Thoughts on Destiny

[wings]

The PvP content is there for a refuge for Halo fans. There is obviously a huge market with gimmicky crap because COD is an exemplar of this and it sells bucket loads so that shouldn't be a problem with COD players.

[psychlon]

Oct 5, 2014 16:33:36 GMT -5 iw5000 said:

Sept 28, 2014 14:16:12 GMT -5 timeitself said:

Despite trying to be, Destiny isn't a MMO. IT completely screws over the pacing and difficulty. Just playing the story means you'll be under leveled. Stop and play PvP for a while and you'll be over leveled and there goes some of the fun. .

It's not just about being over leveled....the PvP is basically garbage. The PvP is a improperly thought out system that tries to integrate itself with the PvE at the expense of fair/balanced/solid gameplay. It's basically a FPS'er that is targeted to the squealing ten year old boys who likes overpowered explosions as well as gimmicky crap like ninja sword swinging sequences that speed up your player character animation to 1,500 mph. What type of bullsh1t is that? The more you play the PvP, the more you see how bad it is. People talk about rating the game badly....IMHO, Bungie is getting a free pass for this sorry excuse for a FPS. No amount of low rating would do this justice.

PvP has to suffer that People have the choice to participate or not, regardless of their level/ equipment etc. . 

1. Class differences = can they be countered by any other class or is a class currently overpowered in PvP?
2. Gear differences = going in with a common weapon and no modifiers on any gear, there seems to be a significant disadvantage vs. someone wearing a fully upgraded exotic weapon + gear with modifiers to enhance the weapon even further. Should these advantages be taken away or should there be a "legendary/ exotic"-bracket to keep people with this kind of equipment to themselves?
3. Stat differences = I think anyone wanting to participate in a competitive environment should consider getting deeper than just the surface as understanding which stat is more important does make a difference in a 1 vs. 1 situation. Having a high rate of fire vs. a very impact let's you bullet spray the entire building while not hitting the enemy a single time, on the other hand someone with a shotgun will just kill you with a well placed shot above your shoulders. 
4. Connection differences = I remember in CoD and BF to be able to see my connection rate, is there a way to see/ unhide something similar in Destiny? Especially in Shooters, having a worse connection than your opponent does take away the surprise moment and feeling continuously 1-2 sec. behind isn't adding to the fun.
5. Skill differences = Class as well as Map/ Game knowledge does make in some games the main difference between players. Knowing which way people frequently travel and or the shortest way between point A and point B as well as potential spawning rules of the game can make for a serious advantage over other players. While CoD (when I played it) feartured a random spawn ideology (which would spawn you at times in the middle of the enemy), BF featured a objective based spawn rule. Therefore you could chose to spawn at location A/B/C/D if you were holding the objective and or you'd start at your team camp (not in all maps) and therefore it was possible to completely lock another team in their positions. 


In terms of FPS, I somehow miss AAO (Americas Army Operation). A very limited choice of weapon/ equipment but it seemed much more about the person behind rather than which upgrade his weapon has or not has. 

[iw5000]

Oct 5, 2014 17:03:40 GMT -5 wings said:

The PvP content is there for a refuge for Halo fans. There is obviously a huge market with gimmicky crap because COD is an exemplar of this and it sells bucket loads so that shouldn't be a problem with COD players.

Have you actually played Destiny PvP? Maybe I am not reading your comment correctly, but you are way off the mark.

CoD has a lot of gimmickry stuff in it's MP. Camos, guns, DLC guns, and other things to waste one's time trying to get too. But for the most part, it doesn't really ever affect actual gameplay.

Destiny's MP is so full of ridiculous gimmicks, it's mind boggling.

[markopolo]

Oct 4, 2014 2:18:32 GMT -5 wings said:

Try and get one of each element for your weapons as these help out massively if you get to do the weekly heroic strikes as the enemies may resist or be weaker to a different element that in standard play. I tend to find void damage the most flexible for some reason.

I tend to mainly use Autorifles... yet I have never found an autorifle that shoots anything other than the default damage type. I do have a LMG that's fire (I think) and a pulse rifle that I never use that's cold though.

is there an autorifle that does?

