|
|
Post by blackbarney on Oct 29, 2017 12:29:30 GMT -5
Great article, there’s a reason I could have a blast playing solo CoD compared to Destiny or Halo. Being able to flank and kill a squad is really fun. I don’t find you can do that in Battlefield either, maps are too big and you really need teamwork to win
|
|
wings
True Bro
Posts: 3,776
|
Post by wings on Oct 29, 2017 13:39:39 GMT -5
Great article, there’s a reason I could have a blast playing solo CoD compared to Destiny or Halo. Being able to flank and kill a squad is really fun. I don’t find you can do that in Battlefield either, maps are too big and you really need teamwork to win Looking at the thread author's analysis when looking at other shooters is actually quite telling. I've always had a fairly good guess at Destiny players' previous shooter backgrounds based on their ideas of 'balance' and whatnot. It seems I like the idea of having shotguns, fusion and sniper rifles as special weapons because it felt empowering and I could make exceptional individual plays to defy the odds when being outnumbered. I still remember seeing Ramblinnn's top play in Trials on Widow's Court juking Sunsingers with Nightstalker. I used to make squads rage quit in Black Ops II in TDM because they were too used to directional spawns from Domination etc. So it looks like the players with Halo backgrounds have probably had their wish with OHK weapons being power weapons now. While many players from military shooters probably think players critical of OHK weapons are usually Leeroy Jenkins. But this change has made Guardians weak in PvE as a consequence. |
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Oct 30, 2017 8:59:01 GMT -5
This probably explains why I probably don't play Crucible much in Destiny 2. Interesting article. This is a complex topic but the above is most definitely a big factor, although I'm not sure how much that alone affects popularity. I think these other factors are huge too.... 1) Have a mercenary mode like CoD. All solo people playing and no grouped teams allowed. This would be much more fair. If you have three random teammates and all three are doing separate things, running around like chickens with their heads cut off, you can only be so effective versus another group. And I would say at least half my solo playing games are against other groups. You just can't do much with them, other than use teammates as bait. As the article says...you can't flank another group. It's instant death. And to do so in Mercenary just gives up your tag, which is even more stupid. So one is forced to follow one of your teammates. But without mic's, even that is sketchy. 2) Pick your game mode. My stats are significantly higher on Control. I like that mode. Why can't I play it more? You can pick what you want in CoD, why not here? So let me play Control when I want. That game mode helps me play with randoms much better, as it forces a bit of order to other randoms playing with you and better predicts the spawns. it would help ease the 'solos vs group' issue. 3) Power weapons on walls are stupid. Yes, it does force enemies to engage with you, creates some action . . . but . . .it also creates action amongst your own teammates. I'm personally sick and tired of fighting with my teammates to get a power weapon. Two or three guys humping a wall to get something, all trying to steal from each other. Why? This is insanely stupid. 4) People compare supers to CoD's killstreaks, but even that's a bit silly. Everyone gets a super a game regardless of what they do. Some may get one sooner (or even two of them if they do really well)...but we all get one. So there is no good feeling to be had by getting one. Compare to CoD? There's that brief feeling of elation when getting something. Whether a UAV or something high like a chopper. But at least you get a feeling of elation, as you EARNED IT. Couple that with the annoyance of watching a 5-16 crappy player getting a free super, flying around like some witch getting instant kills solely because it's his turn for a super. Lame. 5) Allow more customizing on one's setups with counter-mods and other things. Let us BUY what we need with glimmer or other currency (like legendary shards). Instead, in D2, I have to sit around fvcking waiting for a god gosh darn golly gee whiz lucky loot drop to give me the recoil mod on my AR. This is also insanely stupid. CoD has some gating involved, but within a certain time, you can pretty much customize your character to how you want to play. You cant' do this in D2. You have to wait, and wait, and wait, and grind, and grind, and pray you get good mods. Fvck you bungie. This alone is a valid enough reason for the crucible to die off. 6) Jet packs. At the end of the day, the more flying in the air, the less people like the FPS. There is no real fix to this, flying is part of Destiny. Flying + consoles + controllers = bad mix. It's just not good, unless you are one of those people using XIM or other mods and have a leg up on people. That said, jet packs in D2 aren't anywhere as bad as exo suits in some of the CoDs. D2 is no where as close to being as bad as CoD's past Adv Warfare. 7) Poor stat keeping. People love stats. The more the merrier. D2 has no stat keeping. It's simply terrible. If CoD dropped something as basic as this, it would be ridiculed as being trash by every reviewer out there. That's enough for now. :-( 7. |
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Oct 30, 2017 9:54:43 GMT -5
Maybe better than well enough. It predicted the winner in 17 of 18 games in just that small sample I looked at. Remember that one time we "played" Trials? I looked at the ELOs afterwards, and we were longshots in every match. The ELO differences were huge (if I remember right, I think the teams we were facing were all solidly in the 1500s, compared to our 1000-1100 ratings). Something seems off with that whole ELO system. From the standpoint of it's ability to predict success in a match. Even this morning. I played three games before work. The ELO system was 3 for 3 in predicting success. So far, from my own checking of results, the ELO predictor is something like 27 for 28 in predicting who will win. That's a bit absurd. How can anything predict success with a 96% rate? The only thing I can think of, to explain this away, is that ELO is tied to winning (as it clearly states), so the ELO predictor is maybe by default simply measuring who is grouped up. If you play grouped up, you win more. And then you have higher ELO's. Therefore, it simply is picking who is grouped, versus who is made up of randoms? If the above is true, that doesn't say much for game itself. Whoever teams up, wins. And it's true close to 100% of the time (or at least 98%) The above doesn't seem to explain everything though. |
|
markopolo
True Bro
Once a LMG Camper, Then a Voidlock, Now a Lexington 25-8-366 Runner
Posts: 5,567
|
Post by markopolo on Oct 30, 2017 10:15:18 GMT -5
