hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Oct 21, 2017 23:23:03 GMT -5
Since it seems that we actually have a few somewhat active PvPers around here (for now), I figured it'd be a good idea to start a thread specifically for the purpose of PvP discussion and improvement. Obviously there's some discussion spread across a bunch of different threads already, but it'd be nice to have kind of a one stop PvP shop, if you will, to make things in one easy to find spot. Also, I finally broke out my El Gato and captured some gameplay so I can attempt to illustrate (to the best of my meager ability) my ideas and points of view. Anyhow, with all that out of the way, here comes topic #1.
HAND CANNONS
I feel like they're really being slept on and are criminally underrated right now. The prevailing opinion seems to be that they're outshot by scouts at range, outshot by autos and Antiope-D within their intended range (mid-close), and outshot in close range by SMGs and sidearms. Many people don't like fighting against the inconsistent hit registration, "ghost bullets" and bloom. All of those things are issues to some extent. However, I think the biggest issue surrounding hand cannons is that too many people are still trying to use them the same way they did in D1, where hand cannons were dominant in many situations. Unfortunately that just doesn't work very well any more.
So...what works well in D2? First, I think hand cannons have to be used with the intention of peek-shooting as much as possible. Honestly, they were great when used this way in D1, but they were good enough that you didn't really have to use them this way consistently. Nowadays, trying to straight up "stand and deliver" against an auto or SMG isn't a winning proposition most of the time. It can work if you're able to 4 or 5 shot an opponent, but that's easier said than done, and even then you often end up trading rather than outright winning the encounter. However, you gain a huge advantage when popping in and out of cover while firing, and there just isn't any weapon better at this than a hand cannon IMO. Perfect example at 0:57 (apologies for the lack of audio, problem is fixed for future videos):
You can see this again at 1:20, and this play also ties into another big positive for hand cannons, their aerial accuracy. Here I get 3 shots off while mostly in cover due to my terrain advantage. The opponent throws a pulse grenade which I'm able to dodge quickly with a hop to the left. This hop left simultaneously prevents my opponent from using the wall in front of him as cover, and my hand cannon gets an easy midair cleanup shot to confirm the kill. IMO hand cannons and sidearms are the only weapon types that are able to pull off plays like this consistently. They're perfect for an aggressive player looking to get the jump (literally) on an opponent to open an engagement or pushing to finish off a kill before the enemy can recover or retreat.
If I've convinced you to give hand cannons another look, there are a few I'd recommend. For the 140 rpm archetype, Judgment (kinetic, Trials or Trials clan engrams) and Minuet-42 (energy, gunsmith drop?) come with the opening shot perk, which seems like it makes them a little more consistent registering hits. That may well be all in my head though. Better Devils (kinetic, Shaxx/Crucible drop) is pretty highly regarded, although I don't really like it for some reason, probably just me. Old Fashioned (kinetic, not sure where this one comes from) has kill clip and can 3 shot (2h1b) with it active which is pretty awesome. At 150 rpm, Dire Promise (kinetic, Dead Orbit or Cayde treasure map chests) was the only one I thought felt good. 110 rpm hand cannons can kill in 3 shots if you get all crits, but that's easier said than done, and I'm not a fan of their slow handling and low stability.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Oct 22, 2017 10:04:10 GMT -5
Great writeup. Exactly how I see hand cannons at this moment. I don't even think they are under powered honestly. They are on the weak side since their niche is so small, but with 2 primaries there are a lot of workaround with that. I do think bloom needs to go or be toned down (damage dropoff is sufficient for them to not need bloom imho). After that hand cannons would be in a very very good place.
Don't forget they are also great in aerial fights.
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Post by snes chalmers on Oct 22, 2017 12:06:03 GMT -5
I really like that Trials hand cannon, the slideshot perk is quite useful...even if only for refilling 1/3 or 1/2 the mag without needing to do a full reload.
Peaking round cover and ambushing people from above really works out well most of the time, which is something I should try to do more often. Though, and this may be painfully obvious by now, some of those smgs and sidearms are still quite dangerous to face even if you get the jump on them (pun may or may not be intended).
