probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 4, 2012 9:50:44 GMT -5
Quick question: if I were to obtain a copy of CoD4, how would I go about modifying the weapon files to test the different GunKick parameters? 1. Go to the Call of Duty 4 /main/ folder 2. Open up iw_11.iwd with any zip program like 7-Zip 3. Extract the Weapons folder 4. Edit the weapon files inside the weapons/mp/ folder with Notepad 5. Put the weapons folder into a new .zip file, rename it with the ".iwd" extension (make sure the zip file opens up to /weapons/, not the mp and sp folders, the directory is necessary to work right) 6. Go to the Call of Duty 4/Mods/ folder (make it if it isn't there, it should be) 7. Put that .iwd in a folder of your creation (like COD4/mods/test/) 8. Start up the MP game and click on Mods in the main menu 9. Select your mod, named after whatever you'd named your mod folder And then for testing, some important commands in the dev console: "devmap [map name]" (I like to use mp_backlot) "give [weapon name]" (their names are the same as the weapon files) sustain_ammo 1 (for infinite ammo) timescale 1.0 (speed up / slow down the game's passage of time, seeing recoil at one fifth the speed using 0.2 could be helpful) Danke, kind sir. While you're here and while I'm waiting for CoD4 to download (through Steam) do you have any insight you can give us into those GunKick parameters?
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 4, 2012 9:20:36 GMT -5
Quick question: if I were to obtain a copy of CoD4, how would I go about modifying the weapon files to test the different GunKick parameters?
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Post by probaddie on Jul 4, 2012 0:51:18 GMT -5
I think one is describing how quickly it can move, and the other the recoil maximums. Think: RF L86 - Stops recoiling upwards Barrett/DE Spray - Stop recoiling altogether* *See here: I think that's a totally separate mechanic. Den mentioned a plus/minus 10 degree maximum deflection in both the X and Y axes for all weapons. Once the gun reaches that limit, your view corkscrews instead of climbing out further. It's in this thread (page 4): denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=2461. There's probably a hard limit on GunKick just like the limit on ViewKick I mentioned above. I don't think variables that mention "speed" would have anything to do with it though, but I could be wrong.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 4, 2012 0:02:38 GMT -5
The other reason I think there may be obsolete variables is because of the apparent redundancies: - adsGunKickSpeedMax appears to contradict the four Max/Min Pitch/Yaw variables. If a gun receives a kick to the right of 100 but adsGunKickSpeedMax is set to 80 will the velocity of that kick be overwritten and set to 80? If so, why bother setting the maximum to 100 in the first place? That makes adsGunKickSpeedMax appear redundant if you set the four Min/Max Pitch/Yaw variables correctly in the first place.
- The descriptions of adsGunKickAccel and adsGunKickSpeedDecay read as being almost identical to me. And if adsGunKickAccel governs the rate of recentering why do we need a separate statistic (adsGunKickStaticDecay) to tell us again how fast the gun recovers from a deflection?
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 23:45:23 GMT -5
Just a thought while I was firing an L86 at a wall in a private match: maybe some of those variables are obsolete. If there really is a "reduced kick percentage" for the first few bullets I couldn't visibly discern when or how that actually takes effect. It looked to me like the L86 can Kick just as hard on the first shot as any other. That's just one gun, though. For all we know it's reduced kick percentage could be zero. I know, I know. I'm grasping at straws here .
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 23:44:40 GMT -5
If cod4 has gunkick already in it then what happens if we totally remove viewkick then start changing the values to see what affects what. And once we roughly know what each stat does is it possible to try to guess the gun kick values of MW3 weapons by modding the cod 4 guns? That's certainly possible. As long you have all four ViewKick Min/Max values such that they all fall below CenterSpeed*FireTime/5 in absolute value you'll have a gun that effectively has no ViewKick.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 23:41:18 GMT -5
Just a thought while I was firing an L86 at a wall in a private match: maybe some of those variables are obsolete. If there really is a "reduced kick percentage" for the first few bullets I couldn't visibly discern when or how that actually takes effect. It looked to me like the L86 can Kick just as hard on the first shot as any other.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 23:15:04 GMT -5
It's really easy to understand. For example look at the barrett. When you fire it, your crosshairs jerk up and to the right strongly. Despite all this, the crosshairs remain in the center of your screen, your view changes but the impact point of bullets fired stays in the center. Gunkick moves the bullet impact point in relation to the screen. This causes bullets to land somewhere that's not in the center of the screen. When combined with viewkick, the recoil adds up. So after you fire a shot, not only does your view shift up a bit, but the impact point shifts up as well within that view. So to sum it all up, normal recoil (viewkick) moves your view (duh). Regardless of where it's moved, your bullets will still hit the center of the screen. Gunkick moves the actual impact point. For example on a 50x30 inch screen, the bullets will land a couple inches above the center of the screen (or wherever the gunkick moves the impact point). I think we're all pretty much past that part. I'm trying to get my head around the gritty details of how those ten variables govern GunKick. For that I think we'll need some divine intervention (Den) or more information from Marvel4.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 23:06:06 GMT -5
Title says it all. This is a splinter thread to prevent a threadjack on a discussion about the MG36. I encourage everyone to continue discussing GunKick here .
