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Post by TheHawkNY on Apr 3, 2015 16:11:55 GMT -5
Also... personally I think killstreaks are way out of hand, and they have always pissed me off anyway. Why? Because even when I was quite good and often getting 3 or 3 KD games I still wasn't getting the high killstreaks. Killstreaks don't encourage you to kill more than you die, they encourage you to not die at all costs. I find the KS system frustrating these days, especially now that I've played Titanfall and to some lesser extent Destiny. I think the days of CoD being my #1 multiplayer game are over. Killstreaks are interesting because they have direct benefits from a design perspective. They are another pop-up that gives those endorphins that keep players engaged. But they also provide a small challenge system, and sort of a PvP difficulty setting - as players increase their skill, they are able to choose higher streaks. You might also find killstreaks frustrating because Advanced Warfare has the least killstreaks since the introduction of selectable killstreaks, and is the first COD without a single original killstreak since they were introduced.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 3, 2015 16:47:08 GMT -5
Naw I've always found killstreaks frustrating, mostly in W@W and MW2. To some extent it it difficulty or skill selected, but it forces you to do it all in one life, not merely to get enough kills to do it but to get them all clustered up. I've always found that frustrated, more so in the games I was actually pretty good at. Because while I got good enough at the game to do really well I wasn't that good at farming for killstreaks.
Basically the game punishes aggressive play and encourages tactical loitering and other things. Somebody happens to kill 7 people in one life but die a whole bunch the rest of the match and they get a great reward, where I might kill 3 or 4 people every single life and I just have to make due with my UAV's. Being consistently really good is not nearly as good as being occasionally lucky or just knowing how to farm those killstreaks...
I used to be okay with it, but I don't think I am anymore. It doesn't make me want to learn to go farm killstreaks... it makes me want to go play Titanfall where I also want to get kills so I can get my titan faster and still don't want to die, but don't have to worry too much if I die before I get my titan. I don't like the punishment aspect of killstreaks. If I die that's punishment enough.
I also don't like the gambling aspect. You have to know ahead of time how you think you'll fare in the match to decide what streaks to take. Bet on high end streaks and you better hope you do well enough to earn them or you just wasted your killstreaks. Bet too low and you're stuck with UAV's when you could have had a Chopper Gunner! To hell with that...
tl;dr Now I want to play Titanfall this weekend... ;3
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exxtrooper
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Post by exxtrooper on Apr 4, 2015 12:34:08 GMT -5
What is call of duty I thought this was the Destiny section.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 4, 2015 15:38:09 GMT -5
What is call of duty I thought this was the Destiny section. Agreed
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 6, 2015 11:06:41 GMT -5
If the conversation is on game design, and kill streaks, how can you not discuss CoD? It's part of the fabric of FPSing.
Regarding the above. I doesn't seem like some of the above comments are discussing the recent CoD's. Games like AW and BO2 still have the killstreak premise of "encourage people to not die"...but, these recent games also mixed that in with objective playing AND support streaks. CoD changed, so those gripes don't really apply anymore. You can't fall back on that complaint at it. If you play skillfully, you can still die AND get streaks. Or play skillfully, get objectives, kills, and get streaks.
and as far as games like Destiny, and it's rewards? Destiny doesn't have any streaks that require staying alive. But none the less, look at how a good portion of the Destiny PvP playerbase plays. They still play the game like skirt wearing pvssies. I can't get through even a single Destiny PvP game without seeing half the players crouch walking in corners with shotguns, or hiding in obscure corners sniping, both sides doing anything and everything to avoid playing the objective. Complete scrub fest of a FPS'er. Most of the play is garbage. Plus in a sense that you don't really have to do anything in Destiny to get at least one killstreak (ie, super)...all you have to do is wait in a corner and it will ultimately come. So the game rewards garbage play. If anything, that's taking things way to far in the other direction, and probably one of the reason's most people think Crucible sucks donkey azz. (and it does. It should be removed and rebuilt into something better)
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Post by TheHawkNY on Apr 6, 2015 11:17:36 GMT -5
Actually, the net effect of killstreaks is encouraging aggressive play. While it may be in your best interest to slow down and play cautiously while on a streak, your best chance at getting a killstreak reward comes from playing aggressively until you are near that reward. The majority of players at any given moment are not near a reward, and have incentive to play aggressively.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 6, 2015 11:35:51 GMT -5
I think the whole 'encourage not to die', and the concepts of aggressive/hiding, are two different things.