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bradman
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Post by bradman on Oct 22, 2017 16:07:04 GMT -5
They may even be better on PC, with more precision aiming.
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Post by Pegasus Actual on Oct 22, 2017 18:05:37 GMT -5
There is no man who is as accurate with an unassisted mouse as the lowest controller Destiny player with aim assist.
If I had mod powers I would lock this thread and ban Hebb Prime for making it. Then I'd ban Hebb 2.0 North Korea style. Generations of your family would pay.
Crucible. Bah!
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Oct 23, 2017 3:12:03 GMT -5
Not sure if your top line is also meant to be sarcastic. But just look at the PC beta footage. Hand cannons were dominant.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Oct 23, 2017 8:51:40 GMT -5
"Hand Cannons: They Work, Just Not For Me... sigh"
- Polo, Marko
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 23, 2017 9:03:57 GMT -5
I'll have to retry the Better Devils. I have that pistol.
My biggest adjustments so far in Crucible have been:
1. Being able to sprint a again. This has helped me quite a bit. I think Heb will attest to this, as we played yesterday for about eight games and I actually put up decent numbers. Two games in the 20's, and was up on the leaderboards a few times. I've gotten better.
2. Running away from encounters I can't win. If I am weak, get the hell away. What I am finding is a lot of time enemies will pursue, and if I run back to teammates, the opponent then gets caught in a 1 v 2.
I still have a gripe (of many) dealing with the heavy ammo drops. It just completely baffles me how they put in a game design that forces teammates to fight each other for an item. This is mostly an issue with randoms, but I see it every game with them. I get to a heavy drop. Look around to secure the area, counting down in my head the timer. I'll maybe see some firefights off in the distance, typically then followed by two teammates running towards me. Two or three people converge on a drop, all angling in there, while the enemy just follows and destroys us (unless I play good teammate and fend them, slow them down). Completely stupid game design.
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 23, 2017 9:04:46 GMT -5
btw...
I'm going to post up pictures of every Crucible map this week. I got them all.
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 24, 2017 8:45:55 GMT -5
Yeah....this thread is already dying.
So what are the best weapons for Crucible. I remember some of them, can someone restart a list?
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Oct 24, 2017 8:56:10 GMT -5
K - MIDA, Scathelocke, Origin Story, NM, BD
E - Mureals Lift or hand cannon that I deleted... hope something? MIDA mini
H - RL/sword... people will suggest certain fusions but they lie
As much as I can't believe I'm typing this, they need to bring level advantages back... a level 6 should not be able to kill the same as a level 20
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Oct 24, 2017 9:26:18 GMT -5
SMG (counterbalance mod adviced):
Antiope (range extends into close mid range, making it a great match to a scout energy) --> bonus, if you don't have this one, get the sondok-c blue version guaranteed from exodus black adventure on Nessus. 99% copy
Adjudicator (not that good in the range department, but slightly better up close imho. Great match with auto rifle energy)
The Hero's Burden / Phosphorus MG4 (probably the best energy SMG, still outclassed by the 2 above)
Auto rifles (counter balance mod adviced on 600 and 720 RPM):
Uriels Gift (High calibre rounds are the fashion these days, but honestly I think the tap the trigger perk is why it feels so gosh darn golly gee whiz good)
Procecutor/The Number (perfect fine other 450 energy auto rifles. Really it is all about taste with these imho)
Cuboid ARU(it is a blue one! Probably the best 450 RPM kinetic auto rifle. Very comparable to origin story, but a better perk imho)
Scathelocke (decent weapon if you can get the 600 RPM to work for you, I prefer 600 RPM in PvE but in PvP I prefer higher damage per bullet)
Sand wasp (another blue weapon! fasters ROF buth with high caliber. 720 RPM are really undervalued class of weapons, better for crucible than 600 RPM imho, pair great with a scout)
Scout (counter balance mod advised):
Mannanan (imho the best scout rifle in the game for PvP, 2 reasons: explosive rounds > high cal rounds and energy so can be paired with antiope)
