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Post by probaddie on Jul 14, 2012 23:04:07 GMT -5
Where can you get the black ops gunkick numbers? I thought those gun files were unencrypted, so they'd be sitting somewhere in the /main folder. Right? (Goes off to check...) Edit: Yep, found 'em. Damn you scared me!
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Post by probaddie on Jul 14, 2012 22:49:09 GMT -5
I just know one thing: Contact them when they're online. Sending a message when they're off will quickly disappear among other hundreds of messages. Okay, I guess Twitter will have to do. I'll wait until Monday to give it a shot. And here is the eighth draft: Black Ops, Unbiased statistic: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnFeORnwotj_dGNZNkNtWTdMWFJfRi1LVWdEXzZIcFE#gid=0Black Ops, Vertically Biased Statistic: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnFeORnwotj_dHN2T01Pb25zdm5naEM3YWY2RTdUZFE#gid=0MW3, Unbiased statistic: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnFeORnwotj_dEhubGRTUXpBNmtHVmFLSGVFdWdLd0E#gid=0MW3, Vertically Biased statistic: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnFeORnwotj_dDVNNTdDWUUxT0NzRUVrT3FCdXcxdnc#gid=0What's New in Version 8: - This draft takes into account the different accelerations that are applied to the gun during deflection and re-centering (see for evidence of this phenomenon). Because of this, all the guns now have a lower measurement, as the guns do not deflect as far as we had originally thought. The ranking of some guns have changed.
- These measurements can no longer be compared with psijaka's recoil plots. This is because, as far as I can tell, his plots assume a constant acceleration whereas my charts account for the two different accelerations.
Interesting notes: - The King is dead; long live the King. The MW3 ACR manages to beat out the M4A1 in the unbiased chart this time around (not by much). So it apparently has high damage and the best recoil if you subscribe to the unbiased chart. So yeah.
- lol CM901. Foxtrotting hopeless.
- The MW3 LMG class is still as Foxtroted as ever. gosh darn golly gee whiz I want those GunKick numbers.
- Looks like the biased statistic doesn't love the G36C as much this time around. That's a thing.
- The Black Ops charts take into account the true upward vertical recoil number (adsViewKickPitchMax) of the M14. Marvel4 discovered that the minimum vertical kick is actually 40, not -40. The biased statistic still adores the M14 but the unbiased statistic kinda likes the FAL a bit more now by comparison.
I think the only thing to do now is to incorporate GunKick into the code. I can get the GunKick numbers for Black Ops and use those for testing. I know GunKick won't affect the BO results much, but there are a few cases where GunKick is significant so it'll provide a good test for the changes. And as always, I like feedback.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 13, 2012 22:33:45 GMT -5
You can't consistently shoot that fast. 750 RPM are 12.5 shots per second! I know for a fact i can consistently shoot faster than the cm901 but I'm not sure about any other guns I've got my code ready to fire out the eight draft of my recoil chart, so expect that soon. It accounts for the two different accelerations applied to the gun during deflection and re-centering, and it will affect some rankings. But does anyone know how to get in contact with Mark Rubin via e-mail? I know I could use twitter but asking for the GunKick data with a 140 character request seems like I'm asking on a whim.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 12, 2012 21:23:05 GMT -5
I did but he never responded . It's already there. Oh, whoops. I was looking for it under General since, strictly speaking, GunKick is part of every game in the series. I see it now under MW3 though, and I'm fine with that. Thank you, Den.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 12, 2012 21:05:35 GMT -5
Ask Den to edit the "List of threads..." with a link to this one. I did but he never responded .
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Post by probaddie on Jul 12, 2012 20:24:58 GMT -5
Another thing to fix on my recoil charts. Good spot though.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 11, 2012 23:00:52 GMT -5
I don't mean to toot my own horn here, but is there some way we can make sure this thread gets saved from drifting away? I mean, it wasn't exactly easy trying to decipher those variables and GunKick is a fairly important mechanic in MW3.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 10, 2012 10:04:55 GMT -5
So, in light of what was discovered in the "How does GunKick work?" thread, my work here needs revising. In that thread, we discovered that two different accelerations are applied to the gun (ViewKick) during the gun's deflection and re-centering. This affects the trajectory of the gun and thus the probability density function I use to measure the recoil of each gun. So, the eight draft will account for the revision and will be up in the next couple of days.
