mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 7, 2015 10:40:32 GMT -5
Why not? I like it, but I don't play it for reasons I already explained. Bungie makes Crucible inconvenient and unrewarding to play. There's no way to quantify how much of the lack of play is due to that vs people just not liking it.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 7, 2015 10:41:12 GMT -5
Which was exactly my point in the first place... we don't know why 85% doesn't PLAY crucible. Nobody Those 85% never said they didn't like it. (which is what you are implying from the data) Hell, what was the % of players completed a raid again? So we are amusing the rest doesn't like raiding? Terrible analogy. The raiding process has a large number of requirements to meet, before one can raid. One needs to be a certain level. One needs (or is helped a lot by) having friends at or near the same level. One needs the proper gear and equipment. One also needs TIME, as most players (especially newer raiders) don't always have large chunks of time to do it. These are all hurdles one must get over, before they can even start to consider the Raid experience. These things immediately cut off/restrict a large majority of the player base. I'm guessing here, but maybe well over 50% of the Destiny player base isn't there yet? They aren't playing, because they don't even have a choice yet. Which was my point exactly. I picked that analogy to make a point... You can't pick a number and conclude it is a result of one of the possible 100 reasons.Crucible? None of the above restrictions apply. You can go right in at level 3 and just start playing, with any gear you have, any level, and all that is needed is about ten minutes. Pretty much, probably well over 95% of the player base can access this mode right form the get go. Last point. If I have 'like' something, and have easy access to it (no restrictions) ....I tend to do it. What you tried to explain off, that perhaps the 85% actually likes Crucible, but just don't play it....uh no, that's not how human behavior works. There really is no grey area for you is there . Al I am saying is that it is likely that (total guesstimate) about 30% of destiny players actually like crucible, but they don't all play it because of "x". I think it is because of the rewards, because that is what I hear/read everywhere
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 10:52:17 GMT -5
I really don't view this as a 'grey' area discussion qupie. You seem to be the one trying to fill in the blanks, as to why people don't play Crucible.
From my end? They don't play it. Probably many reasons. But all those reasons stem from one base...they don't like something about it. If they did 'like it' (like you claim)...they would then play it.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 10:55:27 GMT -5
Why not? I like it, but I don't play it for reasons I already explained. Bungie makes Crucible inconvenient and unrewarding to play. There's no way to quantify how much of the lack of play is due to that vs people just not liking it. I think this discussion is breaking down into a mess of semantics. If something is 'inconvenient' and 'unrewarding to play'...those are reasons why they don't like it. It's like me saying this. "This piece of food tastes like smells like dogsh1t, tastes like rotten meat, and is making my bowels explode in pain.....but I do love it!!!!" Anyways.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 7, 2015 11:10:47 GMT -5
Indeed. So...... back to the original purpose of the thread.... I didn't know this site existed: thedestinyblog.com/ Nice gathering of news, especially with the teaser that Bungie will announce the HoW release date sometime this month
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 7, 2015 11:16:21 GMT -5
I don't think so. How convenient it is to switch between PvE and PvP content and back, how much fun I have doing it, and what kind of rewards and progress I achieve from it are three very distinct things. Yes we cannot distinguish why people don't play it. But you downplayed the effect of the lack of rewards and focused on the fun and percieved skill in actual play as being the reasons. I think it's only fair to point out that no, there are many possible reaons why people who do have fun playing it don't do it.
I don't eat steak very often either. That doesn't mean I think steak smells like dogshite, tastes like rotten meat, and makes my bowels explode. Maybe I just think it's expensive or a pain in the arse and don't want to eat too much red meat all the time. It's not merely semantics. I don't agree with your assumptions and characterizations of why people don't play PvP. Not 100%. I'm certain there are people who don't play Crucible because they don't think it's fun. On the other hand there is literally nothing in the world that will fix that. this game is mostly focused on PvE and that's where the majority of the player base is and will be. The game has drawn in tons of people who not only don't play Crucible, they also don't play CoD, or Halo multiplayer, or any FPS multiplayer. Nothing will win them over. If it were a different game the PvP might be a bigger draw than the PvE, but it isn't.
