tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Nov 23, 2012 13:08:40 GMT -5
The M14 was superior to the FAL
The M14 had recoil, sure, but it was only vertical. Fully predictable and counterable. FAL was garbage in comparison. Also, FAL had the bigger hipspread I think. It was obselete I haven't seen anyone defend it here on the forum.
The SMR is hardly a nerfed BO M14. In fact it seems strictly superior; it doesn't kick up vertically strictly but it seems to settle faster between shots And remember that a lot of other assault rifles fell back to 4-5hk while this is retaining a long 2hk.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Nov 23, 2012 14:32:29 GMT -5
Seriously, a gun isn't bad just because its too hard for you. Thats not the argument. He is saying semi auto isnt any harder than full auto, which is obvious BS. There isnt anything more to say. The sky is red.
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Post by bobo on Nov 23, 2012 16:33:38 GMT -5
I prefer the SMR's 2 HK range advantage when deciding between these two. The recoil isn't too atrocious for most ranges I seem to get into encounters (grip doesn't seem to help much, but that's a theme I want in this game). I think SF is easier, but I love the semi-auto control.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Nov 23, 2012 17:19:07 GMT -5
Exactly. If they werent harder to use, then the MK14 in MW3 would have been the only gun people used for most maps. FAL Holo w/SP in MW2, etc.
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Nov 23, 2012 21:58:34 GMT -5
The Mk14 was one of my most used guns in MW3, and the k/d sample that got posted here had it near the top of the pile. "More difficult" doesn't matter as long as it's under the threshold at which you can do it consistently. 500-600 rpm is. If the gun shot at 600 rpm with SF and had a cap of 800 without it, you would be right. As it is, you aren't. At least not for players of my (hardly remarkable) ability.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Nov 23, 2012 23:55:25 GMT -5
The Mk14 was one of my most used guns in MW3, and the k/d sample that got posted here had it near the top of the pile. "More difficult" doesn't matter as long as it's under the threshold at which you can do it consistently. 500-600 rpm is. If the gun shot at 600 rpm with SF and had a cap of 800 without it, you would be right. As it is, you aren't. At least not for players of my (hardly remarkable) ability. I almost never use fully auto weapons. I can hit the trigger reasonably fast [~500].
It's still harder to use them.
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tiesieman
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Post by tiesieman on Nov 24, 2012 14:31:39 GMT -5
Okay so i used the SMR extensively today
Thing is pretty good. It's like the Blops1 M14, but not outclassed by automatic rifles. It's the same principle; verical predictable recoil, but it has very little. You can keep up a decent fire rate while being accurate
Select Fire is useless (for me). I'm with asasa here, it fires so slow to the point you just don't need it Hell the only reason I'd equip it is because I actually hit the fire rate cap too often
Does Select Fire decrease range on it (and the fal for that matter)
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Robospy
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Post by Robospy on Nov 24, 2012 20:00:28 GMT -5
Does Select Fire decrease range on it (and the fal for that matter) No
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toysrme
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Post by toysrme on Nov 24, 2012 23:52:06 GMT -5
im probably the best M14 player ever going back to cod4. i loved that gun. cod4 M14 could situationally slaughter anything, and no matter how bad a fight was you always had a puncher's chance. it was the absolute king on Overgrown. the FAL dumps on the SMR. completely dumps on it. the SMR serves no purpose in the game beyond Touch Football. guys it's not the 2hk vs 3hk ranges that matters. in this game it doesn't matter at all. ever. the reason, is because the FAL is a super fast shooting laser beam with a ton more ammo compared to the SMR. it's not even close. the FAL two hit kills if you're so close to spray someone down. that's all that matters. beyond that the SMR's accuracy low clip size and just absolutely PITIFUL rate of fire make it suck.
in fact. the SMR is so bad, the tac-45 with a long barrel and quick mags rapes it kink.com style.
again, don't get all bent out of shape about a 2 hit kill range when virtually no other gun you encounter regularly in the game will be 3 hit killing at those ranges in the same time frame the msdw doesn't have the practical accuracy to compete with it.
triple kills with the target finder FAL are nothing. you basically look down a hallway at a spawn and youll get a couple every match. throw a stock and quick draw on it and you can be real aggressive too.