This probably explains why I probably don't play Crucible much in Destiny 2. Interesting article. This is a complex topic but the above is most definitely a big factor, although I'm not sure how much that alone affects popularity. I think these other factors are huge too.... 1) Have a mercenary mode like CoD. All solo people playing and no grouped teams allowed. This would be much more fair. If you have three random teammates and all three are doing separate things, running around like chickens with their heads cut off, you can only be so effective versus another group. And I would say at least half my solo playing games are against other groups. You just can't do much with them, other than use teammates as bait. As the article says...you can't flank another group. It's instant death. And to do so in Mercenary just gives up your tag, which is even more stupid. So one is forced to follow one of your teammates. But without mic's, even that is sketchy. 2) Pick your game mode. My stats are significantly higher on Control. I like that mode. Why can't I play it more? You can pick what you want in CoD, why not here? So let me play Control when I want. That game mode helps me play with randoms much better, as it forces a bit of order to other randoms playing with you and better predicts the spawns. it would help ease the 'solos vs group' issue. 3) Power weapons on walls are stupid. Yes, it does force enemies to engage with you, creates some action . . . but . . .it also creates action amongst your own teammates. I'm personally sick and tired of fighting with my teammates to get a power weapon. Two or three guys humping a wall to get something, all trying to steal from each other. Why? This is insanely stupid. 4) People compare supers to CoD's killstreaks, but even that's a bit silly. Everyone gets a super a game regardless of what they do. Some may get one sooner (or even two of them if they do really well)...but we all get one. So there is no good feeling to be had by getting one. Compare to CoD? There's that brief feeling of elation when getting something. Whether a UAV or something high like a chopper. But at least you get a feeling of elation, as you EARNED IT. Couple that with the annoyance of watching a 5-16 crappy player getting a free super, flying around like some witch getting instant kills solely because it's his turn for a super. Lame. 5) Allow more customizing on one's setups with counter-mods and other things. Let us BUY what we need with glimmer or other currency (like legendary shards). Instead, in D2, I have to sit around fvcking waiting for a god gosh darn golly gee whiz lucky loot drop to give me the recoil mod on my AR. This is also insanely stupid. CoD has some gating involved, but within a certain time, you can pretty much customize your character to how you want to play. You cant' do this in D2. You have to wait, and wait, and wait, and grind, and grind, and pray you get good mods. Fvck you bungie. This alone is a valid enough reason for the crucible to die off. 6) Jet packs. At the end of the day, the more flying in the air, the less people like the FPS. There is no real fix to this, flying is part of Destiny. Flying + consoles + controllers = bad mix. It's just not good, unless you are one of those people using XIM or other mods and have a leg up on people. That said, jet packs in D2 aren't anywhere as bad as exo suits in some of the CoDs. D2 is no where as close to being as bad as CoD's past Adv Warfare. 7) Poor stat keeping. People love stats. The more the merrier. D2 has no stat keeping. It's simply terrible. If CoD dropped something as basic as this, it would be ridiculed as being trash by every reviewer out there. That's enough for now. :-( 7. Maybe it's my lack of skill or whatever... but solowise and grouped up wise... I actually enjoy Crucible in D2. I'm not being a cheerleader or a fanboy... this is just my experience so far: 1. I like the fact that the grenade spam is gone... skip grenades that go across the map... axion bolts that chase you for an eternity... gjallienades that just totally f$$k you up.... Titansnades that.... titans have had $hit grenades unless you're too stupid to have your entire team just run in to a pulse grenade and die like bradman in D1 IB would get quadkills at Nauseum on Twilight Gap. 2. The complete lack of snipers also is refreshing. Not turning a corner and getting shot accross the map is a breath of fresh air. 3. I would concur that it would be nice to know the game mode a bit sooner. Just so I can switch my loadout sooner. 4. Supers are not god mode anymore... If I see that someone has popped their super, there's a 40/60 chance that I can take them out in D2... in d1, f$$k that: someone pops their super and you just run like f$$k. Especially hammerbros and Palpatines... in D2, unless they're blinking, I have a solid chance of taking them down. 5. The return of the autorifle is really really fun. I never did Crucible in the prenerf Suros days... but I've heard that this is sorta what it's like. 6. The lack of "wtf"/Cheesy deaths... I know how I die each time in D2. In D1, every game there would be at least 2 or 3 moments where I would not know how I died... That has probably only happened 5 or 6 times in all of D2. oh, and #7 7) The incredible decline of the Teabagging, Like, in quickplay and competitive game modes, it's all but gone... #RIPinPeaceTBagrz Now, this could all be that I'm a poorer player so I get matched up against poorer players... or I'm matched up against Canadians and their internet providers have muskrats on their wheels that power their bandwidth and I have full on 1080 Otter power... or their ethernet cables are not as well greased in blubber because it's not yet full on winter and some people wait to blubber up their routers, or some use an all season blubber rather than replacing their blubber for the change of season (me... once you've changed your fall to winter blubber, you can totally see a difference... I don't know how some of my canadian brethren live with 4 season-Muskrat internet... I mean, I get it that it's more expensive and sometimes, you need a bigger dogsled to carry that much blubber and that it's a bit heavier so the dogs have to work harder... but the ends do justify the means, and thank god we're passing a law that will bring them in to the 1900's to help them out... but some people just don't want to change... c'est la vie) |
|
|
|
Post by TheHawkNY on Oct 30, 2017 10:23:10 GMT -5
Remember that one time we "played" Trials? I looked at the ELOs afterwards, and we were longshots in every match. The ELO differences were huge (if I remember right, I think the teams we were facing were all solidly in the 1500s, compared to our 1000-1100 ratings). Something seems off with that whole ELO system. From the standpoint of it's ability to predict success in a match. Even this morning. I played three games before work. The ELO system was 3 for 3 in predicting success. So far, from my own checking of results, the ELO predictor is something like 27 for 28 in predicting who will win. That's a bit absurd. How can anything predict success with a 96% rate? The only thing I can think of, to explain this away, is that ELO is tied to winning (as it clearly states), so the ELO predictor is maybe by default simply measuring who is grouped up. If you play grouped up, you win more. And then you have higher ELO's. Therefore, it simply is picking who is grouped, versus who is made up of randoms? If the above is true, that doesn't say much for game itself. Whoever teams up, wins. And it's true close to 100% of the time (or at least 98%) The above doesn't seem to explain everything though. I took a look at DTR's estimates for some of my games. They seemed to be pretty accurate for games in the quickplay playlist, but not nearly as accurate for games in the Iron Banner playlist. The obvious difference between the two is that Iron Banner has skill-based matchmaking, while quickplay does not. As the discrepancy in skill increases, the games become easier to predict. I think grouping up is correlated with winning, not necessarily a cause of winning. The people that I see grouped up are generally the people that are more skilled at the game. |
