matched up with.
I'm not sure if lagging players are always at an advantage in Destiny. That is something I hear quite a bit on Reddit but I've seen lagging players have horrid games.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jul 7, 2015 12:28:52 GMT -5
I think the only real harm in ascending a weapon with a non god-tier roll, (other than opportunity cost of ascending other items) is that reforging it will waste the EL.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 7, 2015 12:40:43 GMT -5
I'm not sure if lagging players are always at an advantage in Destiny. That is something I hear quite a bit on Reddit but I've seen lagging players have horrid games. This is very very true, people only seem to remember the bad things. For the most part I think lagging players get more disadvantages than advantages. But there are some instances where the lagging players seems to get the advantage, which should never happen in a PFS imho. (It certainly never happened in COD AFAIK)
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jul 7, 2015 12:57:23 GMT -5
It could happen in CoD, but it was more timing than teleporting and near invincibility. (Although trying to fend of lagging players going on a commando knife spree in MW2 would result in lots of bullets fired in vain.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 12:58:43 GMT -5
It could happen in CoD, but it was more timing than teleporting and near invincibility. (Although trying to fend of lagging players going on a commando knife spree in MW2 would result in lots of bullets fired in vain. When Destiny lags, it REALLY lags.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 7, 2015 13:00:22 GMT -5
Oh yeah, I forgot about commando + lag. MW2 was such a great game, if they only nerfed commando and noob tubes it would have been perfect. Commando made me feel perfectly fine using the heartbeat sensor. I loved getting the hate mail from commando users.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 7, 2015 13:14:15 GMT -5
Keep in mind that CoD is a twitch shooter while Destiny's has much longer TTK. As bad as how much player have been complaining about CoD, it is light years ahead of Destiny in terms of netcode. Bungie's focus on Destiny for year 1 is in PvE, so they did not seriously invest in optimizing the PvP experience.
With my limited experience with FPS MP games, Titanfall is THE best, even with the fast TTK and crazy movement, you almost never ever feel lag. That convinced me that in order to have a great MP experience, the game needs to seriously use dedicated servers and go 60 FPS.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jul 7, 2015 13:33:57 GMT -5
When Destiny lags, it REALLY lags. Yeah you're not kidding! heh I'm not disagreeing, just pointing out that it could benefit the laggy player in CoD as well. I'm also going to agree on Titanfall... Honestly I think TF is to date my all time favorite multiplayer game. I loved the hell out of MW2, TFC, and even good old Jedi Knight way back in the day... but TF FTMFW. It's so close to perfect that all my complaints are just splitting hairs. In fact my biggest complaint is that there's just not enough game to the game. I want moare! I still go back and play from time to time although you can only play attrition anymore unless you don't mind a really long wait.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 7, 2015 13:39:01 GMT -5
I think we all agree Titanfall was a real gem. I feel like playing it again sometimes, but now I bought a PS4 (because my friends, who rarely play no anyways thought it would be better than xbox) I will have to pay for XBL just to play titanfall, which sucks . I have like 10 map hacks, titan cards, and all other great stuff just sitting there All in all thinking back to titanfall just makes me kinda sad. I don't know why it was not a bigger succes. probably because of the limited "grind". They need to add golden guns or something in TF2, just to keep the playerbase big enough.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jul 7, 2015 14:02:59 GMT -5
Pro tip: If you're short on Etheric Light, do Prison of Elders. Level 34 and 35 each guarantee you an Etheric Light on your first run on the character each week. Level 34 also gives you a weapon core, and 35 gives you both a weapon and armor core.
Now I know that sounds incredibly simple, but there are a lot of people here on this forum who just don't do it; that haven't even attempted a level 35. Here's a secret: THEY ARE EASY. Don't get online and not see what other people are up to and start doing bounties (I see a certain famous merchant traveler exploring the Cosmodrome far too often). Find someone else that wants to do PoE and get started, and by the time you get to a point where you need a third person, chances are someone else in one of your friends list will have seen you have room and joined in. You can do the first few rounds of all of them with 2, or even 1 player. They also don't need to take all that long. I just did level 35 in 54 minutes; the NF+32+34+35 combined for under 2 hours. Honestly, you can do it, just go for it.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 14:19:57 GMT -5
Pro tip: If you're short on Etheric Light, do Prison of Elders. Level 34 and 35 each guarantee you an Etheric Light on your first run on the character each week. Level 34 also gives you a weapon core, and 35 gives you both a weapon and armor core. Maybe you can give me a pro solution and send over a few people to play it with lol. I fall into that category. I haven't done a PoE 35 yet. Can't do it, it you aren't level 34 (that has taken me almost a month to get done) And my schedule has been screwed up prior to last week. If you are on weird hours, not much time, big gaps...it's hard to get people and get into it. So you don't do it. That's why IB worked well for me. I could get up early Sunday morning and play solo from 5am to 8am.
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tooros
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Post by tooros on Jul 7, 2015 14:34:58 GMT -5
Still no 35 here either. 34's each week. Just no 35. Never seems to happen.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 7, 2015 14:50:00 GMT -5
iw5000: you are now fully caught up on levels. Since your schedule is lined up with Hebbs really well, you should be able whatever level of PoE you guys feel like to do. PoE 32 should be walk in the park for the armor core. PoE 34 is not difficult for you either and it gives you a weapon core and an EL, plus a chance of getting PoE exotic bounties. Our usual XONE crowd have never done a level 35 PoE yet (which gives you armor core + weapon core + EL + a chance at PoE exotic bounties), probably mainly due to the return on time investment is not that great to fit into the limited time we have. You guys should also consider start doing ToO on Fridays or Mondays (Sundays are also a possibility but it's much more difficult for people to sync up on timing).
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 15:19:02 GMT -5
iw5000: you are now fully caught up on levels. Since your schedule is lined up with Hebbs really well, you should be able whatever level of PoE you guys feel like to do. PoE 32 should be walk in the park for the armor core. PoE 34 is not difficult for you either and it gives you a weapon core and an EL, plus a chance of getting PoE exotic bounties. Our usual XONE crowd have never done a level 35 PoE yet (which gives you armor core + weapon core + EL + a chance at PoE exotic bounties), probably mainly due to the return on time investment is not that great to fit into the limited time we have. You guys should also consider start doing ToO on Fridays or Mondays (Sundays are also a possibility but it's much more difficult for people to sync up on timing). Mostly caught up. I have four non-exotic Lv 42 pieces now for both my Warlock and Hunter. So any combo works. That was a chore by itself. I had to almost spreadsheet it out - which non-exotics to use the EL on. Had to find the perfect combination, that would fit all my exotic choices. Titan is still two pieces away, so still stuck at lv33. I could have finished this one, but elected to use the EL on the shotgun and black hammer. I'll finish this one next IB.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 7, 2015 15:21:37 GMT -5
Just play PoE and you will be set. No need to wait until next IB.
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