Mida (will always be a solid gun, but vastly over valued imho. It is really good, but not even close to OP, jack of all trades master of none)
Pleiades Corrector (This is a great energy scout with high caliber rounds. Basically use this if you don't have the mannanan)
Nameless midnight/tone patrol (if you really like that archetype these are quite good. One off these in your team is also a great addition in team fights because of the higher damage, no counterbalance needed)
Pulse (counter balance mods are a must!):
The Time-Worn Spire (Best pulse by far imho, fast firing great stability)
Vigilance Wing (I don't know why players like this weapon, but some swear by it)
Disrespectful Stare (get your ranges right and play it right, and you will absolutely melt players (+ high cal). Really small range in which it excels though. Will shine with any sort of auto/scout nerf)
Nergal PR4 (best energy pulse, needs a little bit of love probably)
Sidearms (counter balance is nice but not needed):
Last hope (great gun if you like to ADS during engagements)
Etana SI4 (if you like hipfire)
Rat King (best kinetic side arm)
Hand cannons (counterbalance optional):
Amizuth DSU (blue hand cannon with kill clip, absolute killer if used in its (small) niche)
Better devils (best hand cannon to use at mid range due to explosive rounds)
Dire Promise (really snappy short range hand cannon)
Annual Skate (best energy hand cannon)
Shotguns:
Legend of Acrius (absolutely top tier power weapon, if you are not using another exotic weapon you should always be using this. Probably best PvP power weapon in the game)
Hand in hand (Only shotgun in the highest impact tier with decent range, it is a green!! you can buy it at every vendor, they have it quite often on rotation)
Hawthorne's Field-Forged Shotgun (really the only shotgun worth using imho if you are not using either of the other two)
Fusions:
Main Ingredient (Precision frame helps with the recoil direction, great middle ground of impact and charge time)
Shock and Awe/The Wizened Rebuke (for the players who like the Plan C perk)
Rockets:
Blue Shift (Highest blast radius with decent velocity, cluster bombs (and rockets in general) are overrated for PvP)
Curtain Call (Super fast reload speed, rate of fire and velocity with a decent blast radius. cluster bombs are a nice bonus)
Swords:
Quickfang (Hunter exclusive, feels and sounds great, improved mobility)
Steel Sybil Z-14 (If you are not a hunter this is the best sword to use because of the increased movement after kills, it still is no Quickfang though. Honestly if you are not a hunter, use a shotgun)
Grenade launchers:
Play of the game (Only grenade launcher with grenades and horseshoes proximity detonation. 2 proximity detonations = kill. Very undervalued)
Berengers Memory (sticky nades behave very much like proximity nades, and you can do some sneaky stuff with some objectives. Probably only (barely) worth it for the most creative crucible players)
Linear fusions:
They are very much alike AFAIK and I have never tried them. You still need a headshot so why not use a sniper? (really undervalued for PvE at the moment though!)
Sniper rifles:
The long walk (high impact great for teamshots and quickdraw)
Alone as a god (snapshot sights)
Widow's Bite (Lowest zoom scope, high stability for 2 taps)
Aachen-LR2 (Blue weapon, low zoom and snapshot)
Those are the top tier weapons imho. There are some weapons that can be worth it if you build your build around it, but these are quite a safe bet once you understand why you use them. If you have any which need to be added (with some argumentation) please let me know and I will edit it. Would be nice if we can create a complete list every season.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Oct 24, 2017 9:59:15 GMT -5
I think qupie hit most of the high points there. For snipers, I'll add that the Widow's Bite appears to have one of the (if not THE) lowest zoom scopes available. I tested every sniper I have last night and it had the lowest zoom, even lower than the ambush scope on the Aachen-LR2 which I'd previously thought to be the lowest zoom. It also gets a 69 aim assist which is one of the highest in the game, and it's stable enough to two-tap quickly if necessary. When paired with the Dragon's Shadow hunter chest handling buff and Nightstalker invisibility, you have near-perfect setup for sniping IMO. It also looks awesome if fashion is your thing.
I mentioned it already, but the Aachen-LR2 (blue rarity) comes with the Ambush scope and snapshot and is really good as well.