|
|
|
Post by Pegasus Actual on Oct 30, 2017 10:31:04 GMT -5
So you think gamepad + aim assist gives advantage over M&K - aim assist? That is not what I have heard from most (all of them really) players I think that it might be the case at least for a significant portion of the skill curve. Some PC elitists act like everyone has pro level counterstrike aim and just won't miss any shots. From my (comically brief, so take my opinion for what it's worth) time with D2 Crucible it seems like the most important ability is to string 4-5 shots together in a row. I'm talking in terms of like a mid to long range scout rifle fight. Which was 90 percent of what I did. PC players act like they can hit those all shots but they really can't, if both dudes are strafing, the m+k will miss a shot or two. The controller aim assist is a bit more all or nothing. If you get on target with your first shot, chances are you are going to hit all your follow up shots assuming you're decent with a controller. Because the aim assist will track the target for you for a time. So if you fire while tracking a guy to your right, and he strafes to your left just before you shoot, your reticule will track and you will still get the shot. And if your reaction time is decent the shot after that will be on target as well. In the same situation m+k you will miss the transition strafe shot unless you happen to guess correctly, and you need to perfectly track the followup shot. If a gamepad player nails their first shot they are in a better position than an m+k who hits their first shot. And if they miss their first shot they have a larger window to disengage than an m+k player would on average. I think the gamepad player gets an overall advantage even if you grant that the m+k player will land more first shots of an engagement. I think most people would agree that there's a tipping point with dialing up aim assist where gamepad is just plain better. Even if you don't think D2 is at that point, it's undeniable sometimes that a really good mouse player is going to hit 4/5 really tough shots 1v1 against a mediocre gamepad user who does one nice stick flick, and then sticky aims his way for 5/5 shots. |
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Oct 30, 2017 11:00:03 GMT -5
Hawk...I spent about 20 minutes and figured it out.
Destiny Tracker doesn't seem to give a overall ELO Rating. It only gives a rating per game type. My top three ELO ratings are:
1464 - Clash
1455 - Iron Banner (which was all control game mode, where I played some group play)
1358 - Control
1245 - Supremacy
1050 - Trials (I've only played like 10 games here)
Here's a quirky thing that needs explained with Destiny Tracker.
When you look at the end game score sheet on DestinyTracker, it shows all the post game stats. A recap. It also shows the ELO rankings for each member of your team, as well as a team average. Here's the thing....the final ELO ratings for individuals and average ELO for your team, shows the POST game ELO scores. So that scorecard is INCLUDING the results of the game. That's a bit back-wards, but whatever.
So for an example. On my last game today of control. My team won 93-43. My scoresheet shows an ELO rating of 1358 for me. That's after the match. The pre-game rating was actually 1310 (which isn't shown anywhere). Because my team won, each member of my team ALL got +48 points added to their ELO. So my whole team got +48 points. The scoresheet shows my team average ELO of 1298. The thing is, that's post game. The actual PRE-GAME ELO ranking was really 1250 (which isn't shown)
The losing side? They all lost -51 ELO points due to the loss.The scorecard shows their team average ELO as being 1135. Their actual ELO going into the game was really 1186.
So ELO not only awards for a win...but also for margin for victory. Typically 10 pts to 100 points.
So pre-game, the two squads actually had an average team ELO ratings of 1250 vs 1186. So you have to be careful when viewing post game scorecards. The team scores INCLUDE the adjustments to the players accounting for their win (or loss). The pre-match team averages will always be a bit closer than the post game score card appears.
|
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Oct 30, 2017 11:00:53 GMT -5
The TLDR version.
Destiny Tracker's post game scorecard shows team averages. This features also predicts the winner of a match, assigning odds. The problem is there appears to be some confirmation bias going on. The predictor uses team averages, that reflect +/- adjusts to the team's ELO average, AFTER the results of that game.
So if we had two teams.
Team A - ELO = 1210
Team B - ELO = 1240
Team B should be the favorite.
Team A wins the game 70-50. The ELO averages now change for the team
Team A: +40 pts. ELO = 1250
Team B: -50 pts, ELO = 1190
The problem is the predictor doesn't say Team B was the favorite. The Tracker predictor will say Team A was the favorite because it has a higher rating. So Team A is predicted to win. Well, ok, but that's not really fair predicting the win, because it's predicting after the results tweaked the average ELO score of the team. This confirmation bias is going to skew prediction results anytime two teams are within say 50 to 100 points of each other.
|
|
|
|
Post by TheHawkNY on Oct 30, 2017 11:33:54 GMT -5
That's a good point, I didn't initially notice it was using the post-game ELO for the calculations.
|
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Oct 30, 2017 11:39:05 GMT -5
That's a good point, I didn't initially notice it was using the post-game ELO for the calculations. So it's no wonder the DT predictor is able to predict close to a 100% success rate. Any two teams close to each other, it's more or less predicting the winner after it knows the winner lol. and more than a couple hundred point difference? There's probably a huge correlation between high ELO's and group play. High average ELO score most likely means a group. And a group together will beat randoms most of the time. According to DT, it seems like almost all the time in this game. If this is true, that kind of sucks. This needs to be addressed. |
|
|
|
Post by TheHawkNY on Oct 30, 2017 12:48:36 GMT -5
That's a good point, I didn't initially notice it was using the post-game ELO for the calculations. So it's no wonder the DT predictor is able to predict close to a 100% success rate. Any two teams close to each other, it's more or less predicting the winner after it knows the winner lol. and more than a couple hundred point difference? There's probably a huge correlation between high ELO's and group play. High average ELO score most likely means a group. And a group together will beat randoms most of the time. According to DT, it seems like almost all the time in this game. If this is true, that kind of sucks. This needs to be addressed. That is literally how it should be. The playlist without skill-based matchmaking should match players regardless of skill level. If you want to have an even match, there's the Competitive playlist. |
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Oct 30, 2017 13:05:36 GMT -5
Agree.
