Perk Balance Discussion

[Tyzerra]

Since this thread is pretty bare ATM, perhaps set a structure for people to use when suggesting ideas? I'll leave that to you for now and think about how to fine-tune the ideas I currently have

[blues27xx]

I have some ideas for scavenger and excon. To buff scavenger, restore it's ability to replenish lethal (semtex, frags, throwing knives) and tactical grenades (stun, flash, EMP). For pro you replenish 1.25 times as much ammo (guns only, obviously) as normal, and when picking a gun up off the ground you gain one full magazine for it. My other idea for pro would be to either magically cause whatever gun you pickup to have a full magazine, or change the cocking animation upon pickup to a reload animation to go along with my extra mag idea. That means if you're using scav you won't get caught with your pants down when you pick up a gun with no ammo. That's probably too big of a change for the devs to do though, being all lazy and stuff.

My excon buff is pretty standard, just reduce the sprint recharge time by like half, maybe more. It would effectively become marathon, but without actually giving infinite sprint.

[blues27xx]

Works for me, scavenger need everything it can get when it has to compete with perks like SoH, Blind Eye, and, to a lesser extent, recon.

[blues27xx]

Oh, and speaking of recon, I think it should be removed from face off, because having a personal blackbird is nearly game breaking in a 1v1. Maybe remove it from search too, or at least reduce the effect in search.

Other than those few game modes, it's fine.

[blues27xx]

That would give blast shield a reason to exist, and give recon a counter in a 1v1 situation. The only problem is that it means you have to give up assassin which counters portable gaydar.

I think that giving BS immunity to recon would work if you also removed assassin's immunity to portable radar, and gave it to dead silence. That would also make up for BS making DS's recon reduction irrelevant (or maybe just remove that part of DS since we are basically buffing it and giving it to BS).

[mmacola]

My suggestions:

Blue:
Blind Eye is fine. I liked your idea, but I really would find it better if the Javelin did that. You know, like in MW1 and 2 campaign.

Recon: Enemy is warned when tagged. Fix: Don't show enemy position to others in FFA

Scavenger recharges Lethal grenades if the enemy had them and haven't used (like GL's) and Tacticals grenades as well (Flash, Stun, Smoke, EMP). Must be the same lethal/tactical as you had equipped.

Extreme Conditioning: 12.5% Faster recovery speed (3.5 seconds). Pro: 25% (3 seconds)

Sleight of Hand: Fine

Red:
Quickdraw: Fine

Blast Shield: Agree to OP ideas. 65% Blast Resistance, 80% Flash/Stun Immunity and high resistance to the shockwave effect of explosives.

Hardline: Faster killstreak usage seems fairly good. Will leave it just to that.

Assassin: EMP (pointstreak, not grenade) resistance (Map gets scrambled), lose HBS immunity

Overkill: One extra Lethal grenade.


Yellow:
Marksman and Assassin cancel each other. Pro: Increased ADS aim assist? Otherwise just the canceling each other part.

Stalker: Fine

Steady Aim: Fine

Sitrep: Fine

Dead Silence: HBS immunity

[blues27xx]

That also gives dead silence a purpose against sitrep using opponents, just like sitrep has it's own added bonus of seeing equipment.

[linkinito]

I agree with the fact that Assassin Pro and Marksman Pro should cancel each other.

I'd add to Dead Silence Pro:
Enemy don't hear anything when you are capturing an objective

You can have every stealth perk while capturing C, the enemy will still hear "we're losing C" and is acknowledged someone is on C (ie you). So this DS Pro would be quite awesome.
Same thing on bomb-based objectives: the "beeps" when arming/disarming the bombs would be disabled.

[TheHawkNY]

To provide some context, here is a breakdown of players' custom classes from when I pulled the data in mid-May. Data is for PS3 users. "Classes" represents the percentage of the 2,943 classes which use the perk, "Players with a Class" represents the percentage of the 497 players with at least one custom class with the perk.

	Classes	Players with a Class
Blind Eye	19%	47%
Extreme Conditioning	10%	31%
Recon	7%	28%
Scavenger	9%	25%
Sleight of Hand	55%	87%

	Classes	Players with a Class
Assassin	33%	64%
Blast Shield	11%	41%
Hardline	18%	44%
Overkill	4%	17%
Quickdraw	33%	70%

	Classes	Players with a Class
Dead Silence	8%	22%
Marksman	28%	70%
Sitrep	7%	22%
Stalker	38%	75%
Steady Aim	19%	49%

Purely based upon the numbers, Slight of Hand is far and away the most overpowered perk in the game. The fact that the majority of players do not have a class with Blind Eye is a good reminder that there are a lot of stupid people playing this game.

