Perk Balance Discussion

[mmacola]

Jul 20, 2012 16:05:52 GMT -5 Mousey said:

Recons already incredibly viable in search though :/ it needs a hard counter if anything. Then people can go willynilly with it.

Edit: Hell, what if flashes/stuns just didn't tag people to begin with?

Then recon is the most weak perk evar. You would depend on you grenade launcher, which sucks in this game.

[Morshu]

Considering how weak explosives are in this game, I actually think it might be good of scavenger refilled your explosives again. Only certain stuff shouldn't be able to be refillable like betties, claymores, and certain equipment.

Assassin pro and marksman should definately cancel each other. Recon also needs a boost but I'm unsure what to give it. Maybe make your explosive killstreaks mark enemies?

[mmacola]

Jul 20, 2012 16:13:35 GMT -5 Morshu said:

Considering how weak explosives are in this game, I actually think it might be good of scavenger refilled your explosives again. Only certain stuff shouldn't be able to be refillable like betties, claymores, and certain equipment.

Assassin pro and marksman should definately cancel each other. Recon also needs a boost but I'm unsure what to give it. Maybe make your explosive killstreaks mark enemies?

Excellent idea, really, At least those gosh darn golly gee whiz "spawn protection" guys that suviver my 105mm shell will be easy targets for some time, to my teammates.

[Marvel4]

Jul 20, 2012 16:13:35 GMT -5 Morshu said:

Assassin pro and marksman should definately cancel each other.

No, Marksman is broken. It's like a wallhack.

Also, www.d-e-f-i-n-i-t-e-l-y.com

[mmacola]

That is the most actually 'use the sniper scope' perk ever. Can't see what is wrong with that. People say "use your eyes", so Marksman is there to help =)

[Marvel4]

It's not limited to sniper rifles.

[mmacola]

Jul 20, 2012 16:25:25 GMT -5 Marvel4 said:

It's not limited to sniper rifles.

And there are much more viable perks to anything that isn't a sniper, while the contrary is not true. Sniper + Dead Silence? Sniper + Stalker?

[Lexapro]

Hardline: Assists count as kills towards pointstreak.

[Marvel4]

Jul 20, 2012 16:26:58 GMT -5 Mousey said:

how is it a wallhack?

You can see enemies through smoke, trees and some other objects or at ranges they would otherwise be invisible.

[cmck]

Well I got some ideas for Hardline. Make it call in killstreaks faster and give all of your killstreaks immunity to launchers and bullets while en route to the map. Meaning that attack heli that you called in can't be shot down until actually gets here and the strafe run can't have pot shots taken at it as its turning around. This is on top of its usual effects obviously. Good?

For scavenger what about it resupplying lethals only? That removes the recon problem because frags and semtex aren't ideal for tagging purposes.

Marksman should cancel out assassin to the point that you can see the red crosshairs and name when you are in approximately shotgun range. This mainly prevents snipers playing dead in search or people hiding in think bushes. Not nearly a wallhack buff, just a hide and seek nerf. Also throw in stability and breath, but don't remove them from the profs. list in the weapon select screen, just have them not stack on each other.

Assassin needs its HBS and PR moved to DS. Thermal needs to be moved to BE. Thermal is under used so I don't think it'll be a problem and DS is already a staple on search classes anyway so it only penalizes people in things like tdm. Good?

Blind Eye should get thermal because the name makes me want to give it that. I also liked the idea of all enemy killstreaks being highlighted in red and automatically tagged on the map.

Blast shield I'm good with buffing the multipliers and giving it shock resistance to things like explosions and stealth bombers.

Recon maybe should recon drone tag killstreaks as well permanently. Also throw in killstreaks tagging for you.

Overkill move at speed of weapon pulled out or average of the weapons speed. If you're feeling more generous move at the speed of your fastest weapon even if its not out. Its something extra for the lmgs, riot shield, snipers.

EC could use faster sprint recovery and ladder climbing, I agree.

[pupilofcod]

@tip your medic, liked alot of your ideas can you clarify how merging a perk with a proficiency would work? I get the perk would have prof benefit but would that also mean the prof would stack if it was still on the gun ie 2x impact?

Now on to some perk ideas I though about while reading this thread. Disclaimer: I like the idea of perks and weapons with quirks that add novelty and reason to use something other than B.A.D..

ExCon - if marathon is a no no ...what if it added some crazy multiplier for crouch and prone positions only? Could change some playstyle sinces those positions don't make noise. What if it decreased time to stance change?