[iw5000]

Oct 6, 2014 8:31:41 GMT -5 markopolo said:

Oct 4, 2014 2:18:32 GMT -5 wings said:

Try and get one of each element for your weapons as these help out massively if you get to do the weekly heroic strikes as the enemies may resist or be weaker to a different element that in standard play. I tend to find void damage the most flexible for some reason.

I tend to mainly use Autorifles... yet I have never found an autorifle that shoots anything other than the default damage type. I do have a LMG that's fire (I think) and a pulse rifle that I never use that's cold though.

is there an autorifle that does?

Just keep grinding. There are some.

[markopolo]

Alright....

I haven't left the cosmodrome yet... I'm sure there are on the moon or other places.

[wings]

Oct 6, 2014 7:58:56 GMT -5 iw5000 said:

Oct 5, 2014 17:03:40 GMT -5 wings said:

The PvP content is there for a refuge for Halo fans. There is obviously a huge market with gimmicky crap because COD is an exemplar of this and it sells bucket loads so that shouldn't be a problem with COD players.

Have you actually played Destiny PvP? Maybe I am not reading your comment correctly, but you are way off the mark.

CoD has a lot of gimmickry stuff in it's MP. Camos, guns, DLC guns, and other things to waste one's time trying to get too. But for the most part, it doesn't really ever affect actual gameplay.

Destiny's MP is so full of ridiculous gimmicks, it's mind boggling.

Yes I have and I am going to have to get used to it because I got the exotic weapon bounty for the Invection shotgun. How would the game be received if Bungie did not do a PvP section at all? It may be a case where developers feel obliged to have a competitive multiplayer section as I recently played NFS: Hot Pursuit and its multiplayer section was really bad. In the absense of split screen, this usually means the death of replay value. Perhaps the Crucible should have been Iron Banner from the start but with level criteria, like 3arc did with Boot Camp in World at War. Also, I find different games better for different game modes so may be it's me.

I'd probably include perks and streaks as gimmicks for COD really. A lot of them are just unnecessary and are often there to circumvent 'skill', and that could be extended to the mini map and killcams too. This game's focus is on PvE and would probably attract players from aRPGs, like Borderlands, rather than players who mainly play COD and Halo. Plus it looks like military shooters are taking a backseat in popularity, making games with FPS elements with special power ups etc more acceptable I guess.

[iw5000]

I have no clue how the game would be received with no PvP? I guess badly. But with that, I had no clue the PvP was going to go in the direction of the game becoming "Mario Cart Multiplayer", with ridiculousness at every turn. I find very little skill in this game, far less than CoD, and Bungie pretty much catering to the squealing ten year boy market with the PvP.

I understand the focus in PvE....but must Bungie link the PvE so much, that it wrecks PvP?

[wings]

There's probably more skill in Destiny than COD since weapon choice isn't basically made up for you and the mini map, whilst it exists, does not give pinpoint direction to enemy locations. And then there is a big emphasis on headshots unlike the no recoil insta death guns in COD. If you care for skill that much why don't you play Counter Strike though?

[psychlon]

I think from a learning experience it may be better to split PvP mainly in two sections. One which is basically iron banner and the other where the only thing you take over is your class choice (it is buffed to max) = taking away gear differences (including modifier) and level gaps in the process. As soon as you feel comfortable on these maps and or with your class + you gained some gear, you can go all out in the iron banner mode. You can easily steer this by itemization = iron banner gives away special titles/ weapon skins etc. .

As for CoD... for a franchise where over several years, the most you had to learn was how to quick scope, I think this comparison is going a bit too far. Let's give bungie some time to analyze what they've got and make changes accordingly.

[iw5000]

Oct 6, 2014 9:29:12 GMT -5 wings said:

There's probably more skill in Destiny than COD since weapon choice isn't basically made up for you and the mini map, whilst it exists, does not give pinpoint direction to enemy locations. And then there is a big emphasis on headshots unlike the no recoil insta death guns in COD. If you care for skill that much why don't you play Counter Strike though?