Edit: Clarified that this applies to ViewKick.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 10, 2012 9:01:43 GMT -5
He's not testing us, that's kind of a stretch. Well, no, I didn't mean that. I just thought it was more than a coincidence that he stopped making TTK videos at the point where our knowledge of the game's mechanics end (we haven't the foggiest how sway works).
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Post by probaddie on Jul 9, 2012 22:30:44 GMT -5
I don't know. I'm trying to think of a way to at least get some kind of stat out of this that we could actually find in game with testing. Its probably a lost cause and our best hope is still getting the stats from xboxahoy. Except he either ignores my e-mails completely or they get lost in a sea of fanboyism. I just had a thought: his latest TTK video on Aiming has been mothballed for the longest time. Do you think he can't get it out because no one here has elucidated the mechanics of sway and flinch on this forum? Maybe we could... barter with him for the numbers .
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Post by probaddie on Jul 9, 2012 22:17:00 GMT -5
You could, sure. But my money is on that statistic being as meaningless as it was in CoD4. I couldn't find a gun in that game where that value wasn't zero.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 9, 2012 20:21:32 GMT -5
What about StaticDecay? Will it make the gun stop on half of the recentering or will it happen faster? (considering a value of 2) Nope. If acceleration is non-zero, the gun will eventually return to center no matter how strong the decay. Having acceleration and decay operating at the same time is like throwing a ball in the air: the air resistance will slow it down both going up and coming down, but thanks to gravity it will eventually come down. It might even happen that the gun will reach its terminal velocity whilst re-centering, so that the gun travels downward at a constant pace. Think of a piece of paper softly falling to ground. It is under the constant effect of gravity, but with enough air resistance the force of gravity is balanced out by the force of the air resistance and the object falls at a constant rate. That is theoretically possible with GunKick as well. So this is what we know about GunKick and its variables: - GunKick is applied to both X and Y dimensions independently (as with ViewKick).
- GunKick allows cross-axial movement between kicks. The gun does not need to come to rest on either axis before crossing it on another kick (as with ViewKick).
- The value adsGunKickReducedBullets defines for how many shots the velocity numbers are reduced. Once this number of shots has been exceeded, the GunKick velocities return to their normal values. The count starts again when the trigger is released.
- adsGunKickReducedPercent defines how much the velocity values are reduced until the number of shots fired exceeds adsGunKickReducedBullets
- adsGunKickPitchMax, adsGunKickPitchMin, adsGunKickYawMax and adsGunKickYawMin are the four values that define the range of possible velocities (in deg/s) the gun may recieve during each kick (Pitch values are vertical, Yaw values are horizontal). Velocities are conserved between shots -- cf. ViewKick, where velocity may be replaced or ignored depending on other factors. For these numbers, both the vertical and horizontal axes are reversed such that down is positive and left is positive (only horizontal values are reversed with ViewKick).
- adsGunKickAccel gives the amount of acceleration (in deg/s^2) applied to the gun to re-center it. Acceleration is always directed towards the center.
- adsGunKickSpeedMax is a hard limit on how fast the gun can travel (in deg/s). Regardless of all other factors, the gun's velocity cannot exceed this value. If the gun tries to do this at any point, the gun will simply travel at this speed until either decay or acceleration (or both) reduce its speed.
- adsGunKickSpeedDecay is a linear drag coefficient (measured in s^-1) which defines the strength of decay in speed whilst the gun is deflecting (moving away from center).
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adsGunKickStaticDecay is a linear drag coefficient (measured in s^-1) which defines the strength of decay in speed whilst the gun is re-centering (moving back towards center).
