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Post by thebb22 on Oct 6, 2017 8:42:55 GMT -5
iw5000...am I crazy or did you mention something a long time ago about being colorblind? Because you want to match the damage symbol color on your guns to the color of the shields of whatever enemies. I could see how that would probably be difficult if colorblind, in which case, there is a setting to change that.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Oct 6, 2017 8:47:14 GMT -5
I'll take a look. I coulda swore TheHawkNY saw it too........ Did you kill yourself? If I'm not mistaken, it shows your current light level as the "recommended light" when you accidentally kill yourself. I could very well be wrong. ..... I could have gotten to close with the Dubious Volley. I'll check tonight; I want to run 2 nightfalls if any PS4bros are up for it |
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 6, 2017 9:31:04 GMT -5
iw5000...am I crazy or did you mention something a long time ago about being colorblind? Because you want to match the damage symbol color on your guns to the color of the shields of whatever enemies. I could see how that would probably be difficult if colorblind, in which case, there is a setting to change that. I have a horrible time with blues and purples....and red & greens. So yeah, it becomes difficult for me at times matching stuff. It's not something I can process fast, unless I get very used to the enemies, memorizing what each is. I'll give you another example. When I do jui jitsu, I have a very hard time telling the difference between blue and purple belts. They look almost the same, especially how so many are faded, different types, etc...The belts just all look the same or just all kinds of different shades of blue. Ultimately, what works for me is just remembering the person. he's a blue, that guy is a purple, etc.. I'll look for the color blind setting. Didn't remember that was in there. |
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Oct 6, 2017 9:54:15 GMT -5
The colorblind settings weren't there when D1 released, they got added in March 2015 from the looks of it. Could be why you haven't noticed it. There's 3 or 4 different settings, hopefully one works well for you. I actually use one of them myself even though I'm not colorblind, because it makes the standard red, green, and blue on the radar a lot brighter/saturated/intense making it way easier for me to read which is especially useful in PvP. I've noticed a lot of PvPers on Twitch and Youtube seem to do the same. The standard color scheme is just a little too washed out I think.
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wings
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Post by wings on Oct 10, 2017 2:45:11 GMT -5
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Oct 10, 2017 5:28:33 GMT -5
I don't agree completely with his first point honestly, an FPS game should never let you become a god in low level environments. Those become practically useless. But he does explain why it can be a problem, and that is needs fixing in some sort of way. But I certainly don't want to become that 2000 health guardian who walks among "worthless" 200 health guardians. Stuff should be at least a little bit challenging.
His point on balance is spot on, although I am in the other camp, that balance is an improvement. They just need to fix the fun side of things. Sniper lane tactical loitering was not fun for me, even if I was the one killing it. He is right though that the new guns sometimes still feel a bit lackluster on their perks, while others are extremely well balanced (like the 450 RPM AR).
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 10, 2017 8:51:45 GMT -5
Sounds like the pvp tail is wagging is the PvE dog. I loved this in the comments  |
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Oct 10, 2017 9:24:48 GMT -5
Whatever... it's a damned if you do damned if you don't thing... If Bungie made PL relevant, than everyone would complain that they are being excluded from end game activities because they are too low of a power level. If Bungie made certain weapons awesome than others, than everyone would complain that they didn't get those weapons and thus, are being excluded... or that the only weapons are those ones and all else are garbage. Honestly, this was all beaten to death in D1... everyone hated that there was only a few guns with some specific rolls that were worth it and that people were being excluded because they didn't have certain weapons. Ultimately, Bungie did what they did and it is what it is. If the hardcore gamers don't like it: quit. They'll be back in December for the new DLC. Just in time to blow through that content and complain somemore. Honestly, I don't feel sorry for those who blow through the content and then release videos 2 maning Calus in 1 round. After all: isn't this game just about the Friendship? Whatever happened to Destinee: Friendship is Spacemagic? |
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Oct 10, 2017 10:55:03 GMT -5
Destiny: Love it or Leave it.
Bungo works so hard to provide for gamers and this is the thanks they get? Ingrates.
Play what they give you and shaddup.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Oct 10, 2017 12:19:48 GMT -5
No...