[mmacola]

Jul 20, 2012 13:57:11 GMT -5 TheHawkNY said:

The fact that the majority of players do not have a class with Recon is a good reminder that there are a lot of stupid people playing this game.

Fixed it for ya

[blues27xx]

Jul 20, 2012 13:57:11 GMT -5 TheHawkNY said:

Purely based upon the numbers, Slight of Hand is far and away the most overpowered perk in the game. The fact that the majority of players do not have a class with Blind Eye is a good reminder that there are a lot of stupid people playing this game.

wat

Overused =/= overpowered

[linkinito]

Jul 20, 2012 13:57:11 GMT -5 TheHawkNY said:

Purely based upon the numbers, Slight of Hand is far and away the most overpowered perk in the game. The fact that the majority of players do not have a class with Blind Eye is a good reminder that there are a lot of stupid people playing this game.

People like to go fast, that's why SOH/QD/Stalker are so popular. That doesn't mean they are OP.

[Tyzerra]

Before I post, I want to make it clear that I have experience with just about everything on this game: 26+ days play time, 110,000+ kills and 29/33 guns gold. Please leave feedback on anything of interest!

Blind Eye: Hide from killstreaks (bar UAV), hide from thermal
Pro: 1.6x damage to killstreaks, killstreaks glow red like explosives with SitRep
I feel that Blind Eye is the token Tier1 perk for a stealth class but needs a purpose otherwise. Finding that purpose is difficult though - bro debate needed

Ex Con: 2x sprint duration, 2x sprint regen
Pro: 2x mantling, 2x climbing ladders
I've also been tinkering with a higher sprint speed than 1.5x when Ex Con is used - bro debate needed

Scavenger: Resupply 1 mag (pri+sec), every 2nd bag gives 1 tac grenade
Pro: Start with max ammo, every 2nd bag gives 1 lethal equipment (max 1 claymore/C4 down at one time, when 2nd is deployed 1st fizzles and disappears but does not detonate)
This will encourage movement around the map for ammo. If you want to spam grenades, you have to go out and earn them (plus they're weak anyway)


Blast Shield: 35% of explosive damage
Pro: 20% of flash/stun effects, cannot die to car/barrel explosion at full health (need figures from bro's for specifics)
Perk designed for defence, should be beneficial to LMG users+scout snipers. Also, with Blast Shield on at 100% health, you should not die to cars, barrels, etc. Very unfair whilst on Specialist Bonus

Hardline: Killstreaks reduced by 1,
Pro: Deathstreaks reduced by 1, 2 assists equal 1 point to killstreak,
Really awkward to change this... I'd like it to be completely killstreak-oriented, but how? Bro-debate needed

Assassin: Hide from UAV
Pro: Hide from Advanced UAV, heartbeat sensor, no red name
Gives the AUAV at least 1 purpose to be 'advanced'. Don't agree with 1 perk countering all forms of detection, portable radar needs to be countered elsewhere - bro debate needed

Overkill: Carry 2 primary weapons, move at quickest speed
Pro: Add attachment to 2nd weapon, +1 tac grenade, +1 lethal grenade
Extra grenades worked in Black Ops despite being more powerful, should work in MW3 fine with other Tier2 perks


Marksman: Increased name spotting, built-in Stability proficiency
Pro: Increased hold breath time (for snipers), built-in Breath proficiency (for non-snipers)
Gives useful benefits to M16, MK14, LMG's, as well as scout snipers (who I feel need a slight boost). Can't see it being OP though

Dead Silence: Silent footsteps, reduce recon to 6 secs
Pro: 0% fall damage, hide from portable radar
Liking the portable radar counter, forces players to use Assassin+Dead Silence when before they could use just Assassin. Seems debatable though... Bro debate needed

Well, that was one huge wall of text

[Megaqwerty]

That's a good idea: Hardline is a tough perk to buff while maintaining the spirit of the perk.

shak had the idea of increasing the equivalent of a single assist: it's presently 0.5 kills. Changing this to higher values means assists become marginally more useful, but it's very subtle with smaller values (ex. 0.75 kills per assist).

[Tyzerra]

I don't like splitting up portable radar and HBS between assassin and dead silence. Mainly because they're both passive, so you need to be running both perks to avoid two fairly common means of detection that you aren't alerted to

I see what you're saying, but I really wouldn't agree that the HBS is all that common...

Here's what I was going for: I REALLY liked how in Black Ops Hacker Pro hid you from the Motion Sensor instead of Ghost. It allowed me a way of picking up Ghosts hiding from the UAV as most didn't have Hacker Pro to hide from my Motion Sensor.

I'd like it to be the same with Assassin and Dead Silence if possible... But perhaps an alternative to Dead Silence might be worth looking into...

what if Hardline made killstreaks last 20% longer?