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 24, 2017 10:00:15 GMT -5
K - MIDA, Scathelocke, Origin Story, NM, BD E - Mureals Lift or hand cannon that I deleted... hope something? MIDA mini H - RL/sword... people will suggest certain fusions but they lie As much as I can't believe I'm typing this, they need to bring level advantages back... a level 6 should not be able to kill the same as a level 20 It shouldn't matter. If the level 6 person is truly a 'level 6' (ie, inexperienced, still learning, not very good), then you should waste his azz easily because he won't know the maps, have the right guns or how to play the game. He should be easy pickings for you. That said, if the level 6 person is actually a good player just playing up a new character, then why should be penalized solely because he is leveling up at the moment? That's dumb. It's a artificial imposed penalty to the player for no good reason whatsoever, other than to make the higher level player feel good because he sucks. And that's really mostly it. If the higher level player is good, he won't care. if the higher level player wants the protection, is probably because he's not good. He needs to bring others down to his level. That serves zero purpose in the FPS world. |
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 24, 2017 10:02:23 GMT -5
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 24, 2017 10:03:57 GMT -5
Sand wasp (another blue weapon! fasters ROF buth with high caliber. 720 RPM are really undervalued class of weapons, better for crucible than 600 RPM imho, pair great with a scout) it's nice to see someone else finally acknowledge this. I started using the Sand Wasp early on, ...despite it only being a 'blue' weapon. I've gotten very good with it and it really does kick butt now. I pair this up with the MIDA and the Blue Shift. |
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Oct 24, 2017 10:07:47 GMT -5
Yeah, the whole PvP power level advantage thing was pretty pointless anyway. It basically never happened outside the first Iron Banner after a power level increase. It was never even a thing for regular crucible. What's the reasoning for it? The only purpose it serves is to artificially handicap someone new to the game or someone who hasn't had enough time to get up to speed after a power increase.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Oct 24, 2017 10:11:34 GMT -5
That said, if the level 6 person is actually a good player just playing up a new character, then why should be penalized solely because he is leveling up at the moment? That's dumb. It's a artificial imposed penalty to the player for no good reason whatsoever, other than to make the higher level player feel good because he sucks. And that's really mostly it. If the higher level player is good, he won't care. if the higher level player wants the protection, is probably because he's not good. He needs to bring others down to his level. That serves zero purpose in the FPS world. IIRC, you do martial arts. Should a white belt take on a black belt? Even if that white belt is a black belt in a different martial art? Power should matter, otherwise there's no point in playing anything once you get your powers back from the Shard the first time. |
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Oct 24, 2017 10:21:47 GMT -5
Yeah, the whole PvP power level advantage thing was pretty pointless anyway. It basically never happened outside the first Iron Banner after a power level increase. It was never even a thing for regular crucible. What's the reasoning for it? The only purpose it serves is to artificially handicap someone new to the game or someone who hasn't had enough time to get up to speed after a power increase. Additionally it let you not use weapons which were left behind in previous balance changes. Which is a pretty good reason I guess until they actually brought the icebreaker back in Y3. Still baffles me why they did that. Just wow. With how valid some of the blue (or even green) weapons are in D2, I hope they never reintroduce power level in crucible. It is nice in theory (using your power level seems cool or something) but in practice all it would do is decrease the number of valid weapons. |
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Post by thebb22 on Oct 24, 2017 10:58:20 GMT -5
There is no man who is as accurate with an unassisted mouse as the lowest controller Destiny player with aim assist. If I had mod powers I would lock this thread and ban Hebb Prime for making it. Then I'd ban Hebb 2.0 North Korea style. Generations of your family would pay. Crucible. Bah! I haven't even played any Destiny in the last week, nor did I discover this thread until just now, and here I am, banished to North Korea or banned North Korea style or whatever. Very sad! I'll just go back to playing my South Park now... |
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Oct 24, 2017 12:17:04 GMT -5
At least you didn't get banned Gangnam Style.