More like Destiny: It is what It is
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Oct 10, 2017 12:48:58 GMT -5
Believe what you want, but when what many would consider the best PvE player in existence feels the need to make a post like that, the game has some serious problems. People like him, esoterrick, and PvP streamers are what helped keep D1 alive through all the content droughts. When they get bored and leave, there’s not any way you can spin that as being a good thing for the game’s potential lifespan.
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malgato
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Post by malgato on Oct 10, 2017 13:36:35 GMT -5
I thought Slayerage provided thoughtful constructive criticism. It wasn't a salt filled screaming rant absent useful input. He identified some of the issues that many people have found frustration with and provided some suggestions for how things could be improved. I don't necessarily want to see everything he suggested, but I do agree that there is something lacking in the current game. That shouldn't be mistaken as a suggestion we go back to mind-numbing grinding for the perfect weapon roll by wiping over and over on Omnigul. But I think Bungie failed to fully implement a system that rewards or incentives hardcore grinders. Those people may not be the highest volume of your player base, but they are very important for the long-term longevity of the game. Sure, if all Bungie/Activision cares about is pure dollar profits, then you don't need to think about those types - you can just cater to casuals who will buy the game an dmove on - go for maximum one-time purchases. But I'd like to think that Bungie wants to craft a game that has long-term playability and a high fun factor. They seem to take pride in their game, right? I assume they are taking in the criticism and trying to filter out the crap and focus on the constructive. I think this game has need of some constructive improvements. I'm hoping the Live Team does as good a job improving things as they did with D1. But it is still frustrating that it requires Live Team mediation to fix things.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Oct 10, 2017 13:45:43 GMT -5
Here's the rub though....
1. Ultimately, if they do leave (they won't) there will another streamer to fill the void left by them. Or they'll come scurrying back when the next DLC hits. And so what... streamers stop playing: the casual fan doesn't give 2 $hits about Streamers when all the major media outlets have given D2 a favorable review. Sure, they did good stuff during the content droughts of D1. No casual fan remembers or cares about that.
2. It all goes back to the fact that D2's focus is on the casual player; pretending that it's not and wailing and raging that it's not is pissing in the wind. That's the ultimate crux of my comment... pretending D2 is D1 is just a waste of time on everyone's part. D1 streamers made their bread and butter on "This is how you farm/grind/get _____ the best way" or "God Roll weapons" or "Best class/perk setup" videos... those are irrelevant now because farming/grinding has been minimized into the ground, "God roll" doesn't exist anymore, and skill trees.
Any critique of D2 that uses the argument of "In Destiny 1...." isn't worth its salt anymore.
D2 is for the casual gamer; Streamers can wail and rail against it as much as they want. It's just not being heard by Bungie
EDIT: I will say it again... I fully expect Bungie to bring in a system in Spring 2018 that will be more grindy to get those casual gamers to play more.. and sure, appease the Touch Football gamers at the same time. But ultimately, it will be Bungie's focus to get the casuals they hooked, to play more
EDIT 2: I'm not cheerleading this decision by Bungie... but I recognize it and accept it. And a lot of hardcore streamers and players, imho, haven't accepted that yet.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Oct 10, 2017 14:36:16 GMT -5
And the crux of basically everyone else's argument is that regardless of the fact that the game is obviously geared more toward the casual player, the game absolutely goes too far in that direction. I don't think anyone has an issue with making the game more easily accessible, but you can make a game that keeps both casual and hardcore players happy at the same time. Bungie has not done that remotely. Vanilla D1 obviously swung too far in the hardcore direction, while vanilla D2 has done just the opposite. I think basically everyone recognizes and accepts that, but that doesn't mean they have to like it. Cater to casuals all you want, but understand that casuals are not going to keep your game alive in the long run.