Recon - Since it literally means explore gain intel, it should have more effect on assassins. What if recon produced a shimmer or a flash when an assassin users was in your line of sight? Almost like you're some kind of advanced acquity spotter. You still don't get dots and you can't rely on the HBS...but since the only intel on assassin is from sight that could provide a unique nerf to AS snd buff to Recon.

Assassin - I'm for moving some immunities away but what about nerfing where it really hurts....bullet damage, make AS users have a global damage dropoff (or dropoff sooner) that way with the silencer attached it almost feels like the old stealth vs stopping power days. Or to be a bit more kind to AS users start them with reduced health (in core). That way the AS user has to be super-mindful of grenades, cars, barrels streaks, etc. because they will die faster.

Blast Shield - What others said, at full health you should survive all Michael Bay-esque explosions in the game.

Not sure whether it should be blind eye or recon but something should make ALL drone hitboxes larger (looking at you toy chopper).

And about blind eye there was a time when SAM turrents counted toward pro...was that really OP? And as a quirk why not let blind eye users be able to fire stingers without lock against personnel? Or be able to rig your dropped stinger to remote detonate?

Marksman - Love where cmck was going with this...it should make you a "top shot" so add stability, some breath, why not a touch of centerspeed too. That could indirectly bring some guns into relevancy (cough CM901).

Hardline and Overkill - already want the changes mentioned...faster use time for equipment, and better movement speed respectively.

[Lexapro]

Same as weapon balance, let's not try to change too much. 1-2 changes per perk TOPS.

[/b]
[li]Scavenger should at least refill tacticals. Grenade type tacticals are a no brainer. Stuff like the scrambler, radar, trophy system, and tac insert should be refillable but you should only be able to have one active at any one time (placing a new one destroys your old one). Just this one little change increases Scavenger's utility immensely and would instantly make it more popular.
[/li][li]Blind Eye should show where all aerial killstreaks are in the air. Allows you to shoot down UAVs/CUAVs/AUAVs with ruthless efficiency.
[/li][li]Extreme Conditioning should be 2x sprint time, 0.5x sprint cooldown. It's just short of Marathon but still a worthwhile improvement.
[/li][li]Recon is fine for its usage in S&D. Sleight of Hand is obviously also fine.
[/li][/ul]

[/b]
[li]Assassin should not be immune to CUAV or EMP. It's already very good as the ultimate stealth perk, why should it also have these added effects. It effectively makes CUAV useless given how ubiquitous assassin is when it really should be a very useful killstreak.
[/li][li]Overkill Pro allows you 2 proficiencies on your primary. So now you have a huge choice to make: drastically improve your weapon or remain stealthy. Overkill now becomes the "Stopping Power" replacement to keep Assassin from running rampant.
[/li][li]Hardline Pro is improved now that you can refill your tactical grenades (which in my experience lead to the most assists) with Scavenger. You already see a good number of people using it now, it doesn't need any additional buffs.
[/li][li]Quickdraw is also improved with Scavenger allowing you to refill tacticals. See the impact one change can make!
[/li][li]Blast Shield should prevent you from dying from almost any explosion when at full health. Basically the Anti-IMS/Predator/AGM perk. Since Airstrikes are multiple explosions anyways, it won't be as effective against them. A Stealth Bomber is still gonna ruin your day if you're caught out in the open. AC-130s should be too powerful as well.
[/li][/ul]

[/b]
[li]Dead Silence should still be undetectable by Sitrep Pro. Otherwise it's fine.
[/li][li]Steady Aim, Stalker, and Sitrep are all fine.
[/li][li]Marksman should cancel out Assassin's name and red crosshair hiding effects.
[/li][/ul]

[Den]

Repost and refinement from another thread, specifically focusing on Scavenger.

Allow Scavenger to replenish "active" Tactical grenades (Flash, Stun, EMP, Smoke), Lethal grenades (Frag, Semtex, Knife, C4) and Secondary Launchers.
Resupplies are one at a time.
First Tactical is resupplied.
If Tactical is Full, Lethal.
If Lethal is full, then Launcher.
Throwing Knife and Stinger are always resupplied with each bag regardless.

Underbarrel GL is left out as it is essentially a free third weapon. Allow the Masterkey to get ammo because shotguns need all the help they can get.
Deployable Lethal (Claymore, Betty) are not resupplied, but the player is given two on spawn to prevent persistent re-trapping the same area when one enemy dies.