You don't need to aim for the head when using a Super. CoD also doesn't allow players who have X+days played over opponents, to have superior equipment, guns, perks and other advantages, as well as nothing remotely approaching a 'God' gun like the VexMythoclass. So let's please hold off a bit with any discussion that involves the two words of "Destiny & Skill". No one wants to hear "I am better, more skilled", when it's most about 'More time played"

Where's the 'skill' here in the video below? Serious question there? There's no 'skilled' headshotting going on. Half the time this guy is just hipfiring with 2 bullet kills, annihilating opponents who stand no chance. I am going 15 to 20 kills now (in control), winning a fair amount using a subpar Gallagher(?) 220 full auto. Give me an overpowered garbage gun like the Mytho, and I'll be stomping these Mario cart playing clowns left and right too. Does that make me more skilled?

btw...radar is always on in Destiny. Unlike CoD. So let's not go there. From my understanding you can crouch to hide yourself, but will still be 'radar swept' every three seconds. And while it might not pinpoint, the simple lanes/corriders of Destiny pretty much make you stand out like a billboard coming at an opponent.

[hebbnh]

The whole time played thing is extremely overblown. The Vex Mythoclast is the only thing time played wise so far that is game breaking, and that's a completely random drop on hard mode raid only which very few people have. Using that as your example is cherry-picking to the absolute highest degree. The SUROS is great but there are other low ROF ARs that can do well also, even low level ones, and the SUROS didn't require some ungodly amount of time played anyway. Arguing that more time played = insta-win is ridiculous except for that one example.

CoD absolutely allows (or allowed, I haven't kept up with it much since MW3) players to have better guns, equipment, and perks for playing more. Better guns might be debatable, but better equipment and perks for sure (MW2 stinger for AA and cold blooded unlocking somewhere in the 30s, pro perk grinding, had to unlock killstreaks by leveling, and tons more examples). That's why prestiging kinda sucked for a while every time you did it. Maybe that's changed now, I have no idea, but the point remains. Personally I found CoD's radar (and ability to stay off radar with cold blooded/silencers) much more useful than the always on radar in Destiny. UAVs were so common it might as well have been always on anyway.

[psychlon]

not trying to convince you here but

OP weapon do exist.... even in CoD

take it with a grain of salt.... not trying to defend that this happening is right.

[iw5000]

You exaggerated what I said, doing the straw man thing. I never made the argument that it's an 'insta-win' if you have more hours played. A person with less time can still win. I said it's "mostly" about time played. And I stand by that. Someone that has three days played is going to have a huge advantage over someone less than that. And please, it's not about a single gun like the SUROS. That's a great example, yes. So is the recent Vex (how many example do we need?), but it's also about plenty of other guns, as well as the sub class perks. too.

It's something as simple as jumping. This might be exaggeration for effect, but it shows what I mean. I took my level 8 character into Crucible and it wasn't even playable. Something as simple as jumping couldn't be done to hit quick moves. That does come fairly quickly in the leveling process, but you still can't compare the time element with CoD. Especially the recent version of Ghosts. It has changed. Five to six hours played and you could pretty much have whatever perk you needed or attachment unlocked. Fair. Destiny? I'm approaching two days on this game (48 hours) and still am not even remotely close to finishing both subclasses. Night and day difference.

It's not like I am not playing this game. I pretty much did nothing but Crucible all weekend. I played close to thirty plus games just in the past two days.

[wittyscorpion]

To be fair: past CoD provide a good leveling playing ground. It does not take long to prestige once and after that you get everything. BO2 is an exception but if you don't want to grind you can still prestige once and pratically unlock everything "competitive".

CoD AW is going to be the first in the series that will have a loot like system. It is possible now that players with more hour played can get better version of the weapons. It remains to be seen how far SH is going to push in that direction.

Titanfall proves that OPness can be introduced into the game without breaking it, through Burn Cards. No stats are publicly visible, so the fans of the game play it purely for the enjoyment. Compared to CoD and current player level of Destiny, it is a cult favorite. However, the fans are having a lot of fun playing it.

This brings my final thoughts on this topic: be it CoD, Titanfall, or Desstiny, skills and competitiveness are relative due to the tradeoff with "fun". It is counter productive to argue which one is more skill based, because lovers and haters of the game play are going to say the opposite.

IMHO: we should discuss whether Destiny Crucible is fun for you. Yes or no, and why. The general tone I saw on the board is that the majority of the bros here seem to say no on this question, regardless high level or low level, have OP weapon or not, CoD background or Halo background.

I am trying to see why:

1) Is it because you can't do as well in this game relative to others? I doubt this is the main reason because there are games out there with steep learning curve at the beginning (e.g. Titanfall) and that did not stop players from having fun despite the initial suckiness

2) Is it because of the longer TTK?

3) Is it because of the lack of thrill of killing? That would be counter intuitive to my beta impressions because as I enjoy the thrill significantly more than CoD, for most kills I feel that I truly earned it, not through some cheap tactics

4) Is it because PvE is much more attractive than PvP so even though you think PvP is alright, you would prefer to play PvE nonetheless?

Discuss.

[psychlon]

I wouldn't know that you have to unlock positioning in CoD and therefor I don't understand how you can possibly compare the two games in that aspect. In both games you have guns which are better and worse as well as people triumphing over others by spending more time in the game playing and on top of that, CoD even does have clan preference so that you can be sure the other team certainly is in the same voice chat coordinating their efforts.

If the base concept of leveling your character to unlock skills/ movement doesn't apply and random loot luck to get a "good" gun then maybe this isn't the PvP you've been looking for, status today.

However I have to say that I am surprised that (considering iron banner) it is not possible to get raid legendary equivalent equipment via PvP, this being a shooter and such.

[iw5000]

Witty. Discussing fun was kind of my point.I can have fun even in a Mario Cart'esque FPS'er like Destiny. With it's ridiculous weapons, explosions, and all over the board TTK's. I can have fun with that. I can even have fun with Bungie going to great lengths to hide how you die (no killcams). But at some point, Bungie's obsession with rewarding full time players gets to the point of being just wrong. It can wreck fun. So put down a #5) 5) Uneven playing field, where certain segments of the crucible player base have things I might never have.

[iw5000]

Oct 6, 2014 11:53:33 GMT -5 psychlon said:

I wouldn't know that you have to unlock positioning in CoD and therefor I don't understand how you can possibly compare the two games in that aspect. In both games you have guns which are better and worse as well as people triumphing over others by spending more time in the game playing and on top of that, CoD even does have clan preference so that you can be sure the other team certainly is in the same voice chat coordinating their efforts.

What's so hard about comparing? I can start out brand spanking new in CoD Ghost MP, play a few hours, and have pretty much everything my opponents have on me. Fair. Balanced. Even playing field. Can I do that in Destiny? I have almost 48 hours played and I'm not even close.I want to counter someone's Ninja antics? Or Hulk smash? No chance. I would have to go start up a new character and get about thirty hours of playing in, to get it fully leveled.

Try this example. Let's go play CoD Ghosts, you and I. Let me have the MTAr with every attachment unlocked and useable on that gun, all the attachments used at once, as I have a crapton of time played on it. Then you come in, only a few hours, and have nothing. Let's see how well you do against me. You are going to get lit up over and over and over and over and over, all game long. So you keep playing, get 30 hours played in. Find out you still aren't even close to me. Then you get almost three days played, only to find out....guess what? You can't get my MTAR, it came via to me via luck of the draw, due to me getting lucky during my nine days of CoD playing.

What's not to understand about that? How inherently flawed it is?

If the base concept of leveling your character to unlock skills/ movement doesn't apply and random loot luck to get a "good" gun then maybe this isn't the PvP you've been looking for, status today.

I am enjoying the PvE quite a bit. I find the above a bit annoying, as the game has potential.

However I have to say that I am surprised that (considering iron banner) it is not possible to get raid legendary equivalent equipment via PvP, this being a shooter and such.

Another flaw with PvP. Typically the worst players in the lobby get the best loot. I don't think I got a single decent item in the last fifteen games I have played. If you want good loot, go in and go like 1-15. You have much better odds.