I like the idea, but after thinking about it, I have 5/10 Hardline classes (all Assault package) and it's my go to perk if I don't have Assassin (which occupy the other 5/10 classes). I guess with my slower style of play, Quickdraw isn't a necessity, although it seems to be popular among players here.

What are we going to do with you, Hardline?!

[TheHawkNY]

Jul 20, 2012 13:59:43 GMT -5 blues27xx said:

Jul 20, 2012 13:57:11 GMT -5 TheHawkNY said:

Purely based upon the numbers, Slight of Hand is far and away the most overpowered perk in the game. The fact that the majority of players do not have a class with Blind Eye is a good reminder that there are a lot of stupid people playing this game.

wat

Overused =/= overpowered

I agree. There's more to it than that though. There's a lot more balance between Hardline/Quickdraw/Assassin than there is between Slight of Hand and any of the other Tier 1 perks for the overwhelming majority of players.

The value of Slight of Hand is extremely underrated by the majority of this forum. Many users reload after every kill. Trimming a period of complete vulnerability by 1-2 seconds is a huge asset.

[Megaqwerty]

Overkill idea:
-Move at the average of your two weapons. This is still a mobility buff but it prevents 110% mobility LMGs, riot shields, and, God forbid, Specialist Juggs.
-Free Attachments proficiency. Two attachments on both weapons and the option of some other prof besides Attachments. (The game does support this via hex editing: this would involve updating the Create-a-Class UI).
-Ability to select a secondary so as to have a secondary with two attachments.

Blind Eye:
-Highlighted killstreaks is a great idea. Killstreaks may also be Recon Drone tagged automatically.
-One idea I had was locked on missiles ignoring one flare. This would make Blind Eye launchers that fastest way to kill most killstreaks: presently, it is almost always better to just shoot the gosh darn golly gee whiz thing, AC130s aside. AC130s would still need two missiles due to their extra flare.

Assassin: I've spoken before about Assassin being purely anti-Support. How about...
-UAV Immunity
-Recon Drone Immunity
-AUAV Immunity
-EMP Immunity
-No red name, canceled by Marksman

We can move HBS to DS and PR to Sit Rep. PR on Sit Rep may be too much for SR, but really any perk is fine so long as it ain't Assassin.

The problem with Assassin is that every single detection tool is foiled by it. If you have an HBS, PR, and a UAV, you get nothing: in past games, this required multiple perks to defeat, but here it takes only one and this must change.

Currently, there is nothing, nothing, not even Dead Silence, that defends you from the Recon Drone, as Specialists are very aware of, so that buff should more than compensate for what we just took from it.

Blast Shield has a very clearly defined role and does not need any other effects. Just increase the multipliers so you can eat grenades and the perk will be fine.

Scavenger cannot replenish grenades due to Recon (even despite them being in the same tier), but I think this should get the +1 equipment on spawn, not Overkill as it morely closes matches the legacy role of Scavenger. Additional PRs may be problematic (especially in FO), but everything else should be fine due to the inability to replenish.

Ex Con just needs double regen. Double regen would effectively be Marathon on the 1.75x sprint bonus weapons. Faster ladder climb would be funny as hell to see, so I'd like to see that as well. At the very least, Ex Con should have half ladder recovery.

[TheHawkNY]

Have they given any indication they are even considering making any changes to the core functionality of the Perks as they are described? I'd operate under the assumption that something like HBS immunity will remain with Assassin, because that is in the perk description.

[Megaqwerty]

Jul 20, 2012 14:47:52 GMT -5 Tyzerra said:

What are we going to do with you, Hardline?!

Hardline Pro Pro: Assists count as kills.

lol not op

(Especially not with a riot shield. That you Overkilled to 110% mobility.)

[Marvel4]

Again I see a lot of things that IW will never do...

[Tyzerra]

I think it's safe to say that nearly all of us agree that:
- Ex Con needs a 2x sprint regen
- Scavenger needs to resupply some sort of grenades in some sort of fashion
- Blast Shield multipliers need to be increased
- Assassin needs to counter just a few less things
- Overkill users need to move faster than their slowest weapon

Also liking the reduced flares idea for Blind Eye too. That would really give it some prowess for launcher use, which in turn would help to reduce machine pistol users.

[TheHawkNY]

Jul 20, 2012 14:52:30 GMT -5 Mousey said:

Jul 20, 2012 14:47:52 GMT -5 Tyzerra said:

I see what you're saying, but I really wouldn't agree that the HBS is all that common...

Here's what I was going for: I REALLY liked how in Black Ops Hacker Pro hid you from the Motion Sensor instead of Ghost. It allowed me a way of picking up Ghosts hiding from the UAV as most didn't have Hacker Pro to hide from my Motion Sensor.

I'd like it to be the same with Assassin and Dead Silence if possible... But perhaps an alternative to Dead Silence might be worth looking into...