I'll also posit that if you think the critiques of D2 are bad now, you're in for a real treat when the PC crowd blows through all the content in 2 weeks or less. The game is going to get absolutely shit on, and deservedly so.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Oct 10, 2017 15:38:27 GMT -5
And the crux of basically everyone else's argument is that regardless of the fact that the game is obviously geared more toward the casual player, the game absolutely goes too far in that direction. I don't think anyone has an issue with making the game more easily accessible, but you can make a game that keeps both casual and Touch Football players happy at the same time. Bungie has not done that remotely. Vanilla D1 obviously swung too far in the Touch Football direction, while vanilla D2 has done just the opposite. I think basically everyone recognizes and accepts that, but that doesn't mean they have to like it. Cater to casuals all you want, but understand that casuals are not going to keep your game alive in the long run. As I said, when the new DLC hits, the grind will begin. It's the perfect opportunity to "quiet" the hardcore gamers and convert the casuals into playing more. I'll also posit that if you think the critiques of D2 are bad now, you're in for a real treat when the PC crowd blows through all the content in 2 weeks or less. The game is going to get absolutely shit on, and deservedly so. Depends... if Bungie decides to make the PC base wait just as long as they had to for the release, as they do for the DLC... so after 2 weeks of the PC release, they announce the new DLC and say that all platforms will get the DLC at the same time, it'll numb the sting a bit. Furthermore, what are the expectations of Destiny on PC? I'm not a PC gamer at all, but are there? |
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Post by hebbnh on Oct 10, 2017 15:57:28 GMT -5
I mean, PC is home to the hardest of the hardcore grinders in existence pretty much, right? Players are conditioned to it after having unbelievably grindy MMOs available for years. Given that Destiny has always been billed as kind of an MMORPGFPS (not that Bungie has ever explicitly stated such, but that's seemingly the general consensus and therefore the expectation), the complete lack of any endgame even remotely resembling MMO levels is going to be an issue. Lack of private match PvP is going to be an issue. Lack of specific PvP modes in lieu of two stupid playlists that each contain a gametype that is widely disliked (Supremacy and Survival) is going to be an issue. Lack of ranked PvP is going to be an issue.
Those are all things that you can (evidently) get away with on console these days. On PC those things are a bare minimum expectation, and not having them (at least right now) is going to be met with ridicule, and frankly, it should be. There's really no excuse for not having those things. I don't think many PC players who blow through the endgame in two weeks are going to pick up a DLC 3 or 4 weeks after that, they're going to drop the game entirely and move on to one of the hundreds of other options that are more worth their time. That's my read of the situation, at least. Maybe one of the more PC-literate bros can chime in here.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Oct 10, 2017 16:20:26 GMT -5
I'll also add Cozmo's reply to the above linked Slayerage reddit post:
"Thank you for posting your feedback. This is great well-worded feedback that presents your critiques - as well as proposed solutions. I will definitely make sure it gets passed along with all of the other posts I have been sending to the dev team. I'm not making any promises that any of the changes or additions will be made that you suggested. But can assure you that we are listening to all of the community feedback and taking it into consideration."
I think the takeaway there is, regardless of anyone's personal feelings about the current state of the game, people at Bungie ARE at least seeing the feedback. The entire DTG sub going in to full-on salt mode DOES get noticed. Whether things change in the way a lot of us are hoping may or may not happen, but there's little doubt in my mind that expressing our views at least has the POTENTIAL, however small, to get some of those changes made and make the game better. Sitting back in "D2 is what D2 is, and it's casual now, too bad so sad" land does not.