The Jammer and Radar are left out. The player should be limited to one; no refills as the devices have persistent effects while deployed, so discretion and effective placement to keep them alive should be promoted rather than just getting a new one.
The Tactical Insertion needs no resupply for obvious reasons, and the Trophy System may end up abused too easily.

For the sake of effectiveness (it is already seldom used), the Trophy System should be more resilient to bullet damage and could be made to work more than twice.
Perhaps four times, or maybe the ability to be reused if you pick it back up, ready to deploy again X seconds later.

-

Overkill Pro causes the player to move at a minimum of assault rifle speed regardless of the two weapons he is carrying.
If carrying two 100% speed weapons, he gets Speed/Lightweight automatically.

Adopt WaW's idea for Blast Shield.
The player loses a maximum of 90% of his total health from any explosive, allowing him to survive any explosive as long as he is at full health (but only leaving him with 10%).

Marksman Pro gets infinite Hold Breath.
That, or 4x breath recovery. That is to say, four seconds of holding, one second to recover fully (since you need to recover completely before holding again).

[mw2baller]

The movement buffs to overkill are useless. The big problem with overkill is that the MP9 and FMG9 are very good secondaries. The MP9 gives you a very capable general purpose weapon while the FMG9 is great at CQB. Perks like quickdraw and assassin benefit you a LOT more than a slight increase to the strength of your second weapon.

Personally I think overkill should give you unlimited attachments on your primary (obviously acog/rds can't stack and etc.). This gives you a powerful bonus so that can actually compete with assassin and quickdraw.

[TheHawkNY]

Jul 20, 2012 20:54:19 GMT -5 Den said:

The Tactical Insertion needs no resupply for obvious reasons

Why not resupply it? That would be useful. It could just make you spawn at the one most recently placed. Some potential uses:

Replacing when destroyed
Placing one more conservatively on the path to an objective so that if you encounter an enemy and kill them, you can place one closer to the objective, but if you do not survive, you do not respawn too far away
Placing them in opposite corners of a room so enemies can't camp next to it waiting for you to respawn

[mw2baller]

Then why not call the perk lightweight? If the main selling point is that it increases movement speed. Seriously though. All overkill combinations (except riot shield + whatever) consist of a short range weapon and a long range weapon. Every short ranged weapon can be replaced by the fmg9. I guarantee you no FMG9 user has said "this gun sucks at close range". The only class that needs a long range weapon is the shotgun class. The MP9 is more than enough for long range use. If you really are worried about long ranged combat so much, then you could just choose a long ranged primary like the M14 and use the FMG9 as a close range gun.

[cmck]

Even if the MP9 and fmgs aren't nerfed using overkill with a lmg, sniper, or riot shield gives you faster move speed and a close range secondary while the machine pistols only give you close range. All of those weapons need a cqc option and shotguns all need a long range option so perfect match or you could use an smg for a more reliable close range gun that can also handle mid range as well (do that fmgs). Its not a useless buff, but it takes some suboptimal weapon classes to want it.

[Den]

Jul 20, 2012 23:22:55 GMT -5 TheHawkNY said:

Jul 20, 2012 20:54:19 GMT -5 Den said:

The Tactical Insertion needs no resupply for obvious reasons

Why not resupply it? That would be useful. It could just make you spawn at the one most recently placed. Some potential uses:
Replacing when destroyed
Placing one more conservatively on the path to an objective so that if you encounter an enemy and kill them, you can place one closer to the objective, but if you do not survive, you do not respawn too far away
Placing them in opposite corners of a room so enemies can't camp next to it waiting for you to respawn

For the same reason the Radar/Jammer would be left out.
If you put it somewhere the enemy finds it, they take it out or take you out and follow up with a twofer.
Putting it in a safe yet advantageous location is strategically demanding and makes the punishment of poor placement stick.
If you want to change its location, pick the original up instead of "leapfrogging" its placement through resupplied ones overwriting the existing one (after all you can only have one down at a time).
If you put it down, that's where it is.

[MoopusMaximus]

These would never happen.

Perks are completely hard-coded and they can only really change the value of their multipliers.

[cmck]

Jul 21, 2012 1:45:21 GMT -5 MoopusMaximus said:

These would never happen.

Perks are completely hard-coded and they can only really change the value of their multipliers.

Is this true? Say it ain't so. Anyone want to confirm that and kick the perks while they're down.

[Den]

Perks are not hard coded. Few parts are immutable.
Most of their script is modifiable and can be overwritten by new versions of the .gsc files they are within.
Completely new perks can be made and existing ones can be changed.
For example, look for the COD4 mod "Obscurity".