The grand equation that describes the motion of the gun while under the effect of GunKick's mechanics between each kick (in one dimension) is: x[t] = x_0 (+/-) g*Exp[-bt]/b^2 (-/+) g/b^2 (+/-) gt/b - v*Exp[-bt]/b + v/b where: t -- time elapsed since the start of the kick x_0 -- position of gun at the start of the kick v -- the initial velocity at the start of the kick (determined by the four Pitch/Yaw values and any residual velocity from the previous kick) g -- adsGunKickAccel b -- either adsGunKickSpeedDecay or adsGunKickStaticDecay, depending on whether the gun is moving away from or towards center, respectively Exp[...] -- the exponential function e^(...) Note that the second and fourth signs match up with the acceleration (i.e. if the acceleration is positive (down or left) these signs are positive) and the third one is always opposite of it (negative when acceleration is positive and vice-versa). As mentioned previously, acceleration is always directed towards center. Am I out of line if I ask for this thread to be moved into "List of threads where a conclusion is reached?"
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Post by probaddie on Jul 9, 2012 20:14:54 GMT -5
what is your math/physics background? im impressed. I have a first-class B.Sc. (major in pure math, minor in physics). I also dabbled a bit with computer science by taking some intro courses (as electives) on procedural programming (C and FORTRAN) and OOP (Java). Basically, Gunkick didn't stand a chance .
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Post by probaddie on Jul 9, 2012 12:21:37 GMT -5
Forget rabbit holes; we're in a gosh darn golly gee whiz wormhole now. But I've emerged from the wormhole to bring you knowledge more sacred than the discovery of the Higgs Boson (not really ): I know what the decay values do. The decay values are quantities (measured in inverse seconds, s^-1) that define the rate at which the gun loses velocity due to a linear drag force on the gun. By linear drag force I mean a force proportional to the speed of the gun, kind of like how air resistance slows down real world objects in the Earth's atmosphere. Contrast with acceleration, which is a constant force applied to bring the gun back to center (like gravity). Decay simply tries to slow down the gun from going where it otherwise wants to go, whether towards center or away from it. How do I know this? Because I can use decay values to predict how far the gun will reach out before coming to a full stop using the solution to a differential equation involving a drag force. (I'll oblige any math nerds with the details on how this differential equation describes the motion of the gun, why the ratio is v/b, etc., but for now I'm going to skip them because they're very technical.) Long story short, this solution implies that, on a single kick, the farthest the gun can reach out before coming to rest is v/b, where v is the kick velocity and b is the decay number (sometimes also called a drag coefficient). So, If I mod a gun has a kick velocity of 8 upwards and a adsGunKickSpeedDecay value of 1, the gun should be able to reach the 8 degree boundary on a single kick, since 8/1 = 8. Or if I mod the gun to have a kick velocity of 8 upwards and a decay value of 2, the gun should reach no higher than 4 degrees on a single kick (since 8/2 = 4) and so on. So here are my tests. All videos are shot with timescale = 5 (to speed up the appearance of the decay process): Kick = 8, Decay = 1: Kick = 8, Decay = 2: That pretty much solves the mystery of GunKick. I'll leave this here, go to work and when I come back I'll sum it all up in one post and we'll call it a day. All in that wasn't a bad as I thought it would be. Edit: The decay values have dimensions s^-1 and are not, in fact, dimensionless.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 9, 2012 8:53:19 GMT -5
One is day, other is night. So yeah, centerspeed is one hell of a big deal. So, these results seem to be fairly similar to Gunkick ones. However, one gunkick previous velocity will add to the next one, whilst on viewkick, the velocity at which the deflection/re-centering was occurring is erased. But does this occur with the Gunkick Accel? Yes, it does: No problem. And don't worry, I'm already on the case [pulls out magnifying class, cue Dragnet theme].