IMHO, if going for a pure high killstreak (12 straight kills, no deaths for example), let's face it, you have to know how to stay alive. That means knowing spawns, player patterns, positioning/cover, and how to win gun-battles. You have to know how 'not' to die.
But I agree with your point, a lot depends on where you are in your kill cycle. If you are early stage (like coming off of a death), aggressive play is where it's at. You typically can't get 12 kill streaks (using that example) sitting back and waiting for dipsh1ts to mess up, walk by. You need to be aggressive, and find pockets of opponents, get into the right position where you can aggressively pick up multiple kills. The passive part, is typically at the latter stage of the cycle. If you are only 1 or 2 kills off the streak, THEN it makes sense to wait for the one dumbazz to run by. There's always one or two of them floating around at all times.
If you watch good CoD players, like you said... they aren't getting high streaks from sitting in corners sniping or poaching easy kills. They get those streaks from getting those aggressive multiple kills in bunches, and then playing smart when closing in on the goal. There's no 'cost' with the above, at least initially in the cycle. You are at zero. But you keep aggressively throwing yourself into those right setups, constantly rolling up 4 to 8 streak kills, you'll get your high streaks consistently.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 6, 2015 12:08:08 GMT -5
Consistency is not something I've ever experienced in CoD. ;3 No worries there.
As of right this moment I still find Destiny PvP, (warts and all) vastly more fun than CoD:AW. But perhaps that will change. I'm taking a bit of a break from it right now and playing more GTAV among other things. Maybe I'll give AW a run some weekend... but I'd rather just fire up Titanfall.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 6, 2015 12:09:53 GMT -5
Consistency is not something I've ever experienced in CoD. ;3 No worries there. As of right this moment I still find Destiny PvP, (warts and all) vastly more fun than CoD:AW. But perhaps that will change. I'm taking a bit of a break from it right now and playing more GTAV among other things. Maybe I'll give AW a run some weekend... but I'd rather just fire up Titanfall. I've gone back to playing AW's for my PvP fun. Even with it's warts, it's a vastly superior game to Destiny's Crucible (but, that said, it's a vastly much more difficult game to play too. In CoD terms, the learning curve is huge this time)
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 6, 2015 12:18:23 GMT -5
I got the Thorn bounty and will have to hit the Crucible... sigh.
At least, I can get marks so if there is a nice weapon to buy, I can buy it.
I'm not looking forward to this, although I did get the secret handshake shotgun with void damage, so that might help. But one of my more effective PVP weapons was my void plug one.1 so... meh
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 6, 2015 12:19:32 GMT -5
I dunno. I just don't find it very much fun, while Destiny PvP is fun to me. For my money that makes Destiny the... superior game... in a way. The PvP is definitely tacked on a bit and not well focused, though.
TF has them both beat about 100 times over. Really looking forward to that sequel in a year or few!
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 6, 2015 12:21:38 GMT -5
I dunno. I just don't find it very much fun, while Destiny PvP is fun to me. For my money that makes Destiny the... superior game... in a way. The PvP is definitely tacked on a bit and not well focused, though. TF has them both beat about 100 times over. Really looking forward to that sequel in a year or few! I liked TF's overall experience better too (lag, gameplay mechanics, etc..) But...for some reason, I can't find any compelling reason to go back and play it. I wish I knew why. I haven't put it in the console in months. Something is keeping me from playing it, not sure what.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Apr 6, 2015 12:29:21 GMT -5
I got the Thorn bounty and will have to hit the Crucible... sigh. At least, I can get marks so if there is a nice weapon to buy, I can buy it. I'm not looking forward to this, although I did get the secret handshake shotgun with void damage, so that might help. But one of my more effective PVP weapons was my void plug one.1 so... meh I'll do it with you. Do you have a void primary?