Now if Crucible/IB is bad because you think it's bad then... okay. That's like, your opinion. But if you're saying it's bad because not many people play it then I think we need to look at the bigger picture as to why people don't play it.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 11:25:33 GMT -5
My personal opinion has been the same for quite some time...Crucible sucks.
I've also shared the opinion that Bungie's 85% number, would seem to support that most players don't like Crucible either. If you aren't playing it, it's kind of a safe assumption to make that there is something you don't like about it. I don't think I am making any controversy in saying that.
Your last comment? I never said that. I've said from the beginning...we don't know why people don't play. Bungie has never released any info this. The rest is on some of you. It seems to be some of you guys, who keep insisting on trying to fill in the blanks there. Flesh that out, and make a case that large numbers of people like it, and the other comments about rewards.
I do find the conversation interesting. From a game design standpoint, with a dash of human behavior elements.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 7, 2015 11:51:49 GMT -5
There are lots of reasons to not play Crucible whether you like it or not, therefore I don't think the 85% number necessarily means most players don't like Crucible. I does mean there is something about it they don't like, but what is that thing? Who knows. But more players do play Iron Banner, so what's different there? Part of it is being able to enjoy the benefits of your hard earned progress kitting out your character, and part of it is the rewards. I think that there is a significant jump in participation supports the idea that not everybody thinks PvP sucks. Are there also people who do think it sucks playing Iron Banner? Sure... So it doesn't mean much. But it certainly does not mean that the only people who enjoy PvP are the people playing vanilla Crucible.
Frankly I think that if most people feel as negatively towards the PvP as you do then there would be even less people playing than there are now. And why bother posting tips on weapons and loadouts or uploading youtube videos about it? If the PvP just sucks they why care about it? I would just ignore it the way I did PvP in gears of war, Far Cry and many many other games.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 7, 2015 12:00:42 GMT -5
We don't know how many people are playing Crucible. Destiny doesn't post online population numbers.
And for every video about the crucible, there has to be 100 on the PvE.
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Apr 7, 2015 16:01:52 GMT -5
There are a lot of players that don't have maxed out Exotics that feel completely underpowered and at a disadvantage in PVP. Most of them don't stick around very long.
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exxtrooper
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Post by exxtrooper on Apr 8, 2015 8:05:24 GMT -5
Well to be fair there is drastically more PVE content in this game, plus this game is marketed to be casual as fuck so most people just sit back in their couch and want to shoot stuff.
And they want the shooting stuff part to be easy.
PVP doesn't do that for them.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 8, 2015 9:04:07 GMT -5
I think people on here tend to take it personal when I rant on about how the Crucible sucks. It's just one person's opinion, mine. That's really about it. I only rant, because 1) it blows off steam, but more importantly 2), the hope that someone, somewhere at Bungie, just might find this site by a google search. Read the comments, and then do some fixing.
I don't think my main 'fixes' would be that narrow minded for the type of PvP that exists in Destiny. If I had to prioritize my ideas, they would be the following...
1. If Bungie is going to run nothing but the Control game mode, as the ONLY game mode for Iron Banner, then please fix the fvcking maps. Most of the maps used (for Control) are designed by FPS developer retards, with no sense of balance (& spawns). I sometimes just can't believe Bungie people made these maps. Blind Watch, Firebase Delphi, Twightlight Gap, ...all very very very unbalanced. Especially Blind Watch. The game is essentially over if you spawn on the A side, and the other team is somewhat intelligent. Ten minutes of beating one's head into the wall, is all you have to look forward too. This is inexcusable for something like the Iron Banner.
2. Iron Banner right now, is a big clusterFoxtrot of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. Why? Challenges. These are an integral part of the leveling process, so one can get the rewards. The problem? The other half is winning your games. And the two things don't mesh well. Bungie needs to immediately scrap most all of their bounties with IB. And bring about bounties that are directly related, to the game mode being played. This is stupid easy to do. I can list them. 1). Get 10,000xp, 2) Cap 20 zones of control, 3) Win 5 games, 4) Get 25 defense kills (while people are capping), 5) Get 10 kills while capping a flag, 6) Get 5 'first kills' of the game, 7) Win a game by 8,000pts, 8) Win a game by 12,000 pts, 9) Get a multi-kill while people are capping, 10) Get 10 caps in one game
Done. Every single bounty up there, is geared towards making people play the game mode being used, 'Control'. And every one of those above bounties, would get people playing the objective like hardened mother-fvkers. Ok, maybe not everyone. But it would significantly increase the numbers of people playing the game mode right. And people who do play the game correctly, will get IB done in probably half the time. Aholes? They can be stuck playing it for days.