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 22:59:10 GMT -5
Explanations: adsGunKickReducedKickBullets: ADS viewmodel control reduced kick number of bullets. This is the number of bullets before the weapon uses a full kick amount. adsGunKickReducedKickPercent: ADS viewmodel control reduced kick percentage. This is the percentage of the full kick amount to kick the gun for the first few bullets. adsGunKickPitchMin: ADS viewmodel control. +/- sign means 'kick down/up'. Larger absolute numbers increase viewmodel climb/descent. From -100 to 100. adsGunKickPitchMax: ADS viewmodel control. +/- sign means 'kick down/up'. Larger absolute numbers increase viewmodel climb/descent. From -100 to 100. adsGunKickYawMin: ADS viewmodel control. +/- sign means 'kick left/right'. Larger absolute numbers increase viewmodel yawing. From -100 to 100. adsGunKickYawMax: ADS viewmodel control. +/- sign means 'kick left/right'. Larger absolute numbers increase viewmodel yawing. From -100 to 100. adsGunKickAccel: Rate at which viewmodel attempts to recenter in ADS. Directly opposes yaws and pitch accumulation. adsGunKickSpeedMax: Maximum deflection speed reached by the viewmodel in ADS. adsGunKickSpeedDecay: Strength of decay on viewmodel deflection speed in ADS. adsGunKickStaticDecay: Strength of decay on viewmodel recentering once it has stopped deflecting. Interesting. Where did you find those explanations? It seems like the first two variables imply that the range of possible "velocities" for the kick increases with time. If that's the case then that throws a huge wrench in my method for measuring recoil, as I was only calculating probability density functions for the first round fired. I got away with this because the mechanic for ViewKick is the same for every shot fired, but with GunKick that assumption looks like it won't hold. Also, I don't understand what should happen to the rounds fired before adsGunKickReducedKickBullets is reached. Do they all fire with the adsGunKickReducedKickPercent modifier applied right up to that critical number of bullets or something inbetween? The next four variables look to be analogues to the ViewKick variables of the same name. Nothing to see here. The last four confuse me a bit. It looks as though there's four values that govern the recentering and I can't understand how they come together. The first one looks like the analogue to ViewKick's CenterSpeed -- though its properly called an acceleration here -- and that alone should govern the recentering. But then there is a value that puts a hard cap on how quickly the sights can deflect during a kick. And on top of that, there are two values that govern how quickly the weapon loses its velocity both during deflection and recentering, which I thought would be covered by the Accel variable. They all seem to work against each other. Den, where are you?! Edit: I'm starting a new thread for this GunKick discussion to prevent a threadjack: denkirson.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=4708 Now carry on discussing the MG36 .
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 18:16:12 GMT -5
To add, I think the only one who knows about GunKick and it's values is XboxAhoy. If I recall correctly, he has some special contract where he's paid to do gun guides. Activision I think provides him with the complete values, including GunKick. Also, I think he's under an NDA, so he can't just spit out the numbers if he wanted. Stop acting like GunKick is a myth. No one can experiment with it because no one has the values for them, except the aforementioned person. Since MW2, weapon files have been hidden and encrypted somewhere that no one knows how to access. Ah, Marvel is right. I'm looking at a CoD4 weapon file now. There are the following values: adsGunKickPitchMin adsGunKickPitchMax adsGunKickYawMin adsGunKickYawMax adsGunKickAccel There are meany others but I'm not going to list them Actually, would you mind listing them all (the ones pertaining to GunKick)? If, by chance, we get those GunKick numbers I'd like to have the GunKick mechanic figured out beforehand for my recoil measurement project .