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 6, 2015 12:43:14 GMT -5
I got the Thorn bounty and will have to hit the Crucible... sigh. At least, I can get marks so if there is a nice weapon to buy, I can buy it. I'm not looking forward to this, although I did get the secret handshake shotgun with void damage, so that might help. But one of my more effective PVP weapons was my void plug one.1 so... meh I'll do it with you. Do you have a void primary? Atheon's for primary... void plugone.1 or SHandshake for special... either a void RL or MG. I just got it so I haven't done any of it. It's more of a "hey, I'm bored and don't want to do bounties" sorta thing Is it any void kills or is it void weapon kills? I do get some axion bolt kills after I die... will those help towards the Thorn?
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 6, 2015 12:53:36 GMT -5
I'd do it with you too, but you'll be done by the time I get around to it. ;3
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 6, 2015 13:04:25 GMT -5
I'd do it with you too, but you'll be done by the time I get around to it. ;3 You've clearly forgotten how much I hate crucible. At least with bad Juju, deaths didn't matter. I just had to get 100 kills. Here, I need to have a KDR. I mean, I can maintain a .4 (I'm not that that bad) but it's gonna take many many games. At least abilities will count. I dunno if it's gonna be worth it or not, but it'll be something to do until HoW comes out
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Post by TheHawkNY on Apr 6, 2015 13:54:08 GMT -5
Yep, abilities count. It won't be that bad, I promise.
I'm attempting to have all of the exotic bounties ready to turn in when HoW drops so I'll have 5 exotics at the new level cap right off the bat. I currently have at least one of each of them except for Shattered Memory Fragment (Pocket Infinity).
Is there a limit to the number of exotic bounties you can have on a character at one time? Are you unable to get an exotic bounty if you already have three on that character?
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 6, 2015 14:03:03 GMT -5
Yep, abilities count. It won't be that bad, I promise. I'm attempting to have all of the exotic bounties ready to turn in when HoW drops so I'll have 5 exotics at the new level cap right off the bat. I currently have at least one of each of them except for Shattered Memory Fragment (Pocket Infinity). Is there a limit to the number of exotic bounties you can have on a character at one time? Are you unable to get an exotic bounty if you already have three on that character? Nope... in the past, at one time on PoloI, I've had SGA, Invective, Thorn, and Pocket Infinity. This was back in the only 5 bounty days, so I just deleted all except the SGA one
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Post by TheHawkNY on Apr 6, 2015 14:34:08 GMT -5
Good. I'm currently sitting on SGA/Thorn/Bad Juju on my Warlock; SGA/Thorn on my Titan; and SGA/Bad Juju on my Hunter.
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Apr 6, 2015 14:36:00 GMT -5
I need to do that bounty as well.
