probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 25, 2012 10:28:24 GMT -5
Welp, I've got bad news.
Thanks to Marvel's inquisitiveness, he's discovered a rather significant error in our assumptions about Kick -- not to mention a bug regarding stance bonuses for recoil.
It turns out that Kick only reduces ViewKick and GunKick each by 10%, not 20%. He speculates that the makers of the guide added 10 and 10 together to get a "20%" reduction in recoil. Derp.
Thus, my recoil charts for MW3 need yet another revision, which will come sometime within the next week. The unfortunate thing is, Kick's efficacy in reducing recoil on guns with high amounts of GunKick will be disguised by my results, as I cannot account for GunKick yet. It will appear that Grip is superior in every case (-10% ViewKick and +25% CenterSpeed > -10% ViewKick all day) but this is clearly not true. A note will be added to this effect in the revision.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 24, 2012 20:30:01 GMT -5
E'ery one's a birch. Get over it.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 24, 2012 19:42:52 GMT -5
"chuchuchuchuchuchuhcu" - M60 "iauhrdisfsakishfakgsfjasglga" - Famas Dat FAMAS sound. L96A1 takes it hands down for me.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 24, 2012 19:02:56 GMT -5
357(not .357) is good enough imo. CoD 4 with tweaks you mentioned is already a super augsome game. "AUGsome". I lol'd.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 24, 2012 18:17:55 GMT -5
Make CoD 4 without Super Powerful nades. Fix'd. And no Jugg/SP.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 24, 2012 17:02:54 GMT -5
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 24, 2012 16:58:24 GMT -5
It seems that you've successfully managed to turn this thread into the IRC, Mousey. Well done. (Speaking of which, why is no-one on the IRC?) Phone. And shiny refuses to irc Who the bleep is shiny? And why should I care?
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 24, 2012 16:41:53 GMT -5
It seems that you've successfully managed to turn this thread into the IRC, Mousey. Well done.
(Speaking of which, why is no-one on the IRC?)
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 22, 2012 21:10:38 GMT -5
My vote goes to the caped crusader. By my count there's two empty seats at the Hexagonal Table...
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 22, 2012 13:33:47 GMT -5
So for LMGs, being prone reduces recoil by 40% and crouching, only 10% For Snipers, prone reduces recoil by 60% while crouching reduces it by 30% That's how I understand it, but you forgot to mention the game has a 0.5 second delay before applying the reduced recoil vale. I think that's simply in place so that you don't receive the bonus the moment you hit that crouch/prone button.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 22, 2012 13:25:31 GMT -5
Holy shit. How the hell did you rip out raw code from MW3?
And what do these scalers reduce? Kick values? Or something else?
And if you can do that, why can't you get the data from the gun files?
Answer me!
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 21, 2012 12:43:11 GMT -5
Ehh, it has almost no ViewKick . Those numbers don't take GunKick into account (except the CoD4 chart).
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 16, 2012 21:32:44 GMT -5
Excellent. I was aware of the two recoil stats, the gunkick and the viewkick. I know the only way to accurately measure recoil is to simply fire at a wall. Unfortunately, I do not own the game for the PC and have no screen capture software for my console. If some bro would be so kind as to post recoil values I would greatly appreciate this. The error is greater than simply not knowing the GunKick numbers. No one knows those numbers for MW2 and MW3 anyway, so that error is a given. I think you can get away with not knowing the GunKick numbers here because neither the Mk14 nor the ACR exhibit any significant GunKick. The error I cite has to do with ViewKick, which those plots are meant to account for in full. I only wanted to warn you that those plots aren't totally accurate even without considering GunKick.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 16, 2012 21:16:36 GMT -5
I'll only make one comment about the recoil analysis. You used psijaka's recoil plot as your representation of recoil. We did find an error in how the recoil is modeled in his charts and he has not updated his plots to reflect this error. denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=4708&page=2#88183This error does affect the position of the shots relative to each other -- in other words, it doesn't simply result in a "shrinking" or "magnification" of the plot. His plots are not fatally flawed, but this error will likely make a difference in a comparison of the guns.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 13, 2012 22:57:48 GMT -5
I've just updated the MW3 charts with results for the shotguns. They are as unsurprising as you expect them to be.