While making dramatic changes would require lots of testing for compatibility / stability issues and the closed systems that are consoles probably having their own extra layer of possible issues, most suggested changes in this thread are not impossible.

[cmck]

Den to the rescue!

[linkinito]

Here's my balance on things:

TIER 1 PERKS
Recon - Fine as is, but duration should be slightly reduced to 8 or 10 seconds. However, any tagged enemy should guarantee an assist as long as he's on the radar. I miss plenty of assists because the guy replenished his health, then got killed by another while he was still on the radar.
Sleight of Hand - Also, fine as is.
Blind Eye - Normal version: Immune to UAV, AUAV, Portable Radar
Pro version - Destroys enemy killstreaks faster (In other words: switching Assassin and Blind Eye, but not their pro versions)
Extreme conditioning - 2.5x sprint duration, 2x sprint regen duration
Pro version - Jump over obstacles faster, 1.2x health regen speed when running
Scavenger - Refills ammo and tactical grenades
Pro version - More starting ammo, refills lethal grenades (for Claymores, Betties and C4, one on the ground at a time)

TIER 2 PERKS
Quickdraw - Fine as is.
Blast Shield - Reduce explosive damage (75% damage reduction) and shellshock effect
Pro version - Nearly completely nullifies (85-90%) the effect of Flash and Concussion grenades (EMP grenades only last for 2-3 seconds).
Hardline - Fine as is, but should be UNUSABLE with Specialist package (except if Hardline is in the 3 perks unlocked), so that avoids the "first kill, first perk". Many use Hardline as a way to get a 4th perk after 1 kill, which is too easy in my opinion.
Assassin - Normal version: Invisible to air support killstreaks
Pro version - Immune to CUAV, EMP, no red name ability (Marksman Pro and Assassin Pro cancel each other)
Pro version requirement goes up from 20 kills to 200 kills with Assassin, with an UAV in the air. It's way too simple to get Assassin Pro.
Overkill - Carry two weapons, and one additional tactical grenade
Pro version - Attachment on second weapon, one additional lethal grenade

TIER 3 PERKS
Marksman - See red name from farther away (but tweaked a little bit so it's not so overpowered, mostly behind cover)
Pro version - 2x hold breath time, you see red names from people who use Assassin Pro like at normal distance
Stalker - Fine as is, but reduced to 0.9x original ADS Stalker speed.
Sitrep - Fine as is. Pro requirement easier to obtain (20-25 destroyed equipments instead of 50).
Steady Aim - Fine as is.
Dead Silence - Fine as is, with added Pro requirement:
Pro version - You don't take any damage from falling, enemy don't hear you when you're taking an objective (taking a flag in Domination, or planting the bomb don't make any beep sound).

[Lexapro]

Then why not have overkill give your primary 2 proficiencies? Imagine:
Assault Rifles + Kick, Extended Mags, and Silencer
SMGs + Kick, Range, and Rapid fire
LMGs + Kick, Silencer, and Thermal
Sniper Rifles + Impact, Focus and whatever it is people use on Sniper Rifles
Shotguns + RANGE, DAMAGE, and Extended Mags
Overkill with Specialist killstreak

Players would love it. You'd be extra deadly from the start, a "Stopping Power" for the new generation. But you have to sacrifice the stealth you've grown so accustomed to taking for granted. I think It's just good enough to make you consider the trade off but not enough to be gamebreaking. It feels like the perfect solution.

[quickbuck]

You're then allowing people to have most of the benefit of Assassin, but have Quick Draw as well, sounds too much to me. Those two should be in the same slot.

[linkinito]

Jul 21, 2012 5:48:58 GMT -5 quickbuck said:

You're then allowing people to have most of the benefit of Assassin, but have Quick Draw as well, sounds too much to me. Those two should be in the same slot.

You can get the benefit of it with Specialist and get both after 2 kills. And i'm putting the UAV immunity besides more useful perks like SOH or Scavenger.

[wwaa]

@ linkinito
> Pro version requirement goes up from 20 kills to 200 kills with Assassin, with an UAV in the air. It's way too simple to get Assassin Pro.

Hehe, well,
that is GOOD on PC, as less people run with Assassin to unlock PRO.
The faster they unlock PRO, the better, then they swap to QD.
On PC most players do not use Assassin at all.

And your idea, that AA class must have BE and Assassin is wrong

> Hardline - Fine as is, but should be UNUSABLE with Specialist package

OMG, you really want to destroy ALL fun we have from MW3 ....