I'll see myself out
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 25, 2017 8:24:35 GMT -5
That may well be all in my head though. Better Devils (kinetic, Shaxx/Crucible drop) is pretty highly regarded, although I don't really like it for some reason, probably just me. Old Fashioned (kinetic, not sure where this one comes from) has kill clip and can 3 shot (2h1b) with it active which is pretty awesome. At 150 rpm, Dire Promise (kinetic, Dead Orbit or Cayde treasure map chests) was the only one I thought felt good. 110 rpm hand cannons can kill in 3 shots if you get all crits, but that's easier said than done, and I'm not a fan of their slow handling and low stability. How can any pistol three shot? A two head, one body? Even a 110rpm HC, which typically delivers the most firepower, would do under the above example 71, 71 and 47. That's 189 damage. I suppose in theory that would kill a person with resilience of 1 or lower, but almost no one goes that low. Unless I am wrong, it seems like a HC is going to need five body shots (45 x 5 = 225) to put someone down. Or one head plus three body (61,45,45,45 = 196) |
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 25, 2017 8:42:25 GMT -5
That said, if the level 6 person is actually a good player just playing up a new character, then why should be penalized solely because he is leveling up at the moment? That's dumb. It's a artificial imposed penalty to the player for no good reason whatsoever, other than to make the higher level player feel good because he sucks. And that's really mostly it. If the higher level player is good, he won't care. if the higher level player wants the protection, is probably because he's not good. He needs to bring others down to his level. That serves zero purpose in the FPS world. IIRC, you do martial arts. Should a white belt take on a black belt? Even if that white belt is a black belt in a different martial art? Power should matter, otherwise there's no point in playing anything once you get your powers back from the Shard the first time. I'm not following your analogy. It doesn't really work at all (your example) One, I roll with black belts all the time (I'm almost a purple belt, four stripe blue belt) That's how I get better to some extent. While beating people beneath me (in skill) is important for some skill advancement reasons, one also needs to feel what it's like rolling with better people too. Both are needed for progression purposes. Two, 'IF' say Jiu Jitsu followed the prior Destiny 1 power level advantage system, it would mean a white belt would be artificially hindered by the system when competing against a higher belt. Under Destiny rule sets, the white belt would be forced to get on the mat with one hand tied behind his/her back, forced to compete handicapped. That type of thought would be considered ridiculous in the jj community. It's absurd. Why handicap a lower belt? They are already HEAVILY handicapped just from the lack of training. The higher belt will win not because of artificially created handicaps, but because he's better. He's spent more time training. He knows how to fight. He doesn't need 'help'. So all that said, a 'higher level' PvP player shouldn't need help either. |
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 25, 2017 8:53:02 GMT -5
I feel like most of PvP discussion goes along the lines of ...
"What are the best guns, what gun should I use, etc..."
and the reality of things is that the above is mostly the tail wagging the dog. My best guess is that 80 to 90% of 'HOW YOU DO' is going to be determined by the following things listed in order.
1. 25% - Movements/engagement patterns (following teammates? are you rushing to fast? checking corners? Pre-firing? Using cover?)
2. 20% - Map/Spawn knowledge
3. 20% - How well you shoot (one's aiming, can you land your shots or are you hitting the sky)
3. 15% - Who you are playing
4. 10% - What teammates you are with
5. 10% - What guns you use
It's hard to have long and lengthy discussion topics about the first four items. They aren't sexy. They are mostly about boring shit like endless memorization and repetition stuff. Gun talk? That is sexy. One can spend endless days discussing the nuances of a gun's range, ADS, damage and other statistical factors.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Oct 25, 2017 9:07:06 GMT -5