Brick2urface has also agreed to help me get the GunKick numbers from Mark Rubin, so here's hoping. Thanks again, Brick.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 11, 2012 5:25:02 GMT -5
Just a thought here, but is it possible that the emergence of these rings is machine-dependent? If the game makes a call to an RNG (random number generator) outside of itself -- likey very fast but also very low quality as far as randomness goes -- then what kind of machine you run the game on (PC/console, OS, hardware) might be significant.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 10, 2012 22:33:30 GMT -5
the point of his post was to show that a change in damage effects the time to kill a lot more than changing the fire rate. Which is obvious, really, but still, that's what I got from it. Exactly. I just like using sledgehammers to swat flies . Right. Now replace firetime by 60/rate-of-fire and you have my formulae. Well yeah. But TTK is a theoretical measure of raw power anyway. I assume no one on these fora is so uninitiated as to think that low TTK = good gun without considering all the relevant factors you mentioned.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 10, 2012 10:37:13 GMT -5
Haha, time for mathematics ;D! This is why the OP is right: Let T 1 and T 2 be the time-to-kill for weapons 1 and 2, respectively. Then we have: T 1 = 60(n 1 - 1)/r 1T 2 = 60(n 2 -1 )/r 2where n 1 and n 2 are the bullets-to-kill for each gun and r 1 and r 2 are the rates of fire for each gun. Then the difference in time-to-kill between the weapons is: T 1 - T 2 = 60*(n 1 - 1)/r 1 - 60*(n 2 - 1)/r 2= 60(r 2n 1 - r 2 - r 1n 2 + r 1)/r 1r 2See that r 1r 2 that everything gets divided by? That's why increasing ROF has so little effect on TTK. If you're dividing by the product of two large numbers (600-1200), you're dividing by a really huge number, which means your difference in TTK is really flipping small. Even if you change a gun's ROF from, say, 700 to 800, the increase in the top half of that fraction is just about insignificant compared to the increase in what it all gets divided by. What's more important -- as you all knew already -- is bullets to kill, i.e. damage. if you freeze the lower half of that fraction by leaving ROF alone but start to change a weapon's damage by lowering its BTK, you start getting really huge changes in the top half of that fraction, and thus more significant changes in TTK. Just as an example, let's take the M4 @ 780 RPM and try to buff it to 850 RPM. If we are interested in TTK at range, then n 1 = n 2 = 5, and T1-T2 = 60*4*(850 - 780)/(850*780) = 0.025 increase in TTK. Big whoop. Now, lets try increasing its damage at range to 25, i.e. decrease BTK to 4. Now, r1 = r2 = 780, and we have T1 - T2 = 60*(4 - 3)/780 = 0.077 increase in TTK. So the difference in TTK we get by decreasing BTK from 5 to 4 is nearly three times greater than what we get by increasing the rate of fire by 70 RPM. So yeah, that. Class dismissed .
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 10, 2012 2:01:52 GMT -5
Did you make a mistake with the CoD4 shotguns? Shouldn't the W1200 get a better result than the M1014 because of its much lower rate of fire? Not necessarily. It might be a case of the W1200 kicking out so far that it can't recover enough distance to bring it closer to center than however far the M1014 kicks out on a single shot, even as the W1200 has that much more time to recover. I checked the numbers in my weapon list and they seem to be right (300 RPM for the M1014, 80 RPM for the W1200). The W1200 also has half the CenterSpeed of the M1014 and considerably larger Yaw kick values, so it doesn't seem impossible that it would fare worse. [Opens up CoD4...] I think that's what it is. I fired them both at a wall extensively and I'd swear the W1200's second shot was consistently further out than the M1014's, but you're welcome to disagree . Also, I updated the link to the code in the OP, just in case anyone is bored enough to stare the wall of text/code I wrote. (Also, after opening up the game to test the shotguns, I find myself playing CoD4 like my life depended on it. I'm hooked!) (Also, Brick needs to read his PMs. Grrr.... .)