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Post by probaddie on Jul 8, 2012 23:26:25 GMT -5
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Post by probaddie on Jul 8, 2012 23:13:16 GMT -5
That's what we always knew. What I discovered is that we overlooked the fact that the are two different accelerations being applied during deflection and re-centering. I will record those examples in a moment. I don't think I can fit both examples in one video. I'm using an unregistered version of Fraps, which limits my recording time to 30 seconds per video. But you can use normal speed, I just wanna see the the recoil pattern and the exact moment of the 2nd shot. Okay. I thought you'd want to see it in slomo is all. I'm working on it now.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 8, 2012 22:53:46 GMT -5
So centerspeed is basically a acceleration value, and view kick is the deflection initial velocity. That's what we always knew. What I discovered is that we overlooked the fact that the are two different accelerations being applied during deflection and re-centering. I will record those examples in a moment. I don't think I can fit both examples in one video. I'm using an unregistered version of Fraps, which limits my recording time to 30 seconds per video.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 8, 2012 22:09:19 GMT -5
Is it like this for every gun? Try a SMG or the Barrett. It may differ. Or maybe not. And then, centerspeed all of the sudden got (more) super important. Here ya go. I modded both the Barrett and the MP5 to have the same ViewKick numbers as my M4 (and to have no sway and GunKick, obviously) Exhibit C (MP5): Exhibit D (Barrett): Same thing happens.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 8, 2012 14:22:06 GMT -5
This is going to be a bit of an aside from the GunKick investigation. After figuring out the formula KV = CS*FT/2 for GunKick recovery, I got kind of hung up on the fact that this is different from the formula for ViewKick (CS*FT/5). Well, there's a very potent reason for it, and it has to do with more than just a scale factor: we were wrong about ViewKick recentering. The formula CS*FT/5 is still correct. What's wrong about our ideas about ViewKick is that it follows a simple velocity/acceleration model, much like is assumed for a projectile being fired under the effects of gravity. Indeed, the actual model is still very similar to this. But there's a significant difference: there's two different accelerations applied during deflection and re-centering. Exhibit A: This M4 is set up to fire at 1 round per second as well as return to center in 1 second (50 ViewKick and 250 CenterSpeed; all the stats are in the description). The gun clearly has a higher acceleration applied to it as it climbs compared to when it descends. If they were the same acceleration, the gun would take the same time to climb as it would to descend. Noticing this, I set out to find out how much time the gun took to climb and then descend. The gun recenters in 1 second, so knowing one time would give me the other. Taking the number 5 in the ratio of the re-centering fomula as a hint, I tried setting the fireTime on my M4 to 0.2 to see what would happen. As it turns out, the gun takes 0.2 seconds to climb and 0.8 seconds to descend. Exhibit B: As you can see, the second shot (0.2 seconds) coincides exactly with the view reaching its peak. With this knowledge, I did some more math to calculate how much acceleration was being applied during both ascent and descent. Assume our velocity/acceleration model for ascent. Let x be the amount of ascent and a the acceleration. We have: t = 0.2, v = 50 (ViewKick velocity) and x=0.5at^2 + vt Take the derivative with respect to t: x' = at+v Now, we are looking for the acceleration, a. But we know that, at the top of the descent (t = 0.2) the gun is stationary; thus, x'=0: 0 = a(0.2) + 50, or a = -250; which equals the CenterSpeed. Now we can calculate the amount of climb, x: x = 0.5(-250)(0.2)^2 + (50)(0.2) = 5 This is the amount the gun must descend in the next 0.8 seconds. Let a now represent the acceleration during the descent. Here, v = 0 because the gun starts moving from rest. Then: -5 = 0.5a(0.8)^2 + (0)(0.8) or a = -15.625Note that 15.625/250 = 1/16 (0.0625) So, the acceleration during deflection is equal to the CenterSpeed and it is one-sixteenth the CenterSpeed during re-centering. Why? Because [insert random head of state] is a [random breed of dog].