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malgato
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Post by malgato on Oct 10, 2017 17:54:26 GMT -5
And the crux of basically everyone else's argument is that regardless of the fact that the game is obviously geared more toward the casual player, the game absolutely goes too far in that direction. I don't think anyone has an issue with making the game more easily accessible, but you can make a game that keeps both casual and Touch Football players happy at the same time. Bungie has not done that remotely. Vanilla D1 obviously swung too far in the Touch Football direction, while vanilla D2 has done just the opposite. I think basically everyone recognizes and accepts that, but that doesn't mean they have to like it. Cater to casuals all you want, but understand that casuals are not going to keep your game alive in the long run. I'll also posit that if you think the critiques of D2 are bad now, you're in for a real treat when the PC crowd blows through all the content in 2 weeks or less. The game is going to get absolutely shit on, and deservedly so. This I fully agree with. The point is that a game should not abandon nor exclusively cater to EITHER the casual or the hardcore - it should embrace both. Bungie has failed the hardcore in D2. Hardcore players (and I am NOT talking exclusively YouTube streamers - I include many of us here that choose to play unhealthy amounts) are the lifeblood of a franchise built on social play. You need the obsessed hardcore player to keep playing to ensure a large enough community for the social requirements of the game. Yes, there will be pulses of new/returning players every DLC. But do you want the game to be a wasteland in between? If no, then you have to find engaging and rewarding activities for the hardcore grinders. And I appreciate people like Slayerage who offer constructive criticisms of the game in the hope of seeing improvement. Just taking the attitude "It is what it is, deal with it," is neither constructive nor good for the long-term health of the game. |
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wings
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Post by wings on Oct 10, 2017 20:43:50 GMT -5
If Bungie made certain weapons awesome than others, than everyone would complain that they didn't get those weapons and thus, are being excluded... or that the only weapons are those ones and all else are garbage. Quest items were the best way to make people earn weapons and they can be designed with PvE in mind, e.g. Black Spindle. Struggling to get the gun? Get good and complete the content. In the mean time a decent 1000-Yard Stare is a perfectly fine replacement, with a decent roll that was readily available at the Vanguard frame for Legendary Marks. This is not RNG stopping players from getting it like the Gjallarhorn was in year 1. While weapon accessibility is more important in PvP, you are never going to have a balanced "box of sand" when it's a loot shooter. The people wanting super balance should play other games where the framework allows for easier implementation of balance, e.g. League Play in Black Ops 2 unlocked everything for you. This point still doesn't counter the removal of raid-specific perks on raid gear though, so it looks like the incentive to collect endgame gear has suffered as a result of Bungie not wanting people to feel left out. Hey may be if Bungie re-used more of the old emblems from D1 I can get the old Scarab emblem from Trials from an engram. |
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Oct 11, 2017 3:54:29 GMT -5
Believe what you want, but when what many would consider the best PvE player in existence feels the need to make a post like that, the game has some serious problems. People like him, esoterrick, and PvP streamers are what helped keep D1 alive through all the content droughts. When they get bored and leave, there’s not any way you can spin that as being a good thing for the game’s potential lifespan. On the PvE side of things I agree. They went (far) too casual, but I honestly do think this version is a better platform to build on with future DLC. They should absolutely bring back things like raid perks and increase the mod and weapon inventory by a ton. I love that random guns are gun, random can't really be balanced. But I hate how little weapons there are. There should be 5x more weapons. Or simply multiple versions of the same weapon with set (balanced) perks. The PvP streamers leaving are just but-hurt they can't be the sole team carrying hero anymore. Or use their beloved hand cannons as a primary (still a great weapon, but has a different role now). Players who coordinate greatly with a team are still there, and seem to be having a lot of fun. For example GrenaderJake. The crucible went through quite a lot of changes, and it is natural that the players who played the most of D1 learning and practicing everything into the little details, will leave the second because "it just isn't the same". |
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Oct 11, 2017 4:07:12 GMT -5
And the crux of basically everyone else's argument is that regardless of the fact that the game is obviously geared more toward the casual player, the game absolutely goes too far in that direction. I don't think anyone has an issue with making the game more easily accessible, but you can make a game that keeps both casual and Touch Football players happy at the same time. Bungie has not done that remotely. Vanilla D1 obviously swung too far in the Touch Football direction, while vanilla D2 has done just the opposite. I think basically everyone recognizes and accepts that, but that doesn't mean they have to like it. Cater to casuals all you want, but understand that casuals are not going to keep your game alive in the long run. As I said, when the new DLC hits, the grind will begin. It's the perfect opportunity to "quiet" the Touch Football gamers and convert the casuals into playing more. Lets fucking hope so |
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Oct 11, 2017 4:17:08 GMT -5
If Bungie made certain weapons awesome than others, than everyone would complain that they didn't get those weapons and thus, are being excluded... or that the only weapons are those ones and all else are garbage. Quest items were the best way to make people earn weapons and they can be designed with PvE in mind, e.g. Black Spindle. Struggling to get the gun? Get good and complete the content. In the mean time a decent 1000-Yard Stare is a perfectly fine replacement, with a decent roll that was readily available at the Vanguard frame for Legendary Marks. This is not RNG stopping players from getting it like the Gjallarhorn was in year 1. While weapon accessibility is more important in PvP, you are never going to have a balanced "box of sand" when it's a loot shooter. The people wanting super balance should play other games where the framework allows for easier implementation of balance, e.g. League Play in Black Ops 2 unlocked everything for you. This point still doesn't counter the removal of raid-specific perks on raid gear though, so it looks like the incentive to collect endgame gear has suffered as a result of Bungie not wanting people to feel left out. Hey may be if Bungie re-used more of the old emblems from D1 I can get the old Scarab emblem from Trials from an engram. While I am super glad weapons like gjallarhorn, black hammer and fatebringer are gone (why would you use anything else, in a loot shooter!!! you should be able to try out different weapons). I don't care if they come from a quest or RNG, if they make all other weapons obsolete, there is something wrong in a game with tons (  ) of weapons. I do agree that is no excuse at all to release activity specific gear. They should have created raid gear, public event gear per planet and nightfall gear. Or heck, make all those mods and give us some more mod slots on armor. Make mods end game rewards |
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 11, 2017 7:52:24 GMT -5
Whatever... it's a gosh darn golly gee whized if you do gosh darn golly gee whized if you don't thing... If Bungie made certain weapons awesome than others, than everyone would complain that they didn't get those weapons and thus, are being excluded... Disagree. Terms like 'everyone' shouldn't be used. There are people that had VERY valid reasons. People like me (I'm a perfect example), playing 'loot based' game, logging in hundreds and hundreds of hours, and never getting a fvcking gun like the Ghorn. A gun that some people got doing the exact same tasks, four, five, six time over. There's zero excuses for that from a design standpoint. And that didn't make me a whiner. Amd it DID affect how I liked to play the game. I really got into doing the Destiny Raid solo stuff with Destiny 1. I got decent at it. I was close to getting the second Raid done solo, and well....I never got the opportunity because I never got the GHorn. That really affected gameplay. I fnd this to be ridiculously stupid and Bungie deserves every bit of hate they get for their flawed loot system in that first version. It's one (of a few) reasons why I threw the first game in the garbage. |
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Oct 11, 2017 10:28:55 GMT -5
I partially agree with you iw, but I don't think anybody should get that OP weapon. That OP weapon should simply not exist in the first place, or there should be multiple which all can do comparable things (and at least one of them should be relatively easy to obtain).
Gjallar made D1 boring as hell for me. Sure if you want to do stuff like solo a raid it was the best weapon in the game and an actual blessing. But it also made you use the weapon in every other instance or you would actively neuter your own slaying abilities.
The problems introduced by not having it were a secondary problem imho. It simply should not have existed, and be nerfed right off the bat as soon as its power became apparent.
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wings
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Post by wings on Oct 12, 2017 6:05:57 GMT -5
While I am super glad weapons like gjallarhorn, black hammer and fatebringer are gone (why would you use anything else, in a loot shooter!!! you should be able to try out different weapons). I don't care if they come from a quest or RNG, if they make all other weapons obsolete, there is something wrong in a game with tons ( ) of weapons. I do agree that is no excuse at all to release activity specific gear. They should have created raid gear, public event gear per planet and nightfall gear. Or heck, make all those mods and give us some more mod slots on armor. Make mods end game rewards The thing is there will always be top tier weapons but Destiny does suffer from having even fewer top tier weapons than other loot shooters. That's why I asked if you a while back if you played Borderlands 2 because Axton has the least viable loadouts for UVHM out of all the characters and you still have options to use a gazillion weapons when you compare it to top tier weapons in Destiny, and that's on top of Borderlands 2 being balanced for TVHM (an earlier play through). I don't think Gjallarhorn should have allowed players to negate mechanics of encounters by outburning the boss, e.g. Skolas. Bungie were at fault for allowing this nonsense to continue. Black Hammer shouldn't have been as effective as it was if encounters were designed a bit better. For example, Urrox shouldn't have ever been able to get stun-locked by it. Bungie at least addressed that issue with future engagements, like the Warpriest having an immune stage after a while. Fatebringer was made more OP than needed because arc burn was popular in Nightfall rotations. It always made me smile when I hear someone raid with me in VoG struggling with primary ammo against Oracles because I know they're using Fatebringer when Vision of Confluence and Atheon's Epilogue are better choices. Same when players blow themselves up with rockets by the detainment shield against the Templar. Machine guns are much safer. I've always been an advocate of Nightfall specific gear to reflect the perceived difficulty of the event. While you can get good modifiers, I wouldn't be surprised to see most weeks for Nightfall are harder than the raid. And Nightfall doesn't have anything unique to it as far as rewards go, compared to the raid. Speaking of difficulty, public events can be nuts. A few days ago I was at Exodus Black doing the Ether Resupply event. I activated the Heroic, the Vex and Fallen decided to wage war against each other, a Despoiler Captain was launching missiles from behind, and a Roving Band of Pikes decided to join in. I forgot I was the only person in my instance so I couldn't beat it. Even if I had help from others that would feel more difficult than anything the raid has thrown at me. The amusing thing with Bungie's new stance on making stuff accessible is they forgot about Hunter armour having recovery. Last time I played the Crucible with my Hunter I had 0 recovery and it reminded me of the days of triple Sunsingers with Thorn and Firebolts. |
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Oct 12, 2017 8:25:09 GMT -5
I don't know, there are a damn lot of top tier PvE weapons right now. Almost anything is viable at the moment for PvE.
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 12, 2017 8:26:47 GMT -5
I partially agree with you iw, but I don't think anybody should get that OP weapon. That OP weapon should simply not exist in the first place, or there should be multiple which all can do comparable things (and at least one of them should be relatively easy to obtain). Gjallar made D1 boring as hell for me. Sure if you want to do stuff like solo a raid it was the best weapon in the game and an actual blessing. But it also made you use the weapon in every other instance or you would actively neuter your own slaying abilities. The problems introduced by not having it were a secondary problem imho. It simply should not have existed, and be nerfed right off the bat as soon as its power became apparent. Well... 1. I would have LOVED to have been bored blowing up shit with the Ghorn. I would have loved to have been bored seeing it drop for the sixth or seventh time in my lap upon doing activities, something I saw with numerous friends. Them laughing it up over and over and over and over, " hahahah, I just got the Ghorn again. This is my fifth one, hahahaha" 2. Instead, I had to watch those dipshits at Destiny KNOW perfectly well the GHorn was overpowered, and try to resolve it by limiting it's availability in the population of players by rigging the odds. If you had one....you had normal odds of winning it again. Which is why we routinely saw people who had one, often got another. If you didn't have one early one, you instead got stuck with later coded rigged odds that enforced you never winning one. Which is why people like me (and many others) never got one, despite playing a grotesque number of hours at this game. I'm a paying customer. I don't appreciate those assholes at Bungie wasting my time by employing the above dirty coding tricks. Seriously, just thinking about this more, the time I wasted....I would love an opportunity to just beat the living fvck out of those people at Bungie. I hate them. And I don't use that word often. I have no respect for these people. Whether or not the above OP weapons should have ever been in the game, I don't know. Maybe not? But it's a moot point because they were. |
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Post by GodMars on Oct 12, 2017 9:27:46 GMT -5
You know what would shut me up? Weapon and armor skins I can earn through completing challenges, like we do in CoD. As many of you know, one of the main things that keeps me playing CoD for several months after release is my driving need to gold every gun. It’s a simple mechanic that works really well.
You’d think Bungie was new to this game if you didn’t know better.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Oct 12, 2017 9:35:00 GMT -5
You know what would shut me up? Weapon and armor skins I can earn through completing challenges, like we do in CoD. As many of you know, one of the main things that keeps me playing CoD for several months after release is my driving need to gold every gun. It’s a simple mechanic that works really well. You’d think Bungie was new to this game if you didn’t know better. You know what I noticed about myself? (and I actually find that quite childish). I honestly don't really care for camos, at all, as long as there is no killcam. I want to show them off, I don't really care how my own gun looks.... But I agree, PvP challenges would be a great addition unlocking stuff (like emblems). It is why I almost only play trials though. It is the only PvP gametype in which winning does actually do something |
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Post by GodMars on Oct 12, 2017 9:39:33 GMT -5
The camos aren’t actually a cosmetic thing for me, per se; it’s more about it saying “I’ve mastered this weapon.” It’s a completion thing. The camo is just the bling that signifies this accomplishment.
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) of weapons. 