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tooros
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Post by tooros on Nov 25, 2012 4:42:06 GMT -5
I played with the SMR all Friday night and then, last night, prestiged my FAL and played all night with that. Like for like. The SMR is actually pretty gosh darn golly gee whiz good but, the FAL is definitely better. Select fire on the FAL could be an issue though as it gives those who can't use powerful semi autos a way in. Maybe they should have made it the last unlock? I wonder how many prestiged semi autos we''ll see long term as the grind to level 10 is a long one if you're not used to spamming a trigger.
I have to say, I'm fairly sure, I cannot get anywhere near the fire cap on these guns on the Xbox. I tend to fire in 3 shot bursts about the speed you would say 'elephant.' The thing is, these guns kill in 3 suppressed rounds to infinity. Penetration coupled with the through wall tracking is a bonus too.
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Post by iw5000 on Dec 13, 2012 12:42:44 GMT -5
Maybe I am missing something, but I don't get some things with the FAL vs SMR. Or SMR hate.
Like the fire rate. People keep saying the FAL shoots faster. But isn't that a Potential number, or in theory? Both are semi autos, so the fire rate is dependent upon the person's finger skills...not the gun, if UNDER the cap rate. I went and timed myself with both guns, experimenting in a private match. I suppose i kind of suck....but the rate I hit was around 400 to 424 RpM range. Perhaps my methodology is slow, the real rate is a bit faster, as I am using one hand on a stopwatch, the other on the controller. Either way, the fire rate is the same. At least for me. The guns are equal in this category.
Even when you put on Select Fire....the difference is negligible. Both guns shoot dogazz slow on full auto. Like around 400 to 450. (The FAL times a bit faster, but negligible) So one's finger can semi auto fire at close to the fullauto rate. So why use Select Fire? I don't get it? I mean, i do get that it's EASIER to just hit a button once and hold it down ..fire off 7 bullets in a second. That's much easier than tapping the trigger seven times. But with these guns, if you are tapping the trigger past four times, or holding down full auto for a full second......you are probably dead anyways. 450 Full Auto AR's with a bit of recoil....ain't winning any gun battles past a sec of trigger pulling.
It also seems like the issue of recoil is a bit overplayed. Why? The SMR 2bullet kills up to around 37 meters (122ft). That's a pretty big range and unless 2nd floor window tactical loitering, that will cover probably most engagements. There is practically no recoil on the 2nd bullet ...which will kill. And the third bullet is predictable, ...right up. At the head which delivers the head bonus. Someone mentioned the FAL two bullet kills....but it's only up to about 16 meters. Again...most CoD battles are in the 15 to 35 meter range. The FAL 2-bullet kill abilities are worthless here.
It seems to me (and i'm just speculating and only some experience with both),...since most encounters when using an SMR are going to be in the 15 to 35m range....one is going to be able to deliver two bullets more effectively manually (semi auto), than trying to deliver 3 bullets with the FAL manually. (two trigger pulls is immensely easier than three)
I guess if using Select Fire.....the above extra bullet difference in the full auto fire rate...makes the above argument gone? The FAL is now better to use, seeing it's clip size is bigger? When i tested both the FAL and SMR using SF, ....the recoil did seem almost identical to each other. In fact, it was worse than the M27 and almost around the MTAR in terms of kick.
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Post by Pegasus Actual on Dec 13, 2012 13:59:23 GMT -5
The capped fire rate is limiting because if you have a reasonably fast trigger finger it's really easy to exceed it in short bursts. For example, I tend to do semi-auto in mini-bursts of 2, tap-tap, tap-tap. When those four shots get nerfed down to 2, you're dead. It's pretty easy for that to happen with the FAL, and with the SMR you really need to focus in order to not skip shots thanks to the rate cap.
Yeah if you can't/don't click that fast it's not an issue. For me the FAL causes problems, but I can spam the Five-Seven pistol at about the rate I'd like to.
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toysrme
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Post by toysrme on Dec 13, 2012 14:43:44 GMT -5
^you can shoot the 5x7 at 576rpm reliably. the tac-45 likes much lower, but is a better pistol.
the FAL shooting faster is not "potentially" faster. it is faster under all conditions AND nearly triples it like for like accuracy.