[wittyscorpion]

Oct 6, 2014 11:57:15 GMT -5 iw5000 said:

Witty. Discussing fun was kind of my point.I can have fun even in a Mario Cart'esque FPS'er like Destiny. With it's ridiculous weapons, explosions, and all over the board TTK's. I can have fun with that. I can even have fun with Bungie going to great lengths to hide how you die (no killcams). But at some point, Bungie's obsession with rewarding full time players gets to the point of being just wrong. It can wreck fun. So put down a #5) 5) Uneven playing field, where certain segments of the crucible player base have things I might never have.

My post is not a counter argument to your point. I can see that you are having fun with PvP, with one huge issue against the current design.

Many players out there, with a lot more hours played than you and therefore better gears, are not having fun with Crucible. They play it for the grind, not for the fun. If there are no marks, reps, bounties and loot as reward, they will never touch it.

I am trying to see what the main reasons are.

[hebbnh]

Eh, agree to disagree I guess, but your MTAR example just isn't reality. There's only one massively OP gun available to people who've sank a ton of time into the game and were good enough to be able to complete the raid on hard. Otherwise you can go buy/find the highest impact, lowest ROF assault rifle available whether you get it from the gunsmith, one of the factions, crucible handler, vanguard quartermaster, queen's emissary, random drop, wherever, and be on near-equal footing to someone who has the SUROS or any other weapon aside from the Mythoclast. Iron Banner will be a different story, but I believe that to be true for regular PvP.

Jumping and whatever else, yeah, I guess. I dunno. Maybe. I have a level 9 Warlock that double jumps just fine. 2 hours and 7 minutes of play time. After the 5 or 6 hours mentioned in your CoD Ghosts example, I think he'd be able to at least hold his own in the Crucible. Maybe I'm dead wrong--wouldn't be the first time. I'm going to find out after I get 3 or 4 more hours in with him.

[psychlon]

Oct 6, 2014 12:05:37 GMT -5 iw5000 said:

Oct 6, 2014 11:53:33 GMT -5 psychlon said:

I wouldn't know that you have to unlock positioning in CoD and therefor I don't understand how you can possibly compare the two games in that aspect. In both games you have guns which are better and worse as well as people triumphing over others by spending more time in the game playing and on top of that, CoD even does have clan preference so that you can be sure the other team certainly is in the same voice chat coordinating their efforts.

What's so hard about comparing? I can start out brand spanking new in CoD Ghost MP, play a few hours, and have pretty much everything my opponents have on me. Fair. Balanced. Even playing field. Can I do that in Destiny? I have almost 48 hours played and I'm not even close.I want to counter someone's Ninja antics? Or Hulk smash? No chance. I would have to go start up a new character and get about thirty hours of playing in, to get it fully leveled.

Try this example. Let's go play CoD Ghosts, you and I. Let me have the MTAr with every attachment unlocked and useable on that gun, all the attachments used at once, as I have a crapton of time played on it. Then you come in, only a few hours, and have nothing. Let's see how well you do against me. You are going to get lit up over and over and over and over and over, all game long. So you keep playing, get 30 hours played in. Find out you still aren't even close to me. Then you get almost three days played, only to find out....guess what? You can't get my MTAR, it came via to me via luck of the draw, due to me getting lucky during my nine days of CoD playing.

What's not to understand about that? How inherently flawed it is?

If the base concept of leveling your character to unlock skills/ movement doesn't apply and random loot luck to get a "good" gun then maybe this isn't the PvP you've been looking for, status today.

I am enjoying the PvE quite a bit. I find the above a bit annoying, as the game has potential.

However I have to say that I am surprised that (considering iron banner) it is not possible to get raid legendary equivalent equipment via PvP, this being a shooter and such.

Another flaw with PvP. Typically the worst players in the lobby get the best loot. I don't think I got a single decent item in the last fifteen games I have played. If you want good loot, go in and go like 1-15. You have much better odds.