[cmck]

Jul 21, 2012 5:28:59 GMT -5 linkinito said:

Here's my balance on things:

TIER 1 PERKS
Recon - Fine as is, but duration should be slightly reduced to 8 or 10 seconds. However, any tagged enemy should guarantee an assist as long as he's on the radar. I miss plenty of assists because the guy replenished his health, then got killed by another while he was still on the radar.
Sleight of Hand - Also, fine as is.
Blind Eye - Normal version: Immune to UAV, AUAV, Portable Radar
Pro version - Destroys enemy killstreaks faster (In other words: switching Assassin and Blind Eye, but not their pro versions)
Extreme conditioning - 2.5x sprint duration, 2x sprint regen duration
Pro version - Jump over obstacles faster, 1.2x health regen speed when running
Scavenger - Refills ammo and tactical grenades
Pro version - More starting ammo, refills lethal grenades (for Claymores, Betties and C4, one on the ground at a time)

TIER 2 PERKS
Quickdraw - Fine as is.
Blast Shield - Reduce explosive damage (75% damage reduction) and shellshock effect
Pro version - Nearly completely nullifies (85-90%) the effect of Flash and Concussion grenades (EMP grenades only last for 2-3 seconds).
Hardline - Fine as is, but should be UNUSABLE with Specialist package (except if Hardline is in the 3 perks unlocked), so that avoids the "first kill, first perk". Many use Hardline as a way to get a 4th perk after 1 kill, which is too easy in my opinion.
Assassin - Normal version: Invisible to air support killstreaks
Pro version - Immune to CUAV, EMP, no red name ability (Marksman Pro and Assassin Pro cancel each other)
Pro version requirement goes up from 20 kills to 200 kills with Assassin, with an UAV in the air. It's way too simple to get Assassin Pro.
Overkill - Carry two weapons, and one additional tactical grenade
Pro version - Attachment on second weapon, one additional lethal grenade

TIER 3 PERKS
Marksman - See red name from farther away (but tweaked a little bit so it's not so overpowered, mostly behind cover)
Pro version - 2x hold breath time, you see red names from people who use Assassin Pro like at normal distance
Stalker - Fine as is, but reduced to 0.9x original ADS Stalker speed.
Sitrep - Fine as is. Pro requirement easier to obtain (20-25 destroyed equipments instead of 50).
Steady Aim - Fine as is.
Dead Silence - Fine as is, with added Pro requirement:
Pro version - You don't take any damage from falling, enemy don't hear you when you're taking an objective (taking a flag in Domination, or planting the bomb don't make any beep sound).

Don't change the challenges to get them pro. There is no point now that the game has been out this long. So many people have already stopped the prestige grind that it'll lead to the few noobs and new accounts going around to be at a bigger disadvantage. It won't make assassin pro less popular or ds pro harder to get.

You nerfed hardline, not buffed it. The situation you showed for specialist hardline isn't even the most efficient. You aren't getting a 4th perk just 3 good perks and a non perk after your first kill. Since hardline doesn't contribute to you in any way its best to not use it or earn it at 6 kills so it lowers specialist bonus.

Your overkill buff isn't enough to compete with QD, assassin, or BS. The one extra grenade isn't going to make enough difference when the machine pistols are so good.

Stalker doesn't need to be slower. Its fine the way it is.

Your tier 1 is fine, but I have a feeling search isn't going to like giving up recon for uav and PR immunity. It'll also more than likely just replace Soh as the overly popular tier 1 perk that everybody needs to have.

[bigal093]

Two things are really sticking out to me. First off I love the OPs idea about hardline. To me it adds a whole new aspect to the perk, still retains the spirit of it, but it puts it onto the level of Quickdraw and Assasain usefulness wise.

Second, i think the best idea, that we can almost all agree on, is Heartbeat and PR invisibility needs to go to dead silence. I think its perfectly fair, and balances both perks by one change.

BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING[/b]. i will fucking SNAP if it is not changed(and i know it won't be), please for the love of God, i will never stop saying it, the only goddamn thing i really want IW to change, the vein of my existence.......Quickdraw on Sniper Rifles!!! who thought this was a good idea?!?!?!? seriously! If you can railgun me without quickdraw, good for you, i give you respect. that takes skill. But quickdraw one every single goddamn bolt action.....smh

[cmck]

^I'll agree to that.

(Would anyone consider supporting the idea that snipers can't hipfire? The 50 cal is annoying and I hate being no scoped by a bolt from knifing distance. Its fucking ridiculous.)