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Post by probaddie on Jul 7, 2012 17:42:18 GMT -5
That is, considering a 1000 adsGunKickSpeedMax? Is that the regular value for all guns? Anyway, goodnight That recovery assumes that the gun never attempts to travel faster than adsGunKickMaxSpeed, but it's not tied to that number of 1000. Truth be told, the values for every gun that I see in the files has it set to ridiculously high amounts (~2000), so it's pretty much a non-factor.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 7, 2012 0:35:49 GMT -5
Wow, why havent they passed that model onto regular recoil? Its so much more balanced. Because the Queen of England is a Yorkshire terrier, that's why. Another result for you folks before I sign off. I've finally got around to fiddling with the adsGunKickAccel variable. Thankfully, it's exactly what I think it is: CenterSpeed's analogue. But there's a catch. Before, the magic formula for figuring out how much ViewKick a gun could recover from in one fireTime was CenterSpeed*fireTime/5; for GunKick, it's CenterSpeed*fireTime/ 2. Why? Because the Prime Minister of Uzbekistan is a German Sheppard. So here's what I did. (Again, my M4 is sway-less and ViewKick-less): fireTime=1adsGunKickReducedKickBullets=0 adsGunKickReducedKickPercent=0 adsGunKickPitchMin=-8 adsGunKickPitchMax=-8adsGunKickYawMin=0 adsGunKickYawMax=0 adsGunKickAccel=16adsGunKickSpeedMax=1000 adsGunKickSpeedDecay=0 adsGunKickStaticDecay=0 What happened is that the gun recovered from it's kick exactly as the next shot was fired every time. There was nothing but a single bullet hole at my original point of aim. (I figure a screenie of that probably wouldn't interest anyone.) So we've pretty much got this all figured out. I'm going to start figuring out the decay values... tomorrow . Good night!
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Post by probaddie on Jul 6, 2012 21:31:44 GMT -5
And speaking of that imaginary boundary: it's not (+/-)10 degrees in each direction (like ViewKick), it's (+/-)8 degrees. Why? I have no idea. Because the M4A1 has a gunMaxPitch of 8. Well I just feel silly now for doing all that math. Which variable governs the maximum/minimum pitch/yaw for ViewKick then?
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 6, 2012 21:30:42 GMT -5
So, if you made the Speed like 1, if you shoot 30 rounds and then wait, the gun will still be going up =P? Gosh darn golly gee whiz I wish I had CoD4 for PC. Anybody has a full, clean link to a download? Since I have the game for PS3, it's within the law to download the PC version (in Brazil at least). I feel we are doing some huge breakthrough here. Screw higgs boson. Without any adsGunKickAccel, yes. I'm just testing the GunKick parameters without Accel right now because linear movement is mathematically simple.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 6, 2012 20:10:38 GMT -5
The rabbit hole gets deeper. It turns out that, unlike ViewKick, the speed from the previous kick is not erased by the next shot. The settings for my Viewkick-less, swayless M4 this time around: fireTime=1 adsGunKickReducedKickBullets=0 adsGunKickReducedKickPercent=0 adsGunKickPitchMin=-1 adsGunKickPitchMax=-1 adsGunKickYawMin=0 adsGunKickYawMax=0 adsGunKickAccel=0 adsGunKickSpeedMax=1000 adsGunKickSpeedDecay=0 adsGunKickStaticDecay=0 So this M4 fires at only 1 round per second, and what I could clearly see was the irons gaining speed with every shot, until it reached that imaginary boundary again. And speaking of that imaginary boundary: it's not (+/-)10 degrees in each direction (like ViewKick), it's (+/-)8 degrees. Why? I have no idea. Here's my proof: The 155 px measures the distance between the original point of aim and the boundary. Now, adsFOV = 50 degrees, and the ratio of width to height of the image is 0.75 (3:4), so the image measures 50*0.75 = 37.5 degrees vertically. Measured from the center, the height is 37.5/2 = 18.75 degrees. Also, the height in pixels from center is 768 px/2 = 384 px Let D be the distance of the player from the wall. Let A be the angle we seek. Then we know that (this is all basic trig): tan(18.75) = 384 px/ D (1) tan(A) = 155 px / D (2) Rearrange (1) for D and substitute into (2) to get A = arctan(155*tan(18.75)/384) = 7.8 degrees I did a similar calculation with ViewKick -- knowing a priori that the angle was 10 degrees -- and found the angle to be about 9.8, a similar error that we see here. I'm satisfied that the angle is actually 8 degrees.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 6, 2012 15:33:34 GMT -5
Almost always against your favor. Ba-dum-tsh
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Post by probaddie on Jul 6, 2012 15:23:46 GMT -5
So, any ideas to what happens when you change the Speed Max value? Also, what would happen with 0 GunKickAccel? Yes. adsGunKickSpeedMax is exactly as advertised. The speed of the irons can never exceed this value. I know this because when I set adsGunKickAccel to zero and used any value above 100 -- in this case the irons kick straight up until they hit an imaginary bounday and never return -- there was no change in the gun's behaviour. But when I set it to anything below 100 I was able to get off more shots before the gun reached the boundary, an indication that the irons were travelling at a slower pace. (Still using a guaranteed upward kick of 100 at this point.) In light of the fact that GunKick allows cross-axial movement with one kick, this variable is certainly not redundant. adsGunKickAccel is to GunKick as adsViewKickCenterSpeed is to ViewKick. It determines how much acceleration is applied towards bringing the irons back to the center of the screen. Setting it to zero eliminates all effort by the game to recenter the gun.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 5, 2012 14:52:29 GMT -5
Yeah, this GunKick stuff is really much more complicated than I thought it would be -- and more than it probably has to be. I think I'm done with it for today: I have to get ready for work. If any of you feel up to it you can help with the testing, too.
But yeah, to borrow legitbeastin's vernacular, GunKick is most definitely "worst pony".
Edit: Well, I lied about switching off for the day. I've got a bit of time to kill and I fired up the game once more to do more tests. So I tried this with my ViewKick-less, sway-less M4:
adsGunKickReducedKickBullets=0 adsGunKickReducedKickPercent=0 adsGunKickPitchMin=-100 adsGunKickPitchMax=-100 adsGunKickYawMin=0 adsGunKickYawMax=0 adsGunKickAccel=800 adsGunKickSpeedMax=1000 adsGunKickSpeedDecay=0 adsGunKickStaticDecay=0
So the gun always receives a kick upward of 100 (as before). Well, all I had to do was fire the gun once when the ironsights started bouncing up and down like a spring, with the original point of aim as the center. This is a world of difference from ViewKick, which did not allow cross-axial movement. ViewKick would have glued the irons to the point of aim as they returned to center, but apparently GunKick will allow a weapon to go past it on a single kick. (I might post a video of it tomorrow). This is probably what the decay values are meant to prevent.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 5, 2012 9:56:39 GMT -5
So things are getting... weird.
There seems to be a bug -- or what I assume has to be a bug -- when I use timescale to slow down the game. I modded my M4 to have no viewkick, no sway and gunkick values of 0 left/0 right/ -100 down/100 up (i.e. a guaranteed upward kick of 100). I also set all the other GunKick variables to 0. But when I fire my gun with timescale set to anything below 0.25, I get no gunkick whatsoever; it literally disappears!
It's either a bug or a very telling sign about the mechanic of gunkick, but if this is significant in anyway I can't figure out how.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 5, 2012 9:04:24 GMT -5
I've finally got my hands on a copy of CoD4 and have been playing around with a modded m4. I can say one thing for certain: the recentering with GunKick is different from ViewKick.
I modified an M4 to have no idle sway and no Viewkick, then gave it GunKick numbers that matched the ViewKick numbers of an MW3 AK47 (same as all CoDs?). Hoping that the recentering mechanic was the same, I set adsGunKickAccel to 1400, the same as its adsViewKickCenterSpeed; the thing turned into a laser beam.
So, its probably the case that the three variables I thought were obsolete actually aren't. Oh well.
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