You can't have stats, if you have SBMM. KD, W/L, etc...all these are mostly irrelevant if one is constantly being placed against equal skill. What's the point? If the SBMM is doing it's job, everyone should have mostly a 1.0 in every stat. Competitive playlist should have a ranking system with SBMM (ELO, ladder, etc..) and then a regular playlist with randomized matchmaking.
I don't agree with the group thing though. As someone who has been on both sides of the fence with this one (playing lots of group plus lots of solo). It should be separated.
|
|
wings
True Bro
Posts: 3,776
|
Post by wings on Oct 31, 2017 2:41:54 GMT -5
This probably explains why I probably don't play Crucible much in Destiny 2. Interesting article. This is a complex topic but the above is most definitely a big factor, although I'm not sure how much that alone affects popularity. I think these other factors are huge too.... 1) Have a mercenary mode like CoD. All solo people playing and no grouped teams allowed. This would be much more fair. If you have three random teammates and all three are doing separate things, running around like chickens with their heads cut off, you can only be so effective versus another group. And I would say at least half my solo playing games are against other groups. You just can't do much with them, other than use teammates as bait. As the article says...you can't flank another group. It's instant death. And to do so in Mercenary just gives up your tag, which is even more stupid. So one is forced to follow one of your teammates. But without mic's, even that is sketchy. 2) Pick your game mode. My stats are significantly higher on Control. I like that mode. Why can't I play it more? You can pick what you want in CoD, why not here? So let me play Control when I want. That game mode helps me play with randoms much better, as it forces a bit of order to other randoms playing with you and better predicts the spawns. it would help ease the 'solos vs group' issue. 3) Power weapons on walls are stupid. Yes, it does force enemies to engage with you, creates some action . . . but . . .it also creates action amongst your own teammates. I'm personally sick and tired of fighting with my teammates to get a power weapon. Two or three guys humping a wall to get something, all trying to steal from each other. Why? This is insanely stupid. 4) People compare supers to CoD's killstreaks, but even that's a bit silly. Everyone gets a super a game regardless of what they do. Some may get one sooner (or even two of them if they do really well)...but we all get one. So there is no good feeling to be had by getting one. Compare to CoD? There's that brief feeling of elation when getting something. Whether a UAV or something high like a chopper. But at least you get a feeling of elation, as you EARNED IT. Couple that with the annoyance of watching a 5-16 crappy player getting a free super, flying around like some witch getting instant kills solely because it's his turn for a super. Lame. 5) Allow more customizing on one's setups with counter-mods and other things. Let us BUY what we need with glimmer or other currency (like legendary shards). Instead, in D2, I have to sit around fvcking waiting for a god gosh darn golly gee whiz lucky loot drop to give me the recoil mod on my AR. This is also insanely stupid. CoD has some gating involved, but within a certain time, you can pretty much customize your character to how you want to play. You cant' do this in D2. You have to wait, and wait, and wait, and grind, and grind, and pray you get good mods. Fvck you bungie. This alone is a valid enough reason for the crucible to die off. 6) Jet packs. At the end of the day, the more flying in the air, the less people like the FPS. There is no real fix to this, flying is part of Destiny. Flying + consoles + controllers = bad mix. It's just not good, unless you are one of those people using XIM or other mods and have a leg up on people. That said, jet packs in D2 aren't anywhere as bad as exo suits in some of the CoDs. D2 is no where as close to being as bad as CoD's past Adv Warfare. 7) Poor stat keeping. People love stats. The more the merrier. D2 has no stat keeping. It's simply terrible. If CoD dropped something as basic as this, it would be ridiculed as being trash by every reviewer out there. That's enough for now. :-( 7. 1. Destiny 1 had a solo only playlist called Freelance. It didn't last long because Bungie generally speaking hates solo players. The best way to cater for solo players in Destiny 2 would be to bring down the time to kill but Bungie won't do that. Destiny 1 at launch had a nice time to kill where it was between COD and Halo. Now it's just Halo that isn't exclusive to Xbox. Even the change of OHK weapons from the special slot to the heavy gives that impression, not just the increased in time to kill. 2. Bungie decided to only have two playlists because of supposed player fragmentation. It's more likely that technical issues are dictating this whether it's their wonky matchmaking and/or netcode. 3. I'd have thought having ammo go straight into inventory over time would be better. This could also help PvE over power ammo hungry encounters like the Royal Pools on prestige mode. So long as RNG is involved in having power ammo to drop to start with, then the completion of the encounter will not be totally skill based due to the offset of RNG. And if pulse grenades get nerfed, the Royal Pools will be even more of a power ammo hungry encounter than it already is. 4. To be honest, bad players getting Supers aren't a big deal. There's a chance you're winning the match anyway. That said, the way it is in Destiny 2 means you rarely get a second Super so you can't turn the tide of the match, for example. I do think better players should be able to get more than one Super because, quite frankly, you are not going to have 'balance' in an RPG/MMO-esque shooter so features that make Destiny what it is, should be embraced and enhanced, not neutered so its players think it's another shooter. 5. Yeah the mod system is stupid. 7. This is probably Bungie's stance against "anti-elitism" despite allowing third party sites access to track stats to start with. Look at the raid, you don't even have to have participated in the raid to get stuff from it. And the armour on it is bad. There are no raid-specific perks and the people who who are most vocal in support of this are the ones least likely to complete the raid on prestige mode from the ones I've seen anyway. And speaking of prestige, the emblem doesn't track how many completions you have for the prestige raid because it's a blue quality emblem (only purple quality ones can track stats AFAIK). And the thing with the armour is that you are actually handicapping yourself in the raid if you equip it, at least for Titans and Hunters. So why bother going for it? Wrath of the Machine had the armour done right. Would love to see Bungie try and play the prestige raid and see if they feel rewarded for completing it, assuming they get that far. |