The difference is the FAL can fire 512rpm with 100% reliability (never skip) AND laser accuracy, and the SMR is not "mostly" reliable until under 416rpm. And even then it's not slow enough to maintain great accuracy. if you don't mind the occasional dropped input for an even match, the FAL can shoot upwards of 550rpm....
that's not a "little" difference. that's pretty huge across the board from CQB spraying to mid-range to long range...
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Post by morriscat on Dec 13, 2012 22:53:49 GMT -5
but it looks soooo cooooooollll It really does, and even though I KNOW my KDR would be quite a bit better if I were using an M8A1 or an MTAR or similar, knocking someone down with two aimed rounds from halfway across the map is Just So Satisfying! I don't really get the point of the FAL vs SMR argument though. I use them both quite a lot, and they both have their own niches. If you're using the SMR right, the slower handling is mostly irrelevant because you should already ADS when your target pops up. If you want to move around a lot and fight at closer ranges most of the time, use the FAL instead. On the topic of the SMR, btw, I've found Toughness to be surprisingly worthwhile. Even though it takes a full-auto AR 4-5 bullets for my 2 at most ranges, if even ONE of those five bullets hits me before I kill them, the disruption to my aim can be lethal. I tried swapping Cold-Blooded out for Toughness and IMMEDIATELY saw an improvement in my success rate in face-to-face engagements.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Dec 14, 2012 11:06:39 GMT -5
The Mk14 was one of my most used guns in MW3, and the k/d sample that got posted here had it near the top of the pile. "More difficult" doesn't matter as long as it's under the threshold at which you can do it consistently. 500-600 rpm is. If the gun shot at 600 rpm with SF and had a cap of 800 without it, you would be right. As it is, you aren't. At least not for players of my (hardly remarkable) ability. To your point, I went back and looked at the MW3 data to see if it is the case that the average MK14 user tended to be more skilled. I looked at the average KDR of users of each gun, weighted by the number of kills with the gun. The top 5: AA-12 KSG 12 SPAS-12 USAS 12 MK14 It does appear that MK14 users tended to be more skilled.
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Post by iw5000 on Dec 14, 2012 11:32:40 GMT -5
^ The difference is the FAL can fire 512rpm with 100% reliability (never skip) AND laser accuracy, and the SMR is not "mostly" reliable until under 416rpm. And even then it's not slow enough to maintain great accuracy. if you don't mind the occasional dropped input for an even match, the FAL can shoot upwards of 550rpm.... Are you talking when using the Select fire, full auto? If not...the potential fire rate is a bit silly. Using both semi auto, both will fire at the rate of the shooter's fast-twitch finger skills, and for most people, they aren't going to approaching max potential. So with that, with the semi auto...aren't both guns shooting essentially the same speed? If you are talking full auto....with select fire....i think the difference is negligible. The FAL shoots at most one extra bullet over a second. And the nerfed recoil on both guns is the same.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Dec 14, 2012 11:41:24 GMT -5
Well I think his point is that "550" is more like 512; 450 is more like 412. So its lower than it first looks [Like any other gun, but semi autos + dropped shots = very annoying and debilitating.]
A lot more people can reach 412+ than 450+. Anyone who uses semi autos for a long time will probably be able to hit 500.
He's almost certainly talking about semi auto mode, but I disagree that the difference is negligible. ~1.6 extra shots per second. That can help you out a lot, especially when that constitutes ~20% more.
Recoil is still lower on the FAL AFAIK.
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Dec 14, 2012 11:43:19 GMT -5
You grossly underestimate your physical abilities, IW5K. Literally anyone can exceed the RoF cap on the SMR. It's absolutely a relevant (and da mning) drawback to the gun. Missing an input on a gun that slow means death more often than not. 400 rpm is an absolute joke. www.urban75.com/Mag/java7.htmlTry this. I bet you can sustain an average speed higher than that over ten seconds, to say nothing of short bursts.