That may well be all in my head though. Better Devils (kinetic, Shaxx/Crucible drop) is pretty highly regarded, although I don't really like it for some reason, probably just me. Old Fashioned (kinetic, not sure where this one comes from) has kill clip and can 3 shot (2h1b) with it active which is pretty awesome. At 150 rpm, Dire Promise (kinetic, Dead Orbit or Cayde treasure map chests) was the only one I thought felt good. 110 rpm hand cannons can kill in 3 shots if you get all crits, but that's easier said than done, and I'm not a fan of their slow handling and low stability. How can any pistol three shot? A two head, one body? Even a 110rpm HC, which typically delivers the most firepower, would do under the above example 71, 71 and 47. That's 189 damage. I suppose in theory that would kill a person with resilience of 1 or lower, but almost no one goes that low. Unless I am wrong, it seems like a HC is going to need five body shots (45 x 5 = 225) to put someone down. Or one head plus three body (61,45,45,45 = 196) Like I said, Old Fashioned with the kill clip perk active. It gives 30% bonus damage for a few seconds when you reload after getting a kill. That means 79 head and 53 body, so 211 on 2h1b. |
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 25, 2017 9:24:03 GMT -5
How can any pistol three shot? A two head, one body? Even a 110rpm HC, which typically delivers the most firepower, would do under the above example 71, 71 and 47. That's 189 damage. I suppose in theory that would kill a person with resilience of 1 or lower, but almost no one goes that low. Unless I am wrong, it seems like a HC is going to need five body shots (45 x 5 = 225) to put someone down. Or one head plus three body (61,45,45,45 = 196) Like I said, Old Fashioned with the kill clip perk active. It gives 30% bonus damage for a few seconds when you reload after getting a kill. That means 79 head and 53 body, so 211 on 2h1b. Ohhh...got it. That clears that up. |
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 25, 2017 9:47:41 GMT -5
Putting this up here so I can find it later
----------------------
• KD - Is Kills/Deaths. This is no longer shown in-game anywhere but is one of the most important stats.
• KDA - Is (Kills + (Assists / 2)) / Deaths. This is called `KDA` and is used in many FPS games, and the value we get from the Bungie API.
• KAD - Is (Kills + Assists) / Deaths. This is found in the in-game emblem and is the "Efficiency" value after games. This values Assists the same as a Kill. This is found in-game, but not found in the API.
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 25, 2017 13:45:30 GMT -5
gamerant.com/destiny-2-recovery-armor-stat/undefinedThis link seems to indicate that the recovery stat is not linear. So based on that, you only get incremental gains stacking this stat early on. A stat of '1' creates a recovery rate around 10 seconds. Getting it to a '4' knocks the time down to 8.8 seconds. Going to a '5' and '6' only takes it down to a 8.5 and 8.2. So not much benefit. But if you can get it to a 8, 9 or 10....the times drop down to 7.0, 6.5 and 5.5 seconds. The difference between 8.5 second recovery and 5.5 second recovery is pretty huge. That should be a significant help.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Oct 25, 2017 13:54:46 GMT -5
...welcome to a month ago? But, that does remind me of something I saw floating around the other day (found it: youtube vid by CammyCakes) that I wanted to try. Hunters can't get their recovery stat above 6, I think. So instead of dumping basically everything you have stat-wise into a stat you can't get that much out of anyway, just ignore recovery. Leave it at zero or 1, hit 4 or 6 resilience, and pump the rest into mobility. The kicker here is that Arcstriders have a perk in the lower tree that grants massively increased grenade and melee recharge rates when you're critically injured, i.e. your shield is gone and your health is in the red. Well with such low recovery, pretty much any time you win a close fight with a smidge of health left, you get to take full advantage of those enhanced grenade and melee recharge rates. You get a LOT of free grenades this way, and melees too I suppose but those don't get used as often. Now add in Lucky Raspberry, which gives you a ~30% chance to automatically get a grenade back when you hit an enemy with an arcbolt grenade. If you hit multiple enemies, which is very likely with the current team shot meta, your chances go up even more (51% at 2, 65.7% at 3, 76% at 4 if my math is correct). I think this actually has the potential to be really, really good. Too bad Lucky Raspberry is the only Hunter exotic I’m still missing  . Anyway, I've rambled enough, here's the vid: EDIT: Holy Foxtrot, 2 more thoughts. 1. This build is going to awesome on PC where the Arcstrider super is actually pretty decent and hand cannon cleanups are much easier, and 2. Can you imagine a whole fireteam doing this at once? Like, say, next Iron Banner? Get your shit together, boys, arc bolts are back on the menu! |
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Post by iw5000 on Oct 25, 2017 14:50:11 GMT -5
...welcome to a month ago? Ok  Just trying to help. I don't recall ever seeing the above posted anywhere. |
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. Anyway, I've rambled enough, here's the vid:
