wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Oct 16, 2014 13:59:37 GMT -5
Destiny does have a bit more room to deal with modded controller, due to the crit shot focus.
(Just brainstorm here) The goal is to make controlled manual shots do more DPS than modded controller auto shots.
How? I don't know enough about modded controller to give meaningful suggestions. One idea: make headshots have a much more unforgiving hitbox but with huge multiplier, vs. neck and upper body shots which are still crit hits but less damage, vs. body shots that has even less damage.
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 16, 2014 14:03:23 GMT -5
Everyone and their mother has one now. They're called scuf. I'm at work so I didn't give it an indepth analysis, but all I notice about scufs is the differing R3/L3 heights, gripping, and directional disc. Am I missing something? Don't forget extra buttons for faster button pressing combos.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Oct 16, 2014 14:14:58 GMT -5
Everyone and their mother has one now. They're called scuf. I'm at work so I didn't give it an indepth analysis, but all I notice about scufs is the differing R3/L3 heights, gripping, and directional disc. Am I missing something? You're not missing anything. Scuf doesn't offer a rapid fire mod, only trigger stops that can be adjusted to stop the trigger at the exact point a weapon would fire, saving you from using a full trigger pull and theoretically increasing your ROF with semi-autos (which doesn't have any application in Destiny anyway since the ROFs are capped so low). They seemed extremely pointless and the firing trigger point is not consistent between different games meaning you'd have to adjust them any time you switched from CoD to Halo to BF to whatever so I opted to skip them on mine. The biggest difference is having the paddles on back to save you from having to move a finger off the thumbstick to reload, jump, melee, etc, which is nothing that couldn't be done with a claw grip anyway. Basically you get the benefits of clawing without the awkward hand positioning which for me leads to discomfort after a while. I'm sure there are people out there who somehow think that's cheating, but whatever. I don't see how that's any different than having an HDTV instead of standard or a gaming headset instead of regular speakers. You still have to physically press all the buttons so I see no issue with it. Rapid fire is a different story since the controller is actually doing all the button pressing for you automatically.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Oct 16, 2014 14:19:53 GMT -5
When I think of a modded controler, I think of that.... one that say, you push the trigger once, but the controller makes the trigger fire... 10 times per touch (just as an example)
A controller with extra grip and different different hights might be considered cheating, I guess. I don't consider it.
EDIT: unless I get my butt kicked by someone using it, then yea... they're filthy dirty cheaters who need to be sterilized. This might be my new excuse.. before it was lag or bad internet connection... now it's because the others are using modded controlers
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malgato
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Post by malgato on Oct 16, 2014 14:49:46 GMT -5
When I call modded controllers cheating, I am referring to the auto fire feature for semi auto weapons. It is doing the work for you. I agree that a reconfiguration of buttons is different, although it does provide an advantage.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Oct 16, 2014 15:15:52 GMT -5
What I'd love to figure out is why devs don't give us the option of remapping controls in console games more often. I feel like this was fairly common back in the SNES days and obviously PCs have had this forever, so it's not like it's some new radical idea. So many games and people could benefit from this, and surely it can't be that difficult to implement. Same thing with colorblind options--not that I'm personally affected by it, but I know a lot of people are. Just seems like this stuff is totally off the radar for devs which I don't really understand when there are complaints about not having these options popping up all the time.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Oct 16, 2014 15:24:59 GMT -5
I consider the paddles, and reconfigurable buttons to be "cheating" mods. They clearly add functionality that is not available on stock setups. I would love to have melee mapped to B in destiny, but Bungie does not offer a controller layout that includes that. A Peripheral that adds functionality is out of bounds in my book. Other things that have been mentioned such as an HDTV or gaming headphones do not add functionality but rather emphasize what functionality is already there.
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Post by GodMars on Oct 16, 2014 15:30:21 GMT -5
Other things that have been mentioned such as an HDTV or gaming headphones do not add functionality but rather emphasize what functionality is already there. The exact same thing can be said for paddles and extended analog sticks.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Oct 16, 2014 15:39:09 GMT -5
Other things that have been mentioned such as an HDTV or gaming headphones do not add functionality but rather emphasize what functionality is already there. The exact same thing can be said for paddles and extended analog sticks. Adding extensions to sticks is okay because the sticks are already there and are being modified, not added. They emphasize functionality that is already there (aiming). Paddles however are an addition of functionality. They add a different place to interface with the game. If they had things such as face button extenders, they would be ok as they ae only modifying the existing functionality rather than adding to it.
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 16, 2014 15:41:05 GMT -5
If it's not the stock controller that came WITH the game, you are using a some form of a PE (performance enhancer). Illegal or not illegal? It's all just shades of grey once you move up. Type of TV used is a bad analogy. The Xbox/PS system doesn't come with a TV. They leave that up to the user. So there is no 'stock' device to be used, so there is comparison (same deal with audio, as the game doesn't ship with speakers, they leave that to you). And if you try to make the HD TV analogy, it doesn't work, seeing how we are already in the HD age, ...HD would be considered normal. There are no advantages with it, whether you are using a 70" HDTV or a 31" HDMonitor. Both of those have their pros and cons. If you have less, that's your problem. The games aren't made for 1980 TV's. If this is you below, You shouldn't be gaming. Or at least whining about competitive disadvantages. Not our problem.
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Post by GodMars on Oct 16, 2014 15:51:20 GMT -5
Some TVs are better than others when it comes to latency. You're at a disadvantage if you have a TV with a higher latency and/or one without a "game" mode. I bought my specifically with gaming in mind.
My Astros also give me a distinct advantage over people using external speakers, and in some cases, other "name" headsets. I regularly am asked by the guys I play with "how did you hear that?"
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 16, 2014 16:05:33 GMT -5
Some TVs are better than others when it comes to latency. You're at a disadvantage if you have a TV with a higher latency and/or one without a "game" mode. I bought my specifically with gaming in mind. My Astros also give me a distinct advantage over people using external speakers, and in some cases, other "name" headsets. I regularly am asked by the guys I play with "how did you hear that?" right. But unlike controllers, the console systems leave the above two items up to the players.
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Post by GodMars on Oct 16, 2014 16:38:24 GMT -5
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't Scuf controllers allowed in MLG tournaments?
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Oct 16, 2014 16:51:00 GMT -5
Back when I was into MLG that shit wouldn't fly. That's why everyone switched to bumper jumper.
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Post by iamthehater on Oct 16, 2014 19:34:25 GMT -5
Scuff's are allowed in MLG. That's why every major MLG team is sponcered by Scuff & also has a team controller (custom color layout).
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Post by GodMars on Oct 16, 2014 20:51:57 GMT -5
Scuff's are allowed in MLG. That's why every major MLG team is sponcered by Scuff & also has a team controller (custom color layout). Well, there you have it. Paddles aren't cheating.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Oct 16, 2014 21:06:24 GMT -5
Scuff's are allowed in MLG. That's why every major MLG team is sponcered by Scuff & also has a team controller (custom color layout). Well, there you have it. Paddles aren't cheating. If you think MLG gets to determine what is and isn't cheating then...
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Post by GodMars on Oct 16, 2014 21:42:12 GMT -5
Well, there you have it. Paddles aren't cheating. If you think MLG gets to determine what is and isn't cheating then... Dollars to donuts Activision and the CoD devs don't either.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Oct 16, 2014 22:06:02 GMT -5
I consider the paddles, and reconfigurable buttons to be "cheating" mods. They clearly add functionality that is not available on stock setups. I would love to have melee mapped to B in destiny, but Bungie does not offer a controller layout that includes that. A Peripheral that adds functionality is out of bounds in my book. Other things that have been mentioned such as an HDTV or gaming headphones do not add functionality but rather emphasize what functionality is already there. Paddles don't add any functionality that I can't get by using a claw grip. Is claw cheating too?
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malgato
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Post by malgato on Oct 16, 2014 22:17:26 GMT -5
I consider the paddles, and reconfigurable buttons to be "cheating" mods. They clearly add functionality that is not available on stock setups. I would love to have melee mapped to B in destiny, but Bungie does not offer a controller layout that includes that. A Peripheral that adds functionality is out of bounds in my book. Other things that have been mentioned such as an HDTV or gaming headphones do not add functionality but rather emphasize what functionality is already there. Paddles don't add any functionality that I can't get by using a claw grip. Is claw cheating too? Yes. Nerf Hebb. His claw hand is OP.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Oct 16, 2014 22:17:53 GMT -5
I consider the paddles, and reconfigurable buttons to be "cheating" mods. They clearly add functionality that is not available on stock setups. I would love to have melee mapped to B in destiny, but Bungie does not offer a controller layout that includes that. A Peripheral that adds functionality is out of bounds in my book. Other things that have been mentioned such as an HDTV or gaming headphones do not add functionality but rather emphasize what functionality is already there. Paddles don't add any functionality that I can't get by using a claw grip. Is claw cheating too? My definition of functionality has to do with physically increasing the amount of possible ways to press a button. On the stock controller, there is only 1 set of face buttons. The paddles add a set of buttons that do the work of the face buttons. This is adding functions to the controller. To use a claw grip you aren't adding functionality. The function of the controller is the same. You changing the way that you operate this function. This is why extended sticks are ok, using them changes how you operate functions that already exist. You aren't adding functions.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Oct 16, 2014 22:29:58 GMT -5
If you think MLG gets to determine what is and isn't cheating then... Dollars to donuts Activision and the CoD devs don't either. Another thing to think about regarding MLG determining what is and isn't allowed you have to think about their intentions. When they ban/allow something, what is their reasoning? Often they will say something regarding "fair" or "advantage". So if they are concerned with the availablily of the advantage they ban it. But what happens when it is readily available on the market and everyone can buy that advantage? Doesn't make it unfair anymore, so why ban it? And if everyone is using it in game, the advantage is gone. And then you obviously have the sponsorship intentions which we won't even get into.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Oct 16, 2014 22:43:26 GMT -5
I consider the paddles, and reconfigurable buttons to be "cheating" mods. They clearly add functionality that is not available on stock setups. I would love to have melee mapped to B in destiny, but Bungie does not offer a controller layout that includes that. A Peripheral that adds functionality is out of bounds in my book. Other things that have been mentioned such as an HDTV or gaming headphones do not add functionality but rather emphasize what functionality is already there. Paddles don't add any functionality that I can't get by using a claw grip. Is claw cheating too? This is like saying when competing in the high jump, adding springs to the bottom of my shoes is okay because it doesn't add any height gain that I couldn't get with the Fosbury flop.
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Post by GodMars on Oct 16, 2014 23:27:12 GMT -5
Can't sleep so I did a little poking around. Scuf sure seems to have a pretty crappy reputation in terms of quality control and customer service.
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Post by ChloeB42 (Alexcalibur42) on Oct 16, 2014 23:51:35 GMT -5
If devs just added mapping in their games instead of giving us these stupid preconfigured layouts people wouldn't have to add all this shit to make it functional. On top of that it's completely idiotic to say any remapping or paddles or anything that alters controllers is cheating. You know why the layout is called N0M4D in CoD? Because this guy wouldn't even be able to play if it weren't for different layouts and modded controllers.
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n1gh7
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Post by n1gh7 on Oct 17, 2014 0:02:24 GMT -5
He sure ain't adding functionality through.
But yes, please, re-mappable buttons.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Oct 17, 2014 0:21:23 GMT -5
I'm not of the opinion that paddles or such are cheating. Frankly I think that face buttons on controllers are a throwback due to tradition, the desire to put all the controls on the front so it's more approachable to noobs and casuals, and such. Generally however... face buttons combined with two thumbsticks is bad design, however. It made sense back when we just had a dpad or a single stick, but these days the controller design it-self is a hindrance to gaming. As far as I'm concerned claw grip and paddles are both just a means of overcoming bad design.
As for the springs/Fosbury flop analogy, I don't buy it. If the springs add height then you could combine them with the flop and get even more height. They are clearly performance enhancing. Paddles don't do that. Paddles simply allow you to overcome a design limitation without having to use a claw grip which can be painful and uncomfortable for some people. The Fosbury flop isn't designed to overcome the limitations of an arbitrary piece of equipment, it's simply an efficient athletic maneuver. There's nothing athletically impressive about claw grip, it's just a person literally contorting their hand to manipulate a controller the way they want to.
