Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2013 14:41:45 GMT -5
You mean that same 'pro' scene that thinks the grip is a useful attachment. That's why I put quotation marks around pro scene lol. I always see them complaining to Vahn about it on Twitter so I was just curious what your guy's take on the FAL was.
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prioc
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Post by prioc on Jun 10, 2013 14:44:14 GMT -5
I haven't used it with select fire yet, but it's a pretty good and fun weapon to use. the SMR is also nice, but the reload seems a bit longer + having less ammo in the mag, and more recoil makes it not really seem so good. I guess its range is nice though, but I usually get 4-6 shots out with both of them anyway. I've been using quickdraw on the FAL, the sights are good enough for me and I don't really have much else too useful unlocked.
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Post by APOCALYPSE on Jun 10, 2013 14:45:41 GMT -5
You mean that same 'pro' scene that thinks the grip is a useful attachment. That's why I put quotation marks around pro scene lol. I always see them complaining to Vahn about it on Twitter so I was just curious what your guy's take on the FAL was. I just wish the FAL and the SMR had a down side to firing fast instead of jamming the gun with the tiny Fire rate. This is more SMR though.
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mmacola
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Post by mmacola on Jun 10, 2013 15:45:36 GMT -5
I honestly dislike the FAL. The two shot kill range is pretty small, and after that anytime you engage multiple enemies you're fucked
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wings
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Post by wings on Jun 10, 2013 19:36:56 GMT -5
What are your guy's thoughts on the FAL now? Lately it seems like the "pro scene" has been rallying to get Vahn to nerf it. I've also been seeing more and more complaints about how OP the FAL is on the offical COD forums. It's a fantastic top tier gun but is it really overpowering? When I use it I don't feel like my skill is being artifically boosted like with the BO1 AK74u RF or the MW3 Akimbo FMGs, and I never really had a problem dealing with FAL users... lol MLG do have their strange quirks. I see more people use the AN-94 than the FAL.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jun 10, 2013 19:43:07 GMT -5
What are your guy's thoughts on the FAL now? Lately it seems like the "pro scene" has been rallying to get Vahn to nerf it. I've also been seeing more and more complaints about how OP the FAL is on the offical COD forums. It's a fantastic top tier gun but is it really overpowering? When I use it I don't feel like my skill is being artifically boosted like with the BO1 AK74u RF or the MW3 Akimbo FMGs, and I never really had a problem dealing with FAL users... They moan about everything on the official COD forums. Haven't been on there for a while so may be I'm missing out on some wummage or something.
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pachiderm
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Post by pachiderm on Jun 10, 2013 20:26:26 GMT -5
What are your guy's thoughts on the FAL now? Lately it seems like the "pro scene" has been rallying to get Vahn to nerf it. I've also been seeing more and more complaints about how OP the FAL is on the offical COD forums. It's a fantastic top tier gun but is it really overpowering? When I use it I don't feel like my skill is being artifically boosted like with the BO1 AK74u RF or the MW3 Akimbo FMGs, and I never really had a problem dealing with FAL users... The amount of skill it takes does not correlate well with how powerful it is. The 2-3 shot kill ability outclasses the other ARs completely, and often beats SMGs at close range.
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Post by citrus on Jun 10, 2013 21:48:57 GMT -5
AR's often boast a faster TTK in this game, provided you are accurate. There are a lot of variables to that though and there's a big thread about it somewhere.
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pwn3d
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Post by pwn3d on Jun 11, 2013 3:42:54 GMT -5
The problem with the FAL is, that if used "perfectly" (shooting at or very close to the cap) it outclasses pretty much everything.
Best possible TTK up to 16.5m: 0.096s. This is extremely fast. (Kap-40 has 0.128s, Skorpion has 0.144s, AN-94/MSMC have 0.160s) you don't even have to be that close to the cap to have better TTK than most guns.
From 16,5 to infinite range it's best possible TTK is 0.192, which is the same TTK some guns have close range (MP-7, type-25). On this range some guns can compete with the FAL, like LMGs, AN-94 and SMR. But when those guns get their first damage drop the FAL is again the faster killing weapon. With Headshot the fal can kill in 0.096s up to 57m.
If a player is really good with the FAL, he has a gun that's better than others on most ranges. The semi FAL is theoretically better than the full-auto FAL at release. Not a lot players can use the FAL on that level, but If they do you gonna have a bad time.
The semi FAL needs a nerf. (The full auto version can stay or needs a buff, is has been nerfed so much it is useless). Maybe lowered firecap and/or more recoil.
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Post by Pegasus Actual on Jun 11, 2013 6:34:10 GMT -5
The FAL is obviously the best gun in the game. Throw a stock on there, ADS walk most of the time, game over.
Should they nerf it? Hell no. FAL + Hardline + Arms Race is the only fun I've been getting out of this game lately.