Atheons and two to the morgue for me.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 7, 2015 3:50:14 GMT -5
If the conversation is on game design, and kill streaks, how can you not discuss CoD? It's part of the fabric of FPSing. Agreed, my point was railgunners and sniping in general though, not complaining about COD in general. It has always been good to meRegarding the above. I doesn't seem like some of the above comments are discussing the recent CoD's. Games like AW and BO2 still have the killstreak premise of "encourage people to not die"...but, these recent games also mixed that in with objective playing AND support streaks. CoD changed, so those gripes don't really apply anymore. You can't fall back on that complaint at it. If you play skillfully, you can still die AND get streaks. Or play skillfully, get objectives, kills, and get streaks. I have only played AW once on an 360 from a friend, but I don't really agree with you about BO. Killstreaks in BO was different tactical loitering, but still tactical loitering. Objectives played a bigger role, but it resulted in a different form of pussy play, it didn't remove it IMHO. Other than that, support streaks did not really change anything in the games I played, most ppl go for the assault streaks anywayand as far as games like Destiny, and it's rewards? Destiny doesn't have any streaks that require staying alive. But none the less, look at how a good portion of the Destiny PvP playerbase plays. They still play the game like skirt wearing pvssies. I can't get through even a single Destiny PvP game without seeing half the players crouch walking in corners with shotguns, or hiding in obscure corners sniping, both sides doing anything and everything to avoid playing the objective. Are we even playing the same game?? Your experiences have been completely different with mine in destiny. Sure, I see ppl crouching sometimes, but not in a corner, they crouch when somebody comes near to reduce the radar footprint. Seems logical and a perfectly valid option to go with the way the motion sensor was designed. I do it allot as well, esp when I am not at full health and somebody is near. Objective play is not a big thing overall in normal control, but this issue it is not bigger than it was with COD in the past. In the other game modes everybody seems to play the objective though, and in IB as well. Complete scrub fest of a FPS'er. Most of the play is garbage. Plus in a sense that you don't really have to do anything in Destiny to get at least one killstreak (ie, super)...all you have to do is wait in a corner and it will ultimately come. Seems very comparable to support streaks in COD, everybody will get them, but the better players just get more. Seems like a good design to me (just like TF) So the game rewards garbage play. That cannot really be concluded from what you just stated, if you play good, you will get several supers, if you play bad, you will get a single super, it will probably get you one single kill. Whoopdiwhoop, unlocking claymores/betties in COD will net you way more free kills in any COD game (up to AW, did not play that enough). It is not as if playing bad in crucible gives you some kind of a bigger reward than playing good, like you are implying here... Playing good/the objective will give you more supers. I.E. the game does not reward garbage play at all. If anything, that's taking things way to far in the other direction, and probably one of the reason's most people think Crucible sucks donkey azz. (and it does. It should be removed and rebuilt into something better) I really think you are overestimating the amount of ppl who share your view here. A quick google gave me this poll: It is just a small sample, and I don't want to be drawing big conclusions from it (Like I am not saying game x is better than y, I am discussing how ppl feel about the games here, because allot of ppl actually feel different) And it seems pretty clear to me, ppl (from this limited sample) like crucible just as much as COD AW. www.gamefaqs.com/boards/691088-xbox-one/71167711This is also one I found, with an even smaller sample size: www.bungie.net/ne/Forum/Post/100345863/0/057 like PvP and PvE equally 135 like PvE more 21 like PvP more That is still 78/213= 37% of the players who voted actually like crusible.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 7:52:05 GMT -5
Qpie...
1. regarding changes to CoD games, with objective play. I was referencing the later BlackOps 2, not BlackOps 1. BO2 added a ton of new game alterations that changed how killstreaks worked. One could in theory cap five consecutive flags in Dom, not get a single kill, and then start chaining streaks together (VSAT to dogs to swarm, etc..). No kills needed, only objective play. This was new to BO2.
2. people do hide and snipe a ton in Destiny. I've been in control games, where I've passed up four teammates on the way to B, died capping it, respawned, and STILL beat those four other teammates back to the B zone, as they were crouch-walking still like douches. Crouchwalking may (or is) be a viable tactic, but it should only be used now and then. But many people I see in the Crucible, that's almost how they entirely how they navigate the map. Crouchwalking. These people are useless. Almost as bad as those who insist on sniping in the control game mode.
4. Destiny's Supers are nothing like CoDAW's support streaks. If you do nothing in AW, you get no support streak. If you do nothing in Destiny, ....you still will get a 'super' around the 5 1/2 minute, pretty much guaranteeing you 2 to 4 kills. The two forms of killstreaks couldn't be any more different.
5. Claymores and betties in CoD? How long has it been? Those games were from like 5 or 6 years ago. And yes, the double claymore and betty stuff was cheap, (back then, which is old news) but it should be said, I also complained about that stuff back then too.