|
wings
True Bro
Posts: 3,776
|
Post by wings on Oct 31, 2017 5:38:44 GMT -5
2. The complete lack of snipers also is refreshing. Not turning a corner and getting shot accross the map is a breath of fresh air. Snipers in Destiny are, usually, as good as the opponents will let them, since the maps themselves don't usually cater towards snipers outright. I don't think players who run into likely snipe lines Leeroy Jenkins' style should be allowed to have snipers effectively removed from the game. Bungie have already given them scope glare to hand hold players out of sight lines that will be overlooked by snipers when players should learn that by either being killed, or know it beforehand. They shouldn't be given the leg-up of the glare beforehand. It reminds me of the crybaby COD players who get mad at being killed by shotguns and sniper rifles. Now that Bungie have moved sniper rifles to the power slot they're rarely worth using for PvE. |
|
qupie
True Bro
Posts: 12,400
|
Post by qupie on Oct 31, 2017 7:12:20 GMT -5
So you think gamepad + aim assist gives advantage over M&K - aim assist? That is not what I have heard from most (all of them really) players I think that it might be the case at least for a significant portion of the skill curve. Some PC elitists act like everyone has pro level counterstrike aim and just won't miss any shots. From my (comically brief, so take my opinion for what it's worth) time with D2 Crucible it seems like the most important ability is to string 4-5 shots together in a row. I'm talking in terms of like a mid to long range scout rifle fight. Which was 90 percent of what I did. PC players act like they can hit those all shots but they really can't, if both dudes are strafing, the m+k will miss a shot or two. The controller aim assist is a bit more all or nothing. If you get on target with your first shot, chances are you are going to hit all your follow up shots assuming you're decent with a controller. Because the aim assist will track the target for you for a time. So if you fire while tracking a guy to your right, and he strafes to your left just before you shoot, your reticule will track and you will still get the shot. And if your reaction time is decent the shot after that will be on target as well. In the same situation m+k you will miss the transition strafe shot unless you happen to guess correctly, and you need to perfectly track the followup shot. If a gamepad player nails their first shot they are in a better position than an m+k who hits their first shot. And if they miss their first shot they have a larger window to disengage than an m+k player would on average. I think the gamepad player gets an overall advantage even if you grant that the m+k player will land more first shots of an engagement. I think most people would agree that there's a tipping point with dialing up aim assist where gamepad is just plain better. Even if you don't think D2 is at that point, it's undeniable sometimes that a really good mouse player is going to hit 4/5 really tough shots 1v1 against a mediocre gamepad user who does one nice stick flick, and then sticky aims his way for 5/5 shots. While I think your general theory is sound, I don't think that goes for the average skill level. I feel that a threshold point would be somewhere in the noob skill curve, not the average gamer. I have seen console players (like N kuch) who have barely any playtime on PC and they are already hitting more shots on PC than I do on console. Now I am no PvP god, but am at least above the skill curve. I have played some CoD on PC every once in a while too, and within a day of practice, you can hit more shots on PC than you did on console (but ofc so can your opponents). I think the amount of players who use a controller on PC is very very slim either way. To be honest it sounds more like you are trying to convince yourself it is ok to use Kb+M + aim assist because "using a game pad is just as easy". But why wouldn't you just use a game pad if that was really true? I think you are vastly oversimplifying the use of a game pad. I have been playing a gosh darn golly gee whiz lot of PvP on D2, and hitting 5 consecutive shots with mida is not as easy as you make it sound, especially with all the flinch (which is btw easier to correct for with a mouse). So bottomline, while I could see a defensive argument for using xim + auto aim on console (although I wouldn't agree unless you have a handicap), I think using xim to gain aim assist on a pc game is essentially cheating. |
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Oct 31, 2017 8:02:24 GMT -5
2. The complete lack of snipers also is refreshing. Not turning a corner and getting shot accross the map is a breath of fresh air. Snipers in Destiny are, usually, as good as the opponents will let them, since the maps themselves don't usually cater towards snipers outright. I don't think players who run into likely snipe lines Leeroy Jenkins' style should be allowed to have snipers effectively removed from the game. Bungie have already given them scope glare to hand hold players out of sight lines that will be overlooked by snipers when players should learn that by either being killed, or know it beforehand. They shouldn't be given the leg-up of the glare beforehand. It reminds me of the crybaby COD players who get mad at being killed by shotguns and sniper rifles. Now that Bungie have moved sniper rifles to the power slot they're rarely worth using for PvE. My problem with snipers isn't when they snipe me. It's when they are on my team. Most all people who snipe generally suck at it (including me) and pretty much remove themselves from being effective in the game. People are generally sitting in a few choice long lanes and by doing so, they are typically removed from beating me in games like Control or Supremacy. If my two of my teammates are sniping a lane....that means I have two less people to team-shoot with in all the other 90% of the places on the map. I'll be shorthanded. I just want to go punch a wall when I see them sitting off in some remote corner waiting, waiting, and waiting. I don't think I have ever seen a sniper in D2 yet. Not an issue. I've always said with CoD.....the developers should put a sniping lock on the game modes. IF your team is losing, you can't snipe. |
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Oct 31, 2017 8:38:11 GMT -5
Now back to talking to myself about the Destinytracker. To continue..... destinytracker.com/Forums/Post/20962/6/dtr-elo"Each player begins with a set Elo score (DestinyTracker starts each player off at 1000) which then moves up or down solely on whether you win or lose a match. The number of points awarded or lost depends on the estimated probability that you have of winning that match. This probability is calculated by comparing the Elo ratings of members of both teams (or all players in Rumble) to determine the chance of winning a match.