You are comparing apple and oranges, that's as simple as it gets. You have to invest time to level your class where as everyone is "fully leveled" in CoD from the get go. If you want to compare this you have to chose another game with levels similar to Destiny (take any MMORPG with PvP).
The second comparison is regarding weapon. Yes, you have to be lucky but they do have the exotic vendor at which you do have some access to weapons. However I also have to invest time playing/ unlocking Levels in CoD to get to a certain weapon. I may take less long but I still have to invest some time. As for the OP weapon argument... hanging your argument on one extrem isn't giving it more weight. It highlights however that it's just one issue which has to be fixed.

Really my advice would be to leave PvP for some time, you've tested it already for yourself, you aren't happy with it and therefor I would focus just on PvE. 

I've played some PvP with my lvl 8, realised that I will have more fun in some time with higher level/ better gear and so be it. Now I'm about to finish my third class to lvl 20 (first class is lvl 20 and hasn't even land on Venus yet, second was played through the entire game, will do the same for the last one) and we'll see in some time what Bungie did to its current PvP to make it more fun even with crappy gear and or I won't visit crucible as much as I'd like to.

[iw5000]

Apples and oranges? Not really. I'm comparing two PvP FPS games.

And you are HEAVILY playing down the time element. Saying there's not much difference between leveling up a CoD Ghosts character and a Destiny character, is like saying Zac Efron and Ronnie Coleman are the same as they both have muscles.

[wittyscorpion]

psychlon: you are missing iw5000's point a little bit (if I understand correctly).

First of all, I believe that he is enjoying PvP reasonable amount, probably more than PvE. Like me, he prefers to play against other human players more than AIs, given the choice. After reaching level 27/28, and not having the luxury of time to commit to Raid due to real life, PvE do feel a bit repetitive. PvP on the other hand feels more exciting.

However, this does not stop him from having a big problem with the game's inherent bias in favor of the players who played more time than others. From my point of view, the focus of the current debate is the following:

How many hours does a player need to invest to be on relatively equal footing vs. any other players in Crucible?

Apparently, the existence of Vex Methoclast has made that number astronomical (for players who have limited time to coordinate with others to play Raids, and/or very bad luck).

Taking that out of the equation, can we say 20 hours? If yes, then I would say it is reasonable. hebbnh is saying it could be as little as 2 hours, while iw5000 is saying it can be more than 48 hours.

[hebbnh]

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying 2 hours, I was just responding to iw5k's point about not being able to hit double jumping with his level 8 character. I think 5-10 hours is more realistic than 2 or 20, but that will vary depending on the player. A lot of it depends on how efficient you are on leveling. Making sure to do bounties that coincide with activities you're going to be doing anyway, playing story on hard/normal instead of normal/easy, not just going on patrols and dicking around, and so on to maximize your XP gain vs time played. It also depends if you're talking about going in with a subclass fully maxed out. I don't think that's necessary to do decent in PvP. You can probably get away with having it halfway done or less and be fine, you simply won't have as many options available, but a lot of those options aren't really needed for crucible anyway.  I think of them kind of like the pro perks from CoD--nice to have, but not necessarily game changing. If you can double jump, super, melee, grenade, and shoot things with an AR, I think you're more or less good to go. Like I said, I'll see where I stand on that statement after I get a few more hours on my Warlock and try it out for myself.

[iw5000]

I am still not bored with the PvE Witty. I enjoy the looting and stuff. The PvE has a been a pleasant surprise. I am having fun at my own pace, getting to level 29.

But do enjoy the thrill and fun of playing other real people more. Computer AI is just that, AI, and will always be so. I know some AI can be made difficult, and maps like the VoG can be hard, but given time, Youtube, cheese spots, ...the AI gets crushed. Learn a pattern and it's over. It's just not that difficult. AI is dumb. It can't react to human counter-moves, like Cheese spots. You do a cheese spot on another good player/team, in a few minutes, they will counter-react in kind. I'll take beating six top players from WIKD over ANY AI opponent. That's always going to be 1000x more rewarding.