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Post by -3055- on Jun 11, 2013 16:45:24 GMT -5
Scar & stock with hardline and VSAT on arms race is the best fun I've had. VSAT wallbangs for days. Toss a C4 into the mix and I kill most enemies without them ever even seeing me
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wings
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Post by wings on Jun 11, 2013 20:41:35 GMT -5
Scar & stock with hardline and VSAT on arms race is the best fun I've had. VSAT wallbangs for days. Toss a C4 into the mix and I kill most enemies without them ever even seeing me I've just re-unlocked the SCAR. I'm looking forward mowing down groupies all running the AN-94.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Jun 12, 2013 8:37:47 GMT -5
When I've picked up a FAL TF/Supressor/SFire.... it was fun. When I've picked up a SMR TF/Supressor/SFire.... it was fun too.... but the SMR is rarer than the FAL... at least on Core PSN TDM
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b0xr
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Post by b0xr on Jun 12, 2013 9:37:33 GMT -5
I think being accurate is a prerequisite for being an efficient killer.
The SMR has a solid 2hk range, with a fast potential ttk. However, it also has a fair amount of recoil. I draw one conclusion from that. It shines in medium range engagements. (Too long and the recoil will make you miss. Too close and the slower handling will hurt you.) Overall this weapon is all power with less control.
The FAL still has a very competitive ttk, and is better at achieving it because there's no recoil. Fast ttk + accuracy = good at all ranges. If you have the skill, this can easily be the best gun in the game.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jun 12, 2013 12:16:35 GMT -5
The problem with the FAL is, that if used "perfectly" (shooting at or very close to the cap) it outclasses pretty much everything. Best possible TTK up to 16.5m: 0.096s. This is extremely fast. (Kap-40 has 0.128s, Skorpion has 0.144s, AN-94/MSMC have 0.160s) you don't even have to be that close to the cap to have better TTK than most guns. From 16,5 to infinite range it's best possible TTK is 0.192, which is the same TTK some guns have close range (MP-7, type-25). On this range some guns can compete with the FAL, like LMGs, AN-94 and SMR. But when those guns get their first damage drop the FAL is again the faster killing weapon. With Headshot the fal can kill in 0.096s up to 57m. If a player is really good with the FAL, he has a gun that's better than others on most ranges. The semi FAL is theoretically better than the full-auto FAL at release. Not a lot players can use the FAL on that level, but If they do you gonna have a bad time. The semi FAL needs a nerf. (The full auto version can stay or needs a buff, is has been nerfed so much it is useless). Maybe lowered firecap and/or more recoil. And this isnt a problem. I mean, is the BO1 M14 OP because a really good player could, reasonably, make it have next to no recoil while firing at >400RPM [500+ on Xbox/PC], with powerful hipfire [vs FAL] and high damage? No. Logic says semi autos should be 'the best'.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2013 12:51:09 GMT -5
Yup. Balancing a good gun with difficulty to use is perfectly fine imo. If a gun is perfectly balanced while also being more difficult to use, then it will be outclassed itself due to its unreliability as a weapon. Fal is fine. I agree completely but couldn't you make the argument that the FAL isn't difficult to use due to its low recoil?
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Post by SandSeven on Jun 13, 2013 9:42:49 GMT -5
After playing with both today for about an hour each for the first time since golding them 4 months ago, my opinion hasn't changed. The Fal is the clear winner over the SMR. Since it has very little recoil, an optic isn't needed for long range engagements like the SMR. The iron sights remind me so much of the ACR, and that only brings back good memories and good habits when aiming with this gun. This frees up 2 spots in my pick 10 system not having to run primary gun fighter with the Fal. The extra 5 bullets are actually meaningful since the goal when using this weapon is precision. I don't find it necessary to run fast mags since one clip takes care of 4-5 enemies without having to worry about reloading. Stock and quickdraw on the Fal make for a weapon that can kill quickly at any range leaving me 6 spots for perks and equipment and as always a pistol as a secondary.
Maybe it's the fact that I've spent the last 3 and half months using only bolt action snipers, but I find the Fal to be the best AR in the game. While in experienced hands it can seem overpowered, I believe the other posters are correct in their conclusions that it is fair to balance a weapon with difficulty of use. It also adds another weapon skill to learn and master for those who enjoy using all the weapons in the game.
It's also worth noting that in public matches, I rarely hear complaints about using the Fal or SMR compared to other weapons. That might be due to all the complaints I've received for sniping so much recently though. Either way, I enjoy that there are 2 semi-autos in the game that play differently, have their own strengths and weaknesses in regards to effective ranges, and are very balanced.
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Post by mw2baller on Jun 14, 2013 8:53:21 GMT -5
The SMR sucks. The 2hk range isn't really that big. All 3 lanes on raid are longer than it. It's basically a FAL with terrible handling.