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 18:07:28 GMT -5
But since when were they different? In the past it's always been that the gun shoots exactly where it's pointing, exactly on your screen. If gunkick and viewkick weren't concerted, then either the weapon would be constantly warping to the position of the gunkick after every shot, or the bullets would be landing in completely different spots from where the gun is pointing (especially after holding down the trigger for a while) I believe MW3 introduced GunKick. Not quite. I believe the game engine has allowed for weapons to have GunKick as far back as CoD4, if not earlier. You can dig around in the weapon files for CoD4, W@W and BlOps and you'll see the GunKick statistics clear as day. It's only in this iteration of the series in which we see significant GunKick. I think you mean that the weapon always shoots exactly where the ironsights/crosshairs are pointed, and you are absolutely correct. Without GunKick, that would always be the center of your screen, even as ViewKick moves your center of view in random directions to create the recoil effect. But in MW3, you can clearly see on certain guns (L86, Mk46, PKP Pecheneg all without the Thermal Scope) the ironsights deviate from the center of the screen -- you can use the hitmarker as a point of reference -- after prolonged, continuous fire: this is GunKick. It's an old mechanic that was, until MW3, used purely for visual effect. I would guess that most guns had it in previous games, but it was so small that the gun always recentered back to the center of view (not the original point of aim) before the next shot. It was likely used just to give the guns a more "jerky" feel; without GunKick, the gun model would appear stationary with respect to the center of view. Don't ask me why IW decided to use GunKick as part of the weapon's actual recoil parameters this time around. Your guess is as good as mine.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 13:48:24 GMT -5
Fixed. They do if they are fired at the same rate, which was part of the OP's question in that thread. But the Barret can be fired at up to 1200 RPM -- my charts assume a rate-of-fire of 625 RPM -- and the AS50 can only be fired at 200 RPM at most. That breaks the deadlock.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 13:10:35 GMT -5
An easy way to fix spelling errors is to make two of the same docs. One that can't be edited and one that we can edit out spelling mistakes. By keeping two docs you also make sure we don't change any numbers, but I'm under the assumption that that won't happen. Oh and that would allow us to sort them into lists of our choosing to display the data better as well? Good idea or redundant extra work? I think it'd be more work than simply fixing the error in my own weapon list I made on my computer. Once it's fixed here (and on the doc) its fixed forever. As for rearranging the lists on your own: I thought there was nothing stopping anyone from copying the documents for themselves. Am I wrong?
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 13:06:16 GMT -5
On the mp7 do you use a 25% increase for rapid fire? Yes. I know there's a bit of controversy here as to what exactly happens to each gun when RF is slapped on, but it's just easier to assume a 1.25 multiplier for what I'm doing.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 12:58:08 GMT -5
You spelled m1911 wrong you put m911 You people are so demanding . Fixed, and thank you.
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Post by probaddie on Jul 3, 2012 12:31:21 GMT -5
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Post by probaddie on Jul 1, 2012 9:25:10 GMT -5
Those are ViewKick numbers, not GunKick. We actually have no idea what the GunKick numbers for any weapon are.
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Post by probaddie on Jun 29, 2012 12:05:30 GMT -5
Well thank you for the sticky nod, but it's just as well it hasn't been stickied yet; this is an incomplete work as far as I am concerned. It's getting there though. Also, do we think we have a shot of getting IW to release the GunKick numbers? As some have mentioned on this forum, IW feel they are losing the support of the CoD community, hence the upcoming re-balancing. They might be persuaded into releasing the numbers as a token of good faith .
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jun 28, 2012 7:28:46 GMT -5
Just a quick update: I'm kinda revamping the code again to make it more streamlined. I original had to create two versions for both MW3 and BO and now I'm trying to combine the two. I haven't forgotten abut the BO results -- and incorporating the gun clones into the list. I'm also going to drop the rankings in favor of just listing the weapons from best to worst within each class. The recoil statistic can be used for any inter-class comparisons. No promises on when this will come out, as I've been very busy lately with RL stuff.
Oh, and I'm including semi-auto sniper rifles in the next update. Because why not?
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Post by probaddie on Jun 26, 2012 11:36:28 GMT -5
It's a tricky case, since they both have the same ViewKick and CenterSpeed values; only rate-of-fire differentiates them. Assuming 200 RPM for the AS50 and 625 for the Barret, my gut feeling is the AS50 should win out. Maybe I'll include the semi-auto sniper rifles in the next update of my work on recoil. In any case, and all else being equal, the lower zoom of the AS50 will make it appear to have less recoil/.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jun 20, 2012 11:57:17 GMT -5
Suggestion for the Black Ops results: You should combine AK-47 and Commando etc. since they have the exact same recoil values. Your current list is a bit hard to read. I can only see two actual cases of this: the AK47/Commando and the MAC11/Spectre. Many guns have the same ViewKick values, but CenterSpeed and rate-of-fire values break ties in many cases. Maybe I'm overlooking something, but I remember there being many more gun clones in BO. In any case, I'll combine those results later today. Your point is taken about "readability." I think what I'll do, if we're satisfied with how the statistic measures recoil, is get rid of the intra-class and primary/secondary rankings in favor of simply listing each weapon in order from best to worst within each class. (And I'm making a second attempt at getting Stuart's attention. I'm sending an e-mail tomorrow at 6:00 British Standard Time. Hopefully my e-mail will be the first in his inbox when he wakes up . Failing that, can anyone think of someone within IW/Activision who might be helpful?)