Here's the thing. Because I am liking the PvE as much as I am, it's making the PvP frustrating. Not because I am not doing well. I am actually doing really well at PvP, I have found the learning curve quite easy. I am frustrated because I see an END GAME with the PvP coming for me. I feel like at some point, if I cannot commit to 20 hours a week, and I am going to be left in the dust. Well, hell with that. I am already left in the dust. I know i don't have half the good stuff some opponents have. That is not fun. Not fun to try the PvP and end up beat down by some sh1thead who thinks he is good at the game, but in reality, just has a better ____ [inset latest OP item].

...and the people at Bungie seem to think this is a good thing with PvP! Fvck them.

That's wrong. I'm enjoying the game now, and feel like Bungie is going to chase me right off of it, as all they want to do is reward the people who play the game all fvcking day long. I don't care what some Destiny apologists say on this board...if I go play some Crucible games tonight, and come across half the games involving people using the Vex..i am just quitting. And that ruins the fun. People need to take the Bungie nuts out of their mouth and see it for what it is.

Edit..i am doing a lot of Crucible because 1) I need the Marks to level up. 2) I feel i need to give it a fair shake and play it a lot. I have well over fifty plus games in now. I have been hammering this mode a lot.

Regarding Hebbnh's views it only takes 2 hours to level the PvP field in Destiny? No fvcking way. None whatsoever. I created a second account and have like four hours in and i am only at level 7. I also went and played three Crucible games with that character and it was a joke. I couldn't even make 2/3rds of the jumps needed to move around the map (let alone all the other unbalanced stuff). Take a map like 'Shores of Time'. You can't even make the A > B jump to the B flag platform with a low level character. One is completely overmatched.

I have just under 48 hours in. I JUST finished the Warlock VoidWalker subclass. Only half finished on the SunSinger class. So am still not fully equipped with that one character, to take on a max leveled opponent. If i want to match an opponent's Hunter ninja sword? No chance. Match the Hulk Smash or use a Titan's shield. No luck. I am going to need another 48 hours to get there.

CoD Ghosts? I had just about everything i needed in a few hours.

[mannon]

I can't keep up with this thread anymore, but I did play a good bit more Crucible on my own and actually I had a ton of fun and found it quite addictive and I didn't get completely trashed by level 28 players with legendary gear. I was playing my level 20 so I'll still have to go at it with my lower level characters, but it was a blast, really, and I barely used my Super. (I'm always saving my super too long, plus I've not been real clear on just what the Sunsinger super actually does other than uber speed up your cooldowns so I have mostly just been using it to rain down grenades from time to time.

I've also not had much luck with special weapons. I dunno. Sniper rifles seem to have too much zoom and take too long for me to get a clean shot and shotguns just don't have much range and I don't know the maps well enough to really ambush people with them. Mostly I run around with the highest Impact auto rifle I have, aim for the head, and try to stick with teammates as much as possible, and that's about it. Still I bounce back and forth, but I have some really good games sometimes and have had a lot of fun with it. It's not that hard to do. You just compare rifles when you get new ones and never throw away the one with the highest impact. I kept some old lower level weapons around for quite a while just for PvP and they served me well. For PvE you gotta pay more attention to attack and level, but for PvP if you just keep the highest Impact auto rifle then you're pretty much okay for a primary. If you get one with some nice mods as well that's a bonus.

[hebbnh]

Dude, all I ever said was that I had a level 9 Warlock in 2 hours that was able to double jump just fine. I never said anything more than that regarding its ability to have success in PvP other than I would see where it was after 5-6 hours since that's what you threw out for what a Ghosts player would need to be on a somewhat level playing field. I then specifically corrected Witty by saying I think 5-10 hours would be a reasonable amount of time to have a character who can at least hold its own in the crucible. You don't need a fully maxed subclass to be competitive. I know this because I played crucible with a Bladedancer who was not fully maxed at the time, more like halfway, and did just fine.

Regarding the "insert latest OP item" stuff, the Vex Mythoclast is the only such thing at this point, and you could sink weeks into the game and not see it because it's a completely random drop from the hardest content in the game that very few people have. Stop worrying about it so much. I don't know what else you're seeing that's so OP that you don't have and can't get because you don't play enough. I don't think anything like that other than the Mythoclast even exists at this point. Are you referring to the SUROS? It's not OP, it's just very good. Other ARs are right on its tail. Other than that I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

If you want to match an opponent Hunter's ninja sword, you sure as shit don't need 48 hours to do it. Go create a Titan with the Striker subclass. Spend an hour or less leveling it up until you get your super ability unlocked at level 4 or 5. When you see said Hunter ninja swording around, drop your hulk smash on him. You win, GG, QQ.  Simple as that.

[wittyscorpion]

Oct 6, 2014 13:36:20 GMT -5 hebbnh said:

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying 2 hours, I was just responding to iw5k's point about not being able to hit double jumping with his level 8 character. I think 5-10 hours is more realistic than 2 or 20, but that will vary depending on the player. A lot of it depends on how efficient you are on leveling. Making sure to do bounties that coincide with activities you're going to be doing anyway, playing story on hard/normal instead of normal/easy, not just going on patrols and dicking around, and so on to maximize your XP gain vs time played. It also depends if you're talking about going in with a subclass fully maxed out. I don't think that's necessary to do decent in PvP. You can probably get away with having it halfway done or less and be fine, you simply won't have as many options available, but a lot of those options aren't really needed for crucible anyway.  I think of them kind of like the pro perks from CoD--nice to have, but not necessarily game changing. If you can double jump, super, melee, grenade, and shoot things with an AR, I think you're more or less good to go. Like I said, I'll see where I stand on that statement after I get a few more hours on my Warlock and try it out for myself.

Although I have not played Crucibles to even qualify for giving opinions, I share the same sentiment as you towards the various "gimmicks". Faster reloads / faster melee speeds / faster cooldown / bonus ammo / more damage in bottom half clips / etc are very nice to have, but IMHO they don't make a player that much stronger in a 1-on-1 fight.

I could be wrong though

[wittyscorpion]

Oct 6, 2014 14:52:17 GMT -5 hebbnh said:

Dude, all I ever said was that I had a level 9 Warlock in 2 hours that was able to double jump just fine. I never said anything more than that regarding its ability to have success in PvP other than I would see where it was after 5-6 hours since that's what you threw out for what a Ghosts player would need to be on a somewhat level playing field. I then specifically corrected Witty by saying I think 5-10 hours would be a reasonable amount of time to have a character who can at least hold its own in the crucible. You don't need a fully maxed subclass to be competitive. I know this because I played crucible with a Bladedancer who was not fully maxed at the time, more like halfway, and did just fine.

Regarding the "insert latest OP item" stuff, the Vex Mythoclast is the only such thing at this point, and you could sink weeks into the game and not see it because it's a completely random drop from the hardest content in the game that very few people have. Stop worrying about it so much. I don't know what else you're seeing that's so OP that you don't have and can't get because you don't play enough. I don't think anything like that other than the Mythoclast even exists at this point. Are you referring to the SUROS? It's not OP, it's just very good. Other ARs are right on its tail. Other than that I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

If you want to match an opponent Hunter's ninja sword, you sure as shit don't need 48 hours to do it. Go create a Titan with the Striker subclass. Spend an hour or less leveling it up until you get your super ability unlocked at level 4 or 5. When you see said Hunter ninja swording around, drop your hulk smash on him. You win, GG, QQ.  Simple as that.

I apologize for my "2 hour" misquote. I did that on purpose to highlight the dramatic differences in opinions, did not mean to take words out of context

We don't have to come up with a magic number, we can agree to disagree. IMHO 10 - 20 hours per subclass should represent a good investment to go into Crucible relatively balanced, barring facing OP weapons (which I do believe that Bungie is going to correct. They have upcoming patches to balance weapon types, I am sure that this Vex Myth OPness will be addressed).

Regarding supers, here is a quote I saw today on Twitter which I think that captures the essence of what you are saying, with a bit of humor:

"Destiny is like this: Paper is insanely OP. Scissor on the other hand is balanced perfectly. -Rock"

[hebbnh]

That Twitter quote is brilliant. So true!