6. thanks for the poll, but I am always very suspect about polls like that. If you want to draw conclusions from data though, you might just want to use Bungie's own released data, which shows only like 12% of the Destiny player base plays Crucible. That's pretty much the only poll you need to know (I might be off by a few points there, going from memory). 12%? What does that tell you? And with that, that 12% is probably mostly being derived from those players being bribed to go play, to get armor or weapons.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 7, 2015 8:31:21 GMT -5
Qpie... 1. regarding changes to CoD games, with objective play. I was referencing the later BlackOps 2, not BlackOps 1. BO2 added a ton of new game alterations that changed how killstreaks worked. One could in theory cap five consecutive flags in Dom, not get a single kill, and then start chaining streaks together (VSAT to dogs to swarm, etc..). No kills needed, only objective play. This was new to BO2. I was talking BO2 too, sorry if that wasn't clear. But like you said, it only made us different pussies2. people do hide and snipe a ton in Destiny. I've been in control games, where I've passed up four teammates on the way to B, died capping it, respawned, and STILL beat those four other teammates back to the B zone, as they were crouch-walking still like douches. Crouchwalking may (or is) be a viable tactic, but it should only be used now and then. But many people I see in the Crucible, that's almost how they entirely how they navigate the map. Crouchwalking. These people are useless. Almost as bad as those who insist on sniping in the control game mode. Yeah in normal control the objective play is kinda bad, but I rarely get killed by campers (only on shores of time)4. Destiny's Supers are nothing like CoDAW's support streaks. If you do nothing in AW, you get no support streak. If you do nothing in Destiny, ....you still will get a 'super' around the 5 1/2 minute, pretty much guaranteeing you 2 to 4 kills. The two forms of killstreaks couldn't be any more different. Never played AW, but I think it is actually pretty close to MW support streaks. The only really difference is if you AFK. I think the timer-kills kind of rewards (titanfall/destiny) are way better than the killstreak type rewards (assault streaks). Support streaks are very similar to the timer kind of reward IMO. Other than that, who does nothing? everybody can get a few kills off. If players are doing nothing, they are also doing nothing with their super. Nice argument on paper, but it never happens in practice.5. Claymores and betties in CoD? How long has it been? Those games were from like 5 or 6 years ago. And yes, the double claymore and betty stuff was cheap, (back then, which is old news) but it should be said, I also complained about that stuff back then too. Lol? a year ago? Never played ghosts? I would get at least 1-2 free claymore kills every game, which is more than a noob can get with supers in destiny. I can say with 100% certainty that I get more free claymore kills in a single game of COD ghosts than free super kills in a single game of destiny on average6. thanks for the poll, but I am always very suspect about polls like that. If you want to draw conclusions from data though, you might just want to use Bungie's own released data, which shows only like 12% of the Destiny player base plays Crucible. That's pretty much the only poll you need to know (I might be off by a few points there, going from memory). 12%? What does that tell you? And with that, that 12% is probably mostly being derived from those players being bribed to go play, to get armor or weapons. Well there is a difference. There are two (probably more, but we discussed these two recently) reasons to play destiny/crucible : - for fun - for rewards Now, because it was stated that most ppl think "Crucible sucks donkey azz", which I don't completely agree with. I think the polls is a way better way of evaluating the oppinion of other players. Because the question was actually what ppl think of crusible and is it fun. Not a combination of fun and loot rewarding. As we can all agree, the loot system in normal crucible sucks donkey azz . Now you say, all players hate crucible but play it during Iron Banner for the rewards, I say, allot of players like crucible but don't play it because PvE gives better rewards (except during Iron Banner weeks). In order to remove the "reward" part from the equation, I think we can't use "played" numbers. As it will always be a combination of the two (fun + rewards).
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 8:37:44 GMT -5
Those polls are junk. There's only one set of data that matters if you are looking for the popularity of Crucible. Bungie's own data. People do NOT play it. That is fact. That fact is also backed by actual numbers from Bungie, and right from the mouth's of the Bungie developers posting it.
'why' people don't play it? We can all speculate and toss about theories. That's about it.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 7, 2015 8:41:13 GMT -5
Lol, those polls are all data we have on the matter. Bungie's data just doesn't provide the same information... the rewards system is to big of a confounder.