3. Heavy Ammo. When this stuff respawns, put it right in the middle of the map, right near the B flag. Better yet, have two spawns. The heavy ammo spawns near the B flag, but on the side of the map to whoever controls B. You want heavy ammo? Make sure you control the B flag.
4. Sniping lock. If your team is losing the game, your sniper rifle is locked up in your menu. You want to be some sniping douche? Do something to get your team ahead on the leaderboard. And if you can't deal with that? Go play another game mode.
5. Quitting. You back out of a game (or go inactive), you are locked out of the IB for 60 minutes.
You do the above for Iron Banner? Just those few suggestions, the game plays much better.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Apr 8, 2015 9:19:37 GMT -5
1. I don't have a huge problem with the maps being unbalanced. It rewards fireteams. A game on Blind Watch is over if one team is intelligent and the other team is not, regardless of which sides they spawn on. 2. As I said here, they put more thought into the bounties than you're giving them credit for. denkirson.proboards.com/post/209296/thread3. One heavy ammo drop at B just means you'll get instantly killed even if you get it. Giving heavy only to the team that controls B means that the rich get richer. Smart team players, when within distance of the other team's heavy drop when they hear "heavy ammo inbound", attack their heavy to steal it or kill them when they grab it, giving their team a huge advantage. 4. It sounds like you need to play in a full party more often. 5. I don't see a lot of quitting in Iron Banner, because you only get a 25% bonus for winning.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 8, 2015 9:26:09 GMT -5
1. I don't have a huge problem with the maps being unbalanced. It rewards fireteams. A game on Blind Watch is over if one team is intelligent and the other team is not, regardless of which sides they spawn on. 2. As I said here, they put more thought into the bounties than you're giving them credit for. denkirson.proboards.com/post/209296/thread3. One heavy ammo drop at B just means you'll get instantly killed even if you get it. Giving heavy only to the team that controls B means that the rich get richer. Smart team players, when within distance of the other team's heavy drop when they hear "heavy ammo inbound", attack their heavy to steal it or kill them when they grab it, giving their team a huge advantage. 4. It sounds like you need to play in a full party more often. 5. I don't see a lot of quitting in Iron Banner, because you only get a 25% bonus for winning. Your #2 is full of errors. I already touched on that in the other thread. I've played with full parties. That's not really relevant to what's being discussed. My points about are about how to make the IB overall a better experience. Not how to make YOUR experience better...which is only playing with a full party. Most people in Destiny's IB aren't doing that. edit - and if you are playing in a full party or partial party...of course you wouldn't mind unbalanced maps. It works to your favor, as most of the solo playing Destiny players just run to whatever flag is there (or go snipe in a corner)
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Post by TheHawkNY on Apr 8, 2015 10:11:03 GMT -5
I play in full parties, smaller parties, and solo. Your idea of thwarting players from using a sniper is ridiculous. Not just because disabling a weapon type for the losing team is ridiculous, but also because it's actually counterproductive. The guy that's in the back, sniping, basically doing nothing? He's also not dying, providing the other team points. Force him into more engagements, and he's probably making your team lose quicker, not giving you a better chance to win. And all of those Iron Banner bounties you're complaining about discourage players from sitting in the back and sniping.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 8, 2015 10:51:02 GMT -5
Like I said before, not taking anything personal. All I want is strait facts and conclusions. No speculation. You severely changed your op opinion on it btw, I don't know where exactly. Not going to read everything again.
Your oppinion started with: How can anyone use the IB as evidence of the crucible being successful? The IB is pretty much this..,."we think your PvP sucks, but if you bribe us well enough, maybe we'll consider...." That's not a testament to good game design, when probably half the players playing are doing so not for fun, but for armor/weapons. And the other half who do IB? These are the people who suck at PvP gaming but likes how Bungie gives them OP buffs to beat down on othr players. Not good.
Implying whether ppl like/play it has nothing to do with rewards, because ppl were bribed into it.
And ends up with: All we know is that people don't play it. I am probably being a bit to over the top, to categorically say most all people think it sucks. Ok. But I don't think I am stretching it to far, in saying that people don't like. 85% don't like. That's a pretty big number. Whether it's the lag, the rewards, the supers, the over/abuse of shotguns, the pace...there could be lots of reasons why people don't like it.
All I was ever saying, is that we simply don't know why ppl don't play, which you seem to agree with now. So we don't even have to discuss that part... The other thing that I said is that there is probably a bigger group of players who like it, than you think. But that they don't play for different reasons. Like the reward system. So you seem to agree with that part too. So it seems my work is done here.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 8, 2015 11:04:10 GMT -5
please don't lecture me about 'facts' and about how you aren't into speculation bs, like some holier than thou saint, ....when you are posting polls (with only like 200 people) as proof of something, as well as tossing out ridiculous comments that you have never seen an IB player below the level of 27. Bullshit meter went way off there qupie. Look in a mirror.
And if some random thoughts I post on this board, slightly change over the course of a few days....so fvcking what. This isn't some doctoral thesis review. The two thoughts aren't that much different, one (the first) just exaggerating a bit more for effect. The point still remains. Bungie themselves even admit that people don't play Crucible as much as they want. It's something like fewer than 15%. That is fact. If people aren't playing it, then something might be wrong with the game design. It's not good. That's my opinion (not a fact)
And if that above message is slightly different from the first two...it's because I don't sit here and micro-edit my words to the umpteenth degree. I just speak what's on my mind. It's just a message board.
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exxtrooper
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Post by exxtrooper on Apr 8, 2015 12:52:22 GMT -5
So what exactly is your point here in less than thirty paragraphs, 4 books, a movie and a reboot?
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 8, 2015 13:32:21 GMT -5
So what exactly is your point here in less than thirty paragraphs, 4 books, a movie and a reboot? How about this. If you are to slow to read the above, it takes you that long, maybe you should stick to something simpler like Dr Seuss? (short enough for you?)
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 8, 2015 14:04:37 GMT -5
Wow...
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 8, 2015 14:07:14 GMT -5
Weird... posts doubling then disappearing... So sorry if I have duplicated posts here (which I now can't see). Something janky going on.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 8, 2015 14:28:18 GMT -5
The forums are going sideways today
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Apr 8, 2015 14:45:52 GMT -5
I think the only way to save this thread is the nuclear option. Hope you don't mind me taking the liberty.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 8, 2015 14:59:32 GMT -5
yeah, I was getting double posts too.
But yeah, some of you guys want to be kind of dicks,(extrooper) because I expressed some strong opinions...this is what happens.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Apr 8, 2015 15:00:39 GMT -5
Not at all... I even edited this for you
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exxtrooper
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Post by exxtrooper on Apr 8, 2015 19:51:53 GMT -5
So what exactly is your point here in less than thirty paragraphs, 4 books, a movie and a reboot? How about this. If you are to slow to read the above, it takes you that long, maybe you should stick to something simpler like Dr Seuss? (short enough for you?) Norway doesn't have Dr Seuss.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 9, 2015 2:46:04 GMT -5
because I expressed some strong opinions...this is what happens. You want to make it about your strong oppinion. But it actually is not. The past two pages are about one thing, and one thing only. (IMHO) What part of the player base likes the GAMEPLAY of crusible, and what data do we have about that topic. - We have the polls I provided after a real short google search, it was all I could find. While there is some very big bias there (like I already pointed out when I posted it!!!). It is (IMHO) less confounded by some other factors. (like loot, fake accounts, people not playing the game after the first hour no matter what content, people who felt overpowered because they don't have some weapons etc etc) - We have a number of acounts which played crusible from bungie out of EVERY ACOUNT EVER MADE, in there, there are ALSO allot of confounding factors. That was my only point. You can't take such a number and imply it is because off one reason and one reason only (all those people don't like crusible gameplay). The truth is probably somewhere in the middle of those two data sets, but you immediately discredit the polls and say bungies player data is all we need on the discussion about: who likes crucible game play. Which is bogus and clearly filling in a big ass huge gap. "If you want to draw conclusions from data though, you might just want to use Bungie's own released data, which shows only like 12% of the Destiny player base plays Crucible. That's pretty much the only poll you need to know (I might be off by a few points there, going from memory). 12%? What does that tell you? And with that, that 12% is probably mostly being derived from those players being bribed to go play, to get armor or weapons."I tried to make you realize there are allot of unknown factors in there, and that you simply cannot use that number and imply "so 85% doesn't think crusible is fun" (which is clearly filling in the blanks IMHO). And then your accusing me of "filling in the blanks"? That is simply not cool bro. Now while I respect your opinion, it doesn't antagonize or hurt me one bit. What bothers me is that you state your opinion is every-bodies opinion, and then keep supporting it by clearly confounded data. Repeatedly ignoring reasoning of other ppl who give strong arguments why this data is confounded. That was all. You are of coarse allowed to change your opinion, hell, that is the reason message boards exist, to (try to) change each others opinions. But if that change is the only thing we were discussing in the first place, it gets kind of silly. There simply was no argument anymore, because from that point out we agreed. "We cannot conclude who likes and doens't like the gameplay from bungies data alone" (so we probably need additional data). All was left was you accusing people of filling in the blanks . While it actually was the other way around. I am sorry to bring it up a day after the dust had settled. I posted this yesterday but there apparently was some blue bear raging somewhere... And please don't make it about "we lovers can't handle hate" again. That was not what this (derailed) topic was about. It was about "85% doesn't like" vs "less than 85% doesn't like", and what which data implies on that. I am gonna leave it at that, I'm out. peace.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Apr 9, 2015 10:19:08 GMT -5
Percentage of time played in Crucible by month for a random sample of players on Playstation with more than 5 days hours played:
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Apr 9, 2015 10:39:58 GMT -5
Thanks for taking the time to compile that.
How did you get that data? from the destiny tracker? How big is the sample size?
7-13% spending at least 50% off their destiny time in crucible is allot more than I thought! Seems like at least 62% plays crucible at least once a month. (excluding the first month outlier)
Is it possible to exclude the weeks the IB is around? That would make a nice comparison.
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Post by iw5000 on Apr 9, 2015 12:07:43 GMT -5
qpie
you said you are 'out', but here you are still discussing it. Ok. I'l bite. In your post above, you mentioned your polls again. Let's take a look at them.
Poll 1 - A GameFag's poll on a message board, for just Xbox One. A poll of just 322 people. A poll that showed that TitanFall being the favorite of the three games by a 72% to 13% to 13% margin. On a topic of just how popular Destiny's crucible is, I'm not exactly sure how this poll is relevant to anything. Obviously, 322 is ridiculously small and mostly meaningless. Two, a 13% result for Crucible isn't exactly stating anything positive. And three, your comments comparing it to CoDAW, like that has significance, is kind of pointless. Seeing how this is a XB1 poll, and AW is pretty much viewed as being one of the worst CoD's ever made. This poll, is something you put up as proof of something? Meaningful? Helping to contribute to facts and avoid speculation?
Poll 2 - A poll created by one person on a Bungie message board. A thread with like five replies on it. A total of 213 people voting, in regards to a game that reportedly has around/between 10 to 12 million players, a majority of which never even visit a site like this. That's a 1.7 people out of 10,000 sampling. This poll, is something you put up as proof of something? Meaningful? Helping to contribute to facts and avoid speculation?
Yes, I saw your big, bolded obnoxious in my face reference to the "What part of the player base likes the GAMEPLAY of crusible, and what data do we have about that topic"....ok, I get that. Couldn't miss it. But as I said, look in a mirror. Your polls have no relevance to that point either. Nonewhatsoever.
You give me shit for using a bungie poll, saying I..... "keep supporting it by clearly confounded data"...and then give the above back to me?
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