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Post by farixis on Dec 14, 2012 11:58:43 GMT -5
My k/d with the SMR is higher than that of the FAL - around 2 for the SMR, around 1.7 for the FAL, both with around 1500-1600 kills. Which flies in the face of the stats, but I will say that the longer 2sk range _does_ matter, and it is particularly noticable with a Silencer, which will almost always require 3sk with the FAL at medium engagement distances, but still usually require 2 with the SMR, and that means more kills and less escapes. Part of it has to do with the mindset I'm sure - when I use the SMR I'm acutely aware that I have a lower mag size, a slower ads, a worse reload time, a terrible hipfire spread, etc, etc, so I tend to play a little smarter. I actively attempt to avoid situations where I'll get into spraying contests against multiple SMG users, I try to keep to the longer sight lines or tactical loitering spots as much as possible, etc. Up close, the SMR is just as lethal as the FAL against singular targets, with a ttk that is gosh darn golly gee whiz hard to beat if you are on target, but its awful if you get into multiple rapid cqc engagements. And at medium and especially long ranges, the thing is an absolute beast. 2sks at ranges that look like sniper distances are hilariously easy to hit, because a quick double tap has neglible recoil. I run Stock on basically every AR at all times, but that in combination with a Silencer or an advanced optic (possibly with Primary Gunfighter for all three, depending on my mood) makes the SMR a very powerful mid to long range weapon, and it can still protect you up close as long as you're careful about how and where you get into fights. Consider, the SMR is in many ways an SVU with no scope and a better fire rate. From that perspective, it's a pretty nice sniper, and more usable up close It's also one of the weapons most suitable for Overkilling a shotgun secondary. I typically simply scavenge one of the ten million SMGs around the map, or a shotgun if I can find one, and that works fine for moving through areas that are unavoidably close quarters centric, but even when I can't find one, I still do ok. Neither are as nasty as the M8 with SF, but they're my second and third best ARs, above all the others.
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Post by iw5000 on Dec 14, 2012 12:17:54 GMT -5
You grossly underestimate your physical abilities, IW5K. Literally anyone can exceed the RoF cap on the SMR. It's absolutely a relevant (and da mning) drawback to the gun. Missing an input on a gun that slow means death more often than not. 400 rpm is an absolute joke. www.urban75.com/Mag/java7.htmlTry this. I bet you can sustain an average speed higher than that over ten seconds, to say nothing of short bursts. I actually tried this myself the other night. Took on hand on the trigger, working it furiously...and the other i sort of balanced a stopwatch. The averaged results after a few attempts with each (like six each time)... FAL - 4.25 sec ~ 25 bullets = 5.8 RpS, 352 RpM SMR - 3.50 sec ~ 20 bullets = 5.7 RpS, 343 RpM No difference. If i am shooting these guns semi-auto, both guns are shooting at the same rate. Now...is that lame? maybe my very unscientific testing method is inaccurate. So i went and tested some full auto guns, see what I came up wit, as those guns can be verified. What i found out is my testing procedure seem to VERY consistently underclocking at a -10% rate below what the full auto do. Like I tested the T25, and got a 804 RpM with my watch. 0.893 of the 900 listed rate. Consistent across the board when i tried the other guns. So my 'testing procedure', underclocks a -10%. So bumping up my semi autos, +10%...i would say i am shooting them at a rate of around 390 to 400 RpM. The max cap rate is 450 on the SMR? I guess i am a joke? I got a 79 and 83 on the clicking game.
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Post by aidsaidsaids on Dec 14, 2012 12:27:39 GMT -5
I'm inclined to say your testing procedure was ineffective. Aside from whatever attention resources you were using on the stopwatch, furiously hitting the button is slower than lightly tapping it. Smaller range of motion, less work, more speed. Trigger stops are one of the most common mods people make to controllers for this reason; they prevent wasted movement.
If your actual trigger output is 350 rpm, I would recommend abandoning both guns. Bear in mind though, that you aren't ever going to be shooting the whole mag at once (probably). You care more about how fast you can shoot for five shots than 20, and two than five. That's harder to measure, especially with a stopwatch.
Edit: 79 in 10s = 474 RPM. 83 = 498. You would be dropping inputs with the SMR at that speed, and with the FAL you would not.