" So we all start at 1000 and the probability of winning is important in determining how far you go up or down with each win or loss. Basically, if you win against better players, you go up more. And lose against better people lose less ELO. Anything beyond is to difficult of math for me to comprehend while also trying to do my regular job during the day. Once all the iterations work out, the DT looks like it ranks everyone in tiers. 1. Legionnaire (top 200) 2. Diamond (#201 to 3%) 3. Platinum (3 to 15%) 4. Gold (15 to 30%) 5. Silver (30 to 45%) 6. Bronze (45% to 70%) 7. Rust (bottom 30%)) My two best ELO scores are Control (1435) and Clash (1418). Per the DT rankings, these scores put me in the 'Gold' tier, which are 426,279 and 385,958. The million dollar question is what is that out of? I'm ranked 385,958 out of what? They do have tiers, they seem to be... 385,958 is either 15% or 30%....gives a range of 2,573,053 to 1,286,526. 426,279 is either 15% or 30%....gives a range of 2,841,860 to 1,420,930 1,438,110 is either 30% or 45%....gives a range of 4,793,000 to 3,195,800 2,574,327 is either 30% to 45%...gives a range of 8,581,000 to 5,720,726 That makes no sense. :-( Trying to figure out how many people are ranked in all. Up to nine million people have played Crucible? Control Clash Supremacy |
|
wings
True Bro
Posts: 3,776
|
Post by wings on Oct 31, 2017 8:54:01 GMT -5
My problem with snipers isn't when they snipe me. It's when they are on my team. Most all people who snipe generally suck at it (including me) and pretty much remove themselves from being effective in the game. People are generally sitting in a few choice long lanes and by doing so, they are typically removed from beating me in games like Control or Supremacy. If my two of my teammates are sniping a lane....that means I have two less people to team-shoot with in all the other 90% of the places on the map. I'll be shorthanded. I just want to go punch a wall when I see them sitting off in some remote corner waiting, waiting, and waiting. You can't really afford to have as many snipers with game modes with fewer player counts. In Destiny 1 it was an exception because of the res snipe mechanic. For most people who do snipe, it doesn't make sense not to use other choices for power weapons now especially with the amount of flinch snipers receive. From the limited time I've played Crucible in Destiny 2, I've usually preferred a fusion rifle (either Shock and Awe or Main Ingredient). |
|
markopolo
True Bro
Once a LMG Camper, Then a Voidlock, Now a Lexington 25-8-366 Runner
Posts: 5,567
|
Post by markopolo on Oct 31, 2017 9:01:49 GMT -5
2. The complete lack of snipers also is refreshing. Not turning a corner and getting shot accross the map is a breath of fresh air. Snipers in Destiny are, usually, as good as the opponents will let them, since the maps themselves don't usually cater towards snipers outright. I don't think players who run into likely snipe lines Leeroy Jenkins' style should be allowed to have snipers effectively removed from the game. Bungie have already given them scope glare to hand hold players out of sight lines that will be overlooked by snipers when players should learn that by either being killed, or know it beforehand. They shouldn't be given the leg-up of the glare beforehand. It reminds me of the crybaby COD players who get mad at being killed by shotguns and sniper rifles. Now that Bungie have moved sniper rifles to the power slot they're rarely worth using for PvE. My main point was that I've been killed exactly 1 time by a sniper |
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Oct 31, 2017 9:22:04 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Pegasus Actual on Oct 31, 2017 9:55:31 GMT -5
While I think your general theory is sound, I don't think that goes for the average skill level. I feel that a threshold point would be somewhere in the noob skill curve, not the average gamer. I have seen console players (like N kuch) who have barely any playtime on PC and they are already hitting more shots on PC than I do on console. Now I am no PvP god, but am at least above the skill curve. I have played some CoD on PC every once in a while too, and within a day of practice, you can hit more shots on PC than you did on console (but ofc so can your opponents). I think the amount of players who use a controller on PC is very very slim either way. To be honest it sounds more like you are trying to convince yourself it is ok to use Kb+M + aim assist because "using a game pad is just as easy". But why wouldn't you just use a game pad if that was really true? I think you are vastly oversimplifying the use of a game pad. I have been playing a gosh darn golly gee whiz lot of PvP on D2, and hitting 5 consecutive shots with mida is not as easy as you make it sound, especially with all the flinch (which is btw easier to correct for with a mouse). So bottomline, while I could see a defensive argument for using xim + auto aim on console (although I wouldn't agree unless you have a handicap), I think using xim to gain aim assist on a pc game is essentially cheating. I think you're overestimating the average m+k user's aim. Now D2 has changed from D1, I have a pretty small sample size (though slightly more if you add in the beta) and obviously there are more noobs, but the impression I get is that going up against D2 m+k players is easier than going up against D1 console players was. You say the PC controller population is very small, and maybe that's true. I don't think I've seen anyone report actual numbers though. Really, only Bungie knows. I would suspect that the gamepad percentage for D2 would be the highest for a first person shooter. After all it is a sequel to a console only game from a developer known for console only games. The thing is, the controller-using demographic on PC is only growing. Console kids grow up, make more money, and decide to get w/ the PC master race. And some of them try mouse and keyboard and say "fuck that" and stick with what they know. It's not so much the mouse that gets them down, it's the keyboard. Nobody likes it after learning FPS on a gamepad. They need convincing. I've dealt with these people. It hurts my head. I don't need to convince myself or you about what's cheating or not. It's not cheating in any of the traditional wallhack aimbot 3rd party tool ways. So it's unlikely to get detected (people seem to act like it's undetectable... I don't really agree with that point, it's definitely problematic to detect, but then again I have little interest in helping someone block a XIM in their game as it might get me banned). So the endgame argument isn't even really protecting myself against gamepad players, it would be protecting myself against other XIM players. Meanwhile at the XIM forums I argue with a guy who thinks that native m+k beats XIM if you're competent with a mouse. Crucible isn't fun for me. It never was. It's only a means to the end of having fun in the PVE. And XIM will minimize the time it takes to get some weekly loot out of Shaxx. Most of my time with XIM on PC is for science. Just how good is XIM against normal m+k players. Though admittedly I do prefer XIM input as far as button mapping to certain PC games. Destiny's controls are kind of a mess so that doesn't really apply here. For any given PC game, D2 included, my XIM time on it is probably like 0-10%. I've even used XIM on PC Siege (no aim assist on the game for gamepads even on Xbox) just for muscle memory reasons. But it's a pain to switch my XIM off the console and back again. And you can't lean without ADS-ing on a gamepad. But aside from that I prefer the compact control scheme and am even willing to lose infinite PC turn rate for it. For that matter I've used an Xbox One controller on D2 PC for a bit. With maxed out sensitivity as it was setup for XIM and I was too lazy to change it. Why? Because sometimes mouse input stutters in D2 for no reason and it's completely awful. Meanwhile the controller input seems to be working fine. Even with totally wack sensitivity PVE was still pretty easy. I wouldn't be shocked if I could outperform my native m+k self in D2 with a gamepad in PVP after some practice. And I definitely consider myself a better mouse player than gamepad in general. My position is that gamepad just shouldn't get aim assist on PC. But Bungie doesn't want to alienate those players. The consequences of that choice is on them. Not me. |
|
bradman
True Bro
token old guy
Posts: 1,178
|
Post by bradman on Oct 31, 2017 11:13:37 GMT -5
Hence, only two crucible playlists. A design choice that simplifies matchmaking and also obfuscates player count. |
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Oct 31, 2017 11:53:34 GMT -5
Hence, only two crucible playlists. A design choice that simplifies matchmaking and also obfuscates player count. Right. It seems silly to think. Why would developers care about corporate issues and sales? It's not game related! blah, blah, blah. Maybe the developers/coders don't care, but their bosses certainly do. These games sell based on momentum. If people's friends are playing, or it looks like everyone else is playing, more people buy based on hype (or buy DLC later) The reverse is obviously true too. And Call of Duty is a perfect example of this. The higher-ups influencing developers/coders to hide player population. First the higher-ups hid the sales data, and replaced it with nebulous silly data info like " 1 million players online" or " 15 million guns used!!!" (the past few CoD versions out) Worthless info that sounds all jazzy. Then the higher-ups at Activision told CoD Developers/Coders to remove the "# players online' number shown when searching game modes. The next thing to be removed was leaderboards. No leaderboards, no info how many people in each category. Leaderboards did come back, but only with limited search functions, that hid player count. ALL of this is a lot of effort to hide a number. Destiny is following the same CoD playbook example. They can't be pleased with what Destiny Tracker is doing, but at least the info isn't readily available. You have to work to get it. And like my example above, one still can't even be sure, as the numbers don't make a lot of sense. It seems like 2.5 to 3.2 million players (over all console types) have played Crucible. That's based loosely on the game selling about 8 million units. To put things into perspective, during CoD's peak power at the top (MW2 to BO2), Activision was selling between 22 to 30 million units. Of course, Activision was openly telling the world what the EXACT sales figures were and player count in every one of those games. When Adv Warfare and Infinite Warfare dipped the sales into the 14 to 20 million range....the player counts and sales disappeared. I think Destiny definitely suffers from one thing CoD doesn't have. Content. CoD players keep playing Call of Duty. And they play the PvP. Destiny players seem to be mostly there for the PvE, and when that slows down, is completed, players disappear. The PvP isn't keeping them like CoD. This kind of sucks. I bought this game because I thought people would keep playing it. And now that I have it....everyone is mostly gone. |
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Oct 31, 2017 15:32:47 GMT -5
|
|
hebbnh
True Bro
Cacodemon expert
Posts: 2,688 
|
Post by hebbnh on Oct 31, 2017 17:19:21 GMT -5
Yeah that map is complete shit for control. Your only hope if you spawn on C is to try to take the tunnel on the right and sneak back to cap A and hopefully flip the spawns. If you can’t get it to work, you lose, and it’s usually not close.