So yeah, I would say those polls actually do tell a story, although we have to be very carefull to draw big conclusions from that small sample sizes. (and there is a huge selection bias ofc)
One thing is for sure, from Bungie's data one cannot conclude that most people think crusible sucks. Because the first thing ppl say when you ask them: "why no crucible" is "Because the rewards suck/I need to do x PvE activity".
Edit: Now I am not saying crucible is the best PvP game of the past five years, I am just stating that there might be allot more crucible lovers than you think. I still enjoy a few hours of crucible.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 8:54:29 GMT -5
Lol, those polls are all data we have on the matter. Bungie's data just doesn't provide the same information... the rewards system is to big of a confounder. Polls like those are ridiculously biased and easy to manipulate. You basically just agreed with me. If a person says the 'Crucible sucks', and the reason they give is "rewards sucks'...same difference. I would say the same thing for the Nightfalls these days. I think they 'suck'. I am not going to bullet sponge my way (if I was still playing Destiny) to 45 min of hell on a NF, only to get a few strange coins and a crappy gun. That sucks.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 7, 2015 9:27:40 GMT -5
Lol, those polls are all data we have on the matter. Bungie's data just doesn't provide the same information... the rewards system is to big of a confounder. Polls like those are ridiculously biased and easy to manipulate. True, but that doesn't make any difference about the fact that it is our only source of information of whether other players think crucible is fun where rewards systems are not a confounding factor....You basically just agreed with me. If a person says the 'Crucible sucks', and the reason they give is "rewards sucks'...same difference. I would say the same thing for the Nightfalls these days. I think they 'suck'. I am not going to bullet sponge my way (if I was still playing Destiny) to 45 min of hell on a NF, only to get a few strange coins and a crappy gun. That sucks. Lolwut? Really? We are talking gameplay here, not rewards. Rewards have nothing to do with how 'fun' a game is. Who likes it. And which game is superior. All things you brought up on this very topic... Having something more efficient to play rewards wise does not implicate in any way that crucible sucks... That is the whole point of this conversation
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 9:41:15 GMT -5
qupie. We don't know 'why' people don't play Crucible. I'm sure rewards have something to do with, to some degree but the extent and how much, ...no one really knows.
All we know is that people don't play it. I am probably being a bit to over the top, to categorically say most all people think it sucks. Ok. But I don't think I am stretching it to far, in saying that people don't like. 85% don't like. That's a pretty big number. Whether it's the lag, the rewards, the supers, the over/abuse of shotguns, the pace...there could be lots of reasons why people don't like it.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 7, 2015 9:45:05 GMT -5
Which was exactly my point in the first place... we don't know why 85% doesn't PLAY crucible. Nobody Those 85% never said they didn't like it. (which is what you are implying from the data)
Hell, what was the % of players completed a raid again? So we are amusing the rest doesn't like raiding?
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 10:28:23 GMT -5
Which was exactly my point in the first place... we don't know why 85% doesn't PLAY crucible. Nobody Those 85% never said they didn't like it. (which is what you are implying from the data) Hell, what was the % of players completed a raid again? So we are amusing the rest doesn't like raiding? Terrible analogy. The raiding process has a large number of requirements to meet, before one can raid. One needs to be a certain level. One needs (or is helped a lot by) having friends at or near the same level. One needs the proper gear and equipment. One also needs TIME, as most players (especially newer raiders) don't always have large chunks of time to do it. These are all hurdles one must get over, before they can even start to consider the Raid experience. These things immediately cut off/restrict a large majority of the player base. I'm guessing here, but maybe well over 50% of the Destiny player base isn't there yet? They aren't playing, because they don't even have a choice yet. Crucible? None of the above restrictions apply. You can go right in at level 3 and just start playing, with any gear you have, any level, and all that is needed is about ten minutes. Pretty much, probably well over 95% of the player base can access this mode right form the get go. Last point. If I have 'like' something, and have easy access to it (no restrictions) ....I tend to do it. What you tried to explain off, that perhaps the 85% actually likes Crucible, but just don't play it....uh no, that's not how human behavior works.
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