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Post by -3055- on Jun 14, 2013 22:02:06 GMT -5
They need to raise the firecap of every semi in this game by 20% and make SF shoot any semi at 50% of its maximum firerate. No recoil nerf and no range nerf. That's better balance than what we have now, IMO
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pwn3d
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Post by pwn3d on Jun 15, 2013 11:38:20 GMT -5
They need to raise the firecap of every semi in this game by 20% and make SF shoot any semi at 50% of its maximum firerate. No recoil nerf and no range nerf. That's better balance than what we have now, IMO increase by 20%? That would result in 750 compared to 625 now, and SF would only have 375rpm compared to 468 now. Your suggestion would make the semi Fal even more OP and SF Fal even more useless. Thats exactly what NOT should be done. For anyone who thinks Semi FAL is not OP: play a league game in masters divison against people with FAL, and then say it's not OP.
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Post by APOCALYPSE on Jun 15, 2013 14:29:31 GMT -5
increase by 20%? That would result in 750 compared to 625 now, and SF would only have 375rpm compared to 468 now. Your suggestion would make the semi Fal even more OP and SF Fal even more useless. Thats exactly what NOT should be done. For anyone who thinks Semi FAL is not OP: play a league game in masters divison against people with FAL, and then say it's not OP. Nice joke.
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Post by -3055- on Jun 15, 2013 16:40:46 GMT -5
agreed the fal could use more recoil and admittedly less range, but the firecaps of every semi in this game is unbelievably low. Especially SMR, Executioner, and S12. And high firerates don't mean anything if people can't fire consistently.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jun 16, 2013 1:17:09 GMT -5
They need to raise the firecap of every semi in this game by 20% and make SF shoot any semi at 50% of its maximum firerate. No recoil nerf and no range nerf. That's better balance than what we have now, IMO increase by 20%? That would result in 750 compared to 625 now, and SF would only have 375rpm compared to 468 now. Your suggestion would make the semi Fal even more OP and SF Fal even more useless. Thats exactly what NOT should be done. For anyone who thinks Semi FAL is not OP: play a league game in masters divison against people with FAL, and then say it's not OP. If the FAL were a fully auto gun and the Type 25 was a semi auto, and everyone was still using the FAL, then I'd agree its OP, as they should all congregate to the semi auto. But wait - it isnt that way! So.. they are congregating to the weapon that they should.. hmm... And I agree the firecaps are too low, but again, its mostly due to the framerate issues and firetime being tied to frames..
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Post by -3055- on Jun 16, 2013 9:00:55 GMT -5
Exactly. That's (one of) my issue. At least with higher firecaps the magnitude of the framerate-based issue lessens. This problem becomes a very serious detriment for anyone using a semi automatic no matter how good they are. Especially on low rate guns.
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Post by -3055- on Jun 16, 2013 17:07:15 GMT -5
Agreed, but semis have a lot to do with luck. Especially panicked hipfires where the framerate decides to be on the friendly side.
57 is still my favorite gun, though.
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asasa
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Post by asasa on Jun 16, 2013 18:53:04 GMT -5
True. When I played enough on BO I started to be able to gauge how fast to press without hitting the cap, but that took a looooong time to develop that skill.. and its one players shouldnt need to have.
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Post by UrbaneVirtuoso on Jun 16, 2013 19:39:34 GMT -5
And why not? Moderation is a good thing -- you either hit your target or you don't.
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Post by -3055- on Jun 16, 2013 22:08:55 GMT -5
The FAL has a firerate cap of 600 RPM I believe. And now I know exactly how fast that is. I can consistently press the trigger at 8~10 times a second, but even maybe 7 times a second doesn't work consistently because firetimes can be that detrimental.
I'm saying we need a higher firerate cap not because the guns don't kill quickly enough; in theory they're amazing. In-game, however, the firerate caps create extremely luck-based outcomes and events because in order to keep consistency I need to sacrifice a trigger finger anywhere close to the firecap.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Jun 18, 2013 14:10:34 GMT -5
I know I'm gonna get laughed at for this..... but whatever....
Grip really helps the SMR's full auto recoil. I know the percentage is minimal at best, but I really really find it helps. I dunno if that is all in my head, but the silenced full auto SMR is one of the few guns that I will take the Target finder off for, and use grip.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jun 18, 2013 16:37:00 GMT -5
I know I'm gonna get laughed at for this..... but whatever.... Grip really helps the SMR's full auto recoil. I know the percentage is minimal at best, but I really really find it helps. I dunno if that is all in my head, but the silenced full auto SMR is one of the few guns that I will take the Target finder off for, and use grip. In my experience, it's the silencer that makes the difference with the SMR. The recoil on the SMR isn't an issue if it's a 2HK, but once it becomes a 3HK you begin to feel it. When you put a silencer on it, it really stinks in that 1,050-1,500 unit range where it used to shine.
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