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Post by psychlon on Oct 17, 2014 3:40:55 GMT -5
Gaming gear is cheating? It's a progession of a limited design and there for anyone to use it. Voice chat is more cheating than any of that gear.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Oct 17, 2014 7:35:18 GMT -5
I'm not of the opinion that paddles or such are cheating. Frankly I think that face buttons on controllers are a throwback due to tradition, the desire to put all the controls on the front so it's more approachable to noobs and casuals, and such. Generally however... face buttons combined with two thumbsticks is bad design, however. It made sense back when we just had a dpad or a single stick, but these days the controller design it-self is a hindrance to gaming. As far as I'm concerned claw grip and paddles are both just a means of overcoming bad design. As for the springs/Fosbury flop analogy, I don't buy it. If the springs add height then you could combine them with the flop and get even more height. They are clearly performance enhancing. Paddles don't do that. Paddles simply allow you to overcome a design limitation without having to use a claw grip which can be painful and uncomfortable for some people. The Fosbury flop isn't designed to overcome the limitations of an arbitrary piece of equipment, it's simply an efficient athletic maneuver. There's nothing athletically impressive about claw grip, it's just a person literally contorting their hand to manipulate a controller the way they want to. Pretty much exactly this. I didn't buy a Scuf to enhance anything. I bought it so I didn't have to contort my hand to an uncomfortable position to be able to press face buttons and aim at the same time. And because I thought it looked cool . If that makes me a cheater, then whatever, I'm a cheater, and too each their own as far as that interpretation goes.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Oct 17, 2014 9:54:00 GMT -5
To be my own devil's advocate one could argue that controller in general for use in an FPS are a design flaw of consoles and a throwback compared to mouse input and thus something like a xim is totally fine. After all it merely simulates mouse control and doesn't actually let you do anything that couldn't, theoretically be done with a controller.
Personally I think that there is a line that can be drawn here, and I feel like something like that crosses it. I don't have time to fully explore why right now, but it's an interesting topic to see where people draw the line in their opinion and why. To me XIM mice on console and "turbo" buttons that pulse the input to give you rapid fire on semi auto weapons are cheaty. They aren't as bad as full blown hacking IMO, but they are a bit cheaty mccheaterson and kind of a cheap way to inflate one's performance. I also don't care if someone does it. Online play is not a tournament MLG skill-o-meter dick measuring contest... it's just online gaming. If somebody gets a bit of an edge with something like that then oh well... whatever. I'll deal with it. If they are hacking the game to get wallhacks or invulnerability or some BS, though... seriously fuck those motherfucking fuckers and the fucking donkeys they rode in on... "Hackers" in the modern sense are a plague on humanity, the games industry, and the internet in general. "Anonymous" can go eat a bag of goddamn dicks I hope those assholes get caught and raped in prison because I'm tired of their shit... Sorry... I'm not usually so angry but it pisses me off. Once upon a time hacking was all about learning interesting systems and what was possible and exploring that. The early history of hacking is fascinating and full of brilliant people who were not total douchebags. These days... not so much... [/rant] (sorry)
Anyway, lost my train of thought there.
As for PC, by comparison... I think that's much more of the Wild West when it comes to hardware and software. I do think that finding ways to make a game play it-self for you are cheating, (a problem often encountered in MMO's) but I don't consider macros in general to be cheating. For example I use an eject macro in Titanfall because I find hitting the use button three times to eject to not only be slow, but unreliable, and I like being able to use the same button to eject whether I've been doomed yet or not. I don't consider it cheating because on PC literally anybody can make a macro for it even if they don't have macro support on their mouse like I do. You can just use Autohotkey. Many games even have built in macro support. But using an aimbot or something like that is clearly cheating.
(In the current state of affairs on console I would probably consider macros cheating if used to do something like achieve perfect reloads every time in Gears of War or something, but might not if used in another way. I'm unsure whether I'd consider the same TF macro cheating on console vs PC... possibly. But then I haven't played TF on console so I don't have a feel for how much of an advantage it would give you. I suspect it would be a pretty fair advantage though since it lets you eject much quicker and avoid being executed, especially if other pilots aren't expecting it and think they are going to get a free execution on you just because they doomed you.)
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