|
|
qupie
True Bro
Posts: 12,400
|
Post by qupie on Nov 1, 2017 5:25:34 GMT -5
While I think your general theory is sound, I don't think that goes for the average skill level. I feel that a threshold point would be somewhere in the noob skill curve, not the average gamer. I have seen console players (like N kuch) who have barely any playtime on PC and they are already hitting more shots on PC than I do on console. Now I am no PvP god, but am at least above the skill curve. I have played some CoD on PC every once in a while too, and within a day of practice, you can hit more shots on PC than you did on console (but ofc so can your opponents). I think the amount of players who use a controller on PC is very very slim either way. To be honest it sounds more like you are trying to convince yourself it is ok to use Kb+M + aim assist because "using a game pad is just as easy". But why wouldn't you just use a game pad if that was really true? I think you are vastly oversimplifying the use of a game pad. I have been playing a gosh darn golly gee whiz lot of PvP on D2, and hitting 5 consecutive shots with mida is not as easy as you make it sound, especially with all the flinch (which is btw easier to correct for with a mouse). So bottomline, while I could see a defensive argument for using xim + auto aim on console (although I wouldn't agree unless you have a handicap), I think using xim to gain aim assist on a pc game is essentially cheating. I think you're overestimating the average m+k user's aim. Now D2 has changed from D1, I have a pretty small sample size (though slightly more if you add in the beta) and obviously there are more noobs, but the impression I get is that going up against D2 m+k players is easier than going up against D1 console players was. You say the PC controller population is very small, and maybe that's true. I don't think I've seen anyone report actual numbers though. Really, only Bungie knows. I would suspect that the gamepad percentage for D2 would be the highest for a first person shooter. After all it is a sequel to a console only game from a developer known for console only games. The thing is, the controller-using demographic on PC is only growing. Console kids grow up, make more money, and decide to get w/ the PC master race. And some of them try mouse and keyboard and say "Foxtrot that" and stick with what they know. It's not so much the mouse that gets them down, it's the keyboard. Nobody likes it after learning FPS on a gamepad. They need convincing. I've dealt with these people. It hurts my head. I don't need to convince myself or you about what's cheating or not. It's not cheating in any of the traditional wallhack aimbot 3rd party tool ways. So it's unlikely to get detected (people seem to act like it's undetectable... I don't really agree with that point, it's definitely problematic to detect, but then again I have little interest in helping someone block a XIM in their game as it might get me banned). So the endgame argument isn't even really protecting myself against gamepad players, it would be protecting myself against other XIM players. Meanwhile at the XIM forums I argue with a guy who thinks that native m+k beats XIM if you're competent with a mouse. Crucible isn't fun for me. It never was. It's only a means to the end of having fun in the PVE. And XIM will minimize the time it takes to get some weekly loot out of Shaxx. Most of my time with XIM on PC is for science. Just how good is XIM against normal m+k players. Though admittedly I do prefer XIM input as far as button mapping to certain PC games. Destiny's controls are kind of a mess so that doesn't really apply here. For any given PC game, D2 included, my XIM time on it is probably like 0-10%. I've even used XIM on PC Siege (no aim assist on the game for gamepads even on Xbox) just for muscle memory reasons. But it's a pain to switch my XIM off the console and back again. And you can't lean without ADS-ing on a gamepad. But aside from that I prefer the compact control scheme and am even willing to lose infinite PC turn rate for it. For that matter I've used an Xbox One controller on D2 PC for a bit. With maxed out sensitivity as it was setup for XIM and I was too lazy to change it. Why? Because sometimes mouse input stutters in D2 for no reason and it's completely awful. Meanwhile the controller input seems to be working fine. Even with totally wack sensitivity PVE was still pretty easy. I wouldn't be shocked if I could outperform my native m+k self in D2 with a gamepad in PVP after some practice. And I definitely consider myself a better mouse player than gamepad in general. My position is that gamepad just shouldn't get aim assist on PC. But Bungie doesn't want to alienate those players. The consequences of that choice is on them. Not me. Thnx for going into this, I always find it an interesting discussion. I can agree with all of your post, and respect the fact that you are not trying to be full time "crucible god" with your "at least a little bit less than fair" setup. But I can't agree on the last line. How is players abusing xim to get both KB+M and aim assist a consequence of developers choice? I mean sure it is to some extend. But if you think that way any form of exploits is a consequence of the designers choice isn't it? Is a rapid fire controller for example a concequence of developers choice? (the main reason semi auto weapons are close to impossible to balance in almost every console game) What about using glitches like the emote glitch that resulted in trials being delayed for 2 weeks? What about in the real world, if something is not forbidden by law, does that automatically make it acceptable? There is a pretty decent grey area there imho, and just blaming it on developers (which honestly have a pretty hard choice to make) is too easy. The amount of xim players on pc will be pretty small honestly, like 0.01% tops (complete guess in the dark)? I don't think "if you can't beat them, join them" is a valid argument for such a small percentage. |
|
markopolo
True Bro
Once a LMG Camper, Then a Voidlock, Now a Lexington 25-8-366 Runner
Posts: 5,567
|
Post by markopolo on Nov 1, 2017 9:52:17 GMT -5
Yeah that map is complete shit for control. Your only hope if you spawn on C is to try to take the tunnel on the right and sneak back to cap A and hopefully flip the spawns. If you can’t get it to work, you lose, and it’s usually not close. Actually.... If you take B, and facing A, split 1 on the left side and 1 to the right... keep one at C and have a floater go between the three if necessary... let them have A there and spawn to their hearts content. Sometimes, you have to have that floater come to C to help. It doesn't work all the time, but 60% of the time, it works everytime |
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on Nov 1, 2017 11:13:00 GMT -5
Yeah that map is complete shit for control. Your only hope if you spawn on C is to try to take the tunnel on the right and sneak back to cap A and hopefully flip the spawns. If you can’t get it to work, you lose, and it’s usually not close. Actually.... If you take B, and facing A, split 1 on the left side and 1 to the right... keep one at C and have a floater go between the three if necessary... let them have A there and spawn to their hearts content. Sometimes, you have to have that floater come to C to help. It doesn't work all the time, but 60% of the time, it works everytime Sounds good in theory, but doesn't work that well. |
|
markopolo
True Bro
Once a LMG Camper, Then a Voidlock, Now a Lexington 25-8-366 Runner
Posts: 5,567
|
Post by markopolo on Nov 1, 2017 12:31:24 GMT -5
Actually.... If you take B, and facing A, split 1 on the left side and 1 to the right... keep one at C and have a floater go between the three if necessary... let them have A there and spawn to their hearts content. Sometimes, you have to have that floater come to C to help. It doesn't work all the time, but 60% of the time, it works everytime Sounds good in theory, but doesn't work that well. When it does work, it works well. And tbh, I really like ER as a control map, because it's the only one that you need to do work on. All the rest are brainless rotating zone capping where your team takes A while my team takes C, then your team goes to C and my team goes to B, then yours goes to B and mine goes to A and zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Some IB games I did, no one ever really killed one another because both teams just capped zones avoiding conflict... and when someone did try to stay back or tried to attack, it was a 1v3 or 4 and it's free points to the other team.... ER is really the only map where both teams are actually fighting for one particular zone and there's actual conflict, rather than mindless zone capping |
|