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 10, 2012 1:07:59 GMT -5
I quite agree. I think you should be nerfed to a 95% spelling error rate and be allowed to mention ponies only once a week. ponies ponies ponies ponies ponies Close enough. Brick2urface: do you read your PMs?
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 8, 2012 14:30:41 GMT -5
Did you make a mistake with the CoD4 shotguns? Shouldn't the W1200 get a better result than the M1014 because of its much lower rate of fire? Not necessarily. It might be a case of the W1200 kicking out so far that it can't recover enough distance to bring it closer to center than however far the M1014 kicks out on a single shot, even as the W1200 has that much more time to recover. I checked the numbers in my weapon list and they seem to be right (300 RPM for the M1014, 80 RPM for the W1200). The W1200 also has half the CenterSpeed of the M1014 and considerably larger Yaw kick values, so it doesn't seem impossible that it would fare worse. [Opens up CoD4...]
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 8, 2012 0:37:13 GMT -5
And it's done. Check 'em out.
Dat PM-9. First gun I'll be using when the patch hits PC, I tell you what.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 8, 2012 0:03:41 GMT -5
The others only got increased damage. Okay. I'll get the charts updated within the hour. P.S. -- I nominate Marvel to be the Official Den Kirson Boards Editor-in-Chief.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 7, 2012 23:58:31 GMT -5
Yes, just PM or post it into his thread. And for the changes, M16 and MP5 shoots at 895rpm, PM9 had 22% reduction in both viewkick and gunkick. AK-47 got a 50% gunkick reduction. Is that all? I thought something happened to the FAD and a few others, too.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 7, 2012 23:53:04 GMT -5
I'm about to update the MW3 results in the latest draft to account for the changes implemented in the weapon balance pass. Is there a single place where I can go to find all the relevant changes?
Also, I'm still wondering how we can get those GunKick numbers. I just never seem to catch the right people on Twitter at the right time. I know Brick2urface has the ear of a couple of developers, but I've never seen him post in this thread. Do you think he might help?
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 6, 2012 22:42:00 GMT -5
I quite agree. I think you should be nerfed to a 95% spelling error rate and be allowed to mention ponies only once a week.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 6, 2012 19:02:08 GMT -5
I also ran a test with the L86. Without GunKick, the L86 measures in at 10.51, and with XboxAhoy's GunKick numbers (assuming the same decay and accel numbers as before) the L86 still scores a measly 18.24, putting it on par with a stock ACR. I find that hard to believe myself.
Edit: Actually, it's not THAT farfetched. I started firing 5-6 round bursts into walls with the L86 and ACR and, quite honestly, I started to forget which groupings came from which gun. It might have been the fact that you can fire 100 consecutive rounds form an L86 that convinced me its score should be much higher. A score of 18.24 w/ GunKick also puts it as the best stock LMG, which, again, is reasonable.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 6, 2012 18:52:49 GMT -5
I think you made a small mistake with Double Tap: 923 / 1226 = 0.75285 It should be exactly 0.75. Also, do you think they only changed the minimum and maximum gunkick in MW3? Maybe we can get some results with the values from XboxAhoy's recoil video. You're right, but I ended up rounding the rate of fire numbers in my spreadsheet to the nearest whole number, hence the discrepancy. We can live with that, right? As for the GunKick numbers: I did run a test on my own with the Pecheneg using the numbers XboxAhoy featured in his Recoil video. I assumed an accel value of 800 and decay values of 32 and 40, respectively, similar to those seen in the AR and LMG class in CoD4. The GunKick-less Pecheneg measures in at 54.81 RU and the Pecheneg with the GUnKick numbers I mentioned earlier scores at 63.00 RU (recoil units, unbiased). My gut feeling is that that is not accurate. I think IW fiddled around with the other GunKick numbers as well.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 6, 2012 17:05:19 GMT -5
Okay, I think everything's fixed now, as per Marvel's corrections.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Aug 6, 2012 0:54:57 GMT -5
Damnit. I was hoping rechamberTime only applied to rifles . I think a mistake that big will have to be corrected tomorrow.
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