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Post by iw5000 on Dec 14, 2012 13:16:06 GMT -5
I'm inclined to say your testing procedure was ineffective. Aside from whatever attention resources you were using on the stopwatch, furiously hitting the button is slower than lightly tapping it. Smaller range of motion, less work, more speed. Trigger stops are one of the most common mods people make to controllers for this reason; they prevent wasted movement. If your actual trigger output is 350 rpm, I would recommend abandoning both guns. Bear in mind though, that you aren't ever going to be shooting the whole mag at once (probably). You care more about how fast you can shoot for five shots than 20, and two than five. That's harder to measure, especially with a stopwatch. Edit: 79 in 10s = 474 RPM. 83 = 498. You would be dropping inputs with the SMR at that speed, and with the FAL you would not. You are reading to much into the 'furiously' comment. and did you read what i wrote? About how my testing procedures seems to undercount. I guess not. Again. "Now...is that lame? maybe my very unscientific testing method is inaccurate. So i went and tested some full auto guns, see what I came up wit, as those guns can be verified. What i found out is my testing procedure seem to VERY consistently underclocking at a -10% rate below what the full auto do. Like I tested the T25, and got a 804 RpM with my watch. 0.893 of the 900 listed rate. Consistent across the board when i tried the other guns. So my 'testing procedure', underclocks a -10%.So bumping up my semi autos, +10%...i would say i am shooting them at a rate of around 390 to 400 RpM. The max cap rate is 450 on the SMR? I guess i am a joke?"
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Post by lackingdamage on Jan 22, 2013 14:41:37 GMT -5
The FAL is better , the SMR just a worse version with longer range. May be mad but I get the feeling the SMR has more recoil compared to the FAL. Which ruins it main strong point it insane range. SMR needs to have it flitch toned down, less recoil. Maybe that would balance it ? Won't lie I did use both with select fire for the forget and fire. Near the end of my time with both guns getting gold did move away from select fire. Still found the FAL easier to use and better in almost all classes. Hope it was OK to bump this
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 22, 2013 15:14:04 GMT -5
SMR does have more recoil, when firing semi-auto. I found the recoil to be about the same when using select fire.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 22, 2013 15:19:18 GMT -5
dont forget the art of drilling a screw into your controller to make a trigger stop It works I swear, but it keeps you from overcharging the plasma pistol in halo for some reason So thats what a trigger stop is... hmm, might have to try that... my controllers starting to be less responsive [physically] since its a few years old anyway.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jan 22, 2013 16:43:56 GMT -5
oh, yeah, derp. i havent been playing much lately lol
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Post by brutalonslaught on Jan 22, 2013 17:10:39 GMT -5
You have to play a bit more conservatively with the SMR.
FAL + Select Fire makes shit players good. I don't run it, prefer the reflex sight to give clarity to multiple engagements. Iron sights just don't do it for me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2013 14:31:53 GMT -5
What are your guy's thoughts on the FAL now? Lately it seems like the "pro scene" has been rallying to get Vahn to nerf it. I've also been seeing more and more complaints about how OP the FAL is on the offical COD forums.
It's a fantastic top tier gun but is it really overpowering? When I use it I don't feel like my skill is being artifically boosted like with the BO1 AK74u RF or the MW3 Akimbo FMGs, and I never really had a problem dealing with FAL users...
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42
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Post by 42 on Jun 10, 2013 14:35:57 GMT -5
What are your guy's thoughts on the FAL now? Lately it seems like the "pro scene" has been rallying to get Vahn to nerf it. I've also been seeing more and more complaints about how OP the FAL is on the offical COD forums. It's a fantastic top tier gun but is it really overpowering? When I use it I don't feel like my skill is being artifically boosted like with the BO1 AK74u RF or the MW3 Akimbo FMGs, and I never really had a problem dealing with FAL users... It's a lot better than the other guns. 2-3 shot kill with barely or no recoil? Wow.
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Post by APOCALYPSE on Jun 10, 2013 14:36:14 GMT -5
What are your guy's thoughts on the FAL now? Lately it seems like the "pro scene" has been rallying to get Vahn to nerf it. I've also been seeing more and more complaints about the FAL on the offical COD forums. It's a fantastic top tier gun but is it really overpowering? When I use it I don't feel like my skill is being artifically boosted like with the BO1 AK74u RF or the MW3 Akimbo FMGs, and I never really had a problem dealing with FAL users... You mean that same 'pro' scene that thinks the grip is a useful attachment? And LOL COD forums.
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