I definitely notice (and use) Heartbeat sensors a lot in this game. Though I will admit that I do not have data.

Hawkny I know you've taken some samples, did you have anything involving attachments at some point?

The issue with The dead silence/hacker thing in black ops is that the player had to choose between two methods of stealth, which is fine for normal play, but not so much for search and destroy.

In my sample, HBS was on 1% of ARs and 5% of Sniper Rifles. The pool of players was likely weighted more towards those who play Kill Confirmed and TDM.

[Megaqwerty]

I always run HBS on ARs as they have lower attachment needs than all other automatics.

In Dom, Assassin isn't as ubiquitous as it is in TDM/KC and the HBS saves my ass far more than enough to justify the attachment slot. Heart beats let you get some stupid kills on non-Assassins.

[mmacola]

They won't increase sprint regeneration to something as big a 2x faster. Mark Rubin said they wanted to get rid of the "Marathon effect"

And I don't think PR immunity needs to be moved to Sitrep. So, you are the only one able to see it and you are immune? Just one counter? Better have Assassin (You don't know it's there but you're fine) and Sitrep (You know it's there so you can avoid it/destroy or even lure enemies)

[TheHawkNY]

I would give ExCon an improved sprint duration (2.5 or 3x) and slightly buffed recovery speed.

Recon should give you an extra Flash/Stun/EMP grenade. Damage from killstreaks should also tag users.

Scavenger should give you an extra lethal equipment at spawn, not replenish anything extra.

Users firing an unsilenced weapon should not appear on the radar of enemies using Assassin when a CUAV is up.

Increase the Blast Shield multipliers.

Hardline should give an extra point for completing an objective. This does not just buff Hardline, but also encourages and rewards objective play.

I've said this before, and everyone seems to hate it, but Overkill should give you additional pellets on manual action shotguns. megaqwerty, to your recommendation to give the Attachments proficiency for free, I would actually make that you get two proficiencies instead.

[mmacola]

Moving HBS immunity to Dead Silence would create excellent perk combos:

Sitrep Pro is good for tactical soundwhoring, but can be identified by HBS. They are basically immune to equipment though.

Dead Silence is more safe for rushing and finding campers, but has no equipment protection.

[mmacola]

Jul 20, 2012 15:29:01 GMT -5 TheHawkNY said:

I would give ExCon an improved sprint duration (2.5 or 3x)

2.5x seems good enough for most situations it is needed, like rushing the B flag after dying. I suggested 12.5% faster recovery and 25% faster with pro, but I guess this would then recreate the so called "marathon effect" if it had a bigger sprint. Especially with the extra sprint weapons.

[TheHawkNY]

Jul 20, 2012 14:51:31 GMT -5 Megaqwerty said:

Overkill idea:
-Ability to select a secondary so as to have a secondary with two attachments.

No, and you know why. YOU KNOW.

Jul 20, 2012 14:51:31 GMT -5 Megaqwerty said:

Assassin: I've spoken before about Assassin being purely anti-Support. How about...
-Recon Drone Immunity
Currently, there is nothing, nothing, not even Dead Silence, that defends you from the Recon Drone, as Specialists are very aware of, so that buff should more than compensate for what we just took from it.

They listened to everyone's complaints about Ghost, and put in Recon and the Recon Drone as two counters to it. No one uses Recon, and everyone complains endlessly about the Recon Drone, despite the fact that they also complain about the perk it was designed to combat. Also, I believe Blind Eye prevents you from having a red box around you, but you can still be tagged, which is consistent with every other killstreak. Sorry Specialist users, no one cared about your MOAB attempt but you, those are the breaks.

Jul 20, 2012 14:51:31 GMT -5 Megaqwerty said:

Scavenger cannot replenish grenades due to Recon (even despite them being in the same tier)

Truth!

[mmacola]

Jul 20, 2012 15:49:54 GMT -5 Mousey said:

aw cmon, scavenger has to be swept under the rug because a specialist class is OP with it?

What if recon's duration was lowered to 7 seconds and there were more perk counters to it?

What if damaging explosives give the real time directional UAV, while tactical ones just flash a dot once, UAV style.

And it really should tell a player when he is tagged.

Not necessary. Make tacticals grenades (and grenades only) replenish the same way 40mm rounds do: The enemy must have them and not have used. Flash grenades are much, much more hard to come since they are not so used. What most hits me is Stun grenades, given past games high efficiency (they were thrown faster). In the same way, it would be hard to spam frags given the high usage of Semtex.

[mmacola]

Jul 20, 2012 15:58:25 GMT -5 Mousey said:

It would still be nice that if, like every 5 bags or so, you get yours filled regardless if they had it or not.

Incredibly nonviable on S&D =P