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Post by probaddie on Jun 19, 2012 22:10:53 GMT -5
And I've now officially hit for the cycle in this thread with a quadruple post. MLB MVP Award, please. Here is the sixth draft (just the MW3 results for now). The "statistic" column now contains a measure of the recoil rather than a score out of 100. As it turns out, a recoil unit (RU) is fairly small; only one gun achieves a sub-unit measurement (L86 with Kick+Grip+Thermal, a mythical beast) and the rest are measured essentially in tens of recoil units. Only a perfect laser beam can achieve a measurement of 0. Of course, the unbiased and biased statistic produces different measurements. I guess we can call a unit of vertically biased recoil a "vertically adjusted unit" and denote it RU 2.77 (2.77 is the height-to-width bias ratio we've been using). I removed the percentile rankings, hoping that the absolute measurements will suffice as a way to compare weapons. Here are the results: Unbiased: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnFeORnwotj_dHBMT21TWHpoUV9VcnIwTlp6OWRZc3c#gid=0Biased: docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnFeORnwotj_dFR4NmVEVDNkMHNtSlAzLWktOGFLTFE#gid=0And no, I did not get a response from Stuart. I'm not sure if it was poor timing of the e-mail (Friday afternoon before England played Sweden in Euro) or if he just sees too much crap in his inbox on a regular basis to notice my e-mail. I really thought I'd at least get a token, "Sorry, I can't." I'll post the BO results tomorrow.
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Post by probaddie on Jun 17, 2012 13:30:15 GMT -5
Well that was much easier than expected.
So basically what I've done to get the new statistic is take the number I get from adding the variances together -- this is what the taxicab metric has always done -- and multiplied it by 100; it's that simple. The reason I multiply by 100 is because psijaka's recoil plots are recreated by simulating 10-round bursts. But since the sum of the two variances gives a squared distance, I took that factor of 10 and squared it to arrive at 100.
I'm going to hold off publishing the results as the sixth draft until Tuesday at the latest. The request to Stuart Brown was sent to what I assume is his business account, stu@rtbrown.org -- I thought that would be the least congested of his accounts. Thus, I don't expect a reply until Monday at the earliest. I'm holding out hope that we can get the GunKick numbers, and if we do I think we should mothball this project until we work out the proclivities of the GunKick mechanic in a separate thread. I was thinking about what effect GunKick woudl have on the method and it tuns out it's bit more complicated than just "adding" on the effect of GunKick's contribution to the recoil, even assuming the most favourable conditions.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jun 17, 2012 12:06:28 GMT -5
Just an update on what I'm doing. I'm working on standardizing the statistic so that it can be used to "measure" recoil. I originally said I would adjust the scores relative to the worst weapon in the game, but I've taken a different route. I've decided to simply use the raw score -- i.e. without transforming the statistic into a score out of 100 -- and made it into a sort of "recoil unit". You'll see what I mean shortly .
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jun 16, 2012 20:56:49 GMT -5
It does something; Hollow Points =P IW, master of stealth advantages. Reminds me of how when the PSG-1 first came out it had a useless 1.1 tummy multiplier. Further proof that the BLOPS was designed for Stawping Power. My guess is the team who did the BLAWPz gunm balance had absolutely no communication with the team that did perk balance. Would also Xplain FAMAS/AUG 35 Max damage would actually be balanced. And this is why two-year development cycles are poo.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jun 15, 2012 14:24:39 GMT -5
I think its well thought out and polite. If it will work? I think you'll get a response if he checks his messages often. If he will give you those stats is a mystery though. Isn't life a b!tch. I hope you get them. That message definitely was worth a few numbers. Here's hoping. I don't expect a response tonight; he probably hoofed it down to his favorite pub after work to watch England play Sweden in Euro 2012. (I know he's a footy fan because he mentioned his loyalties lie with Preston North End). And just as I finish that, England score. Yeah, no chance of an answer tonight. ;D
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jun 15, 2012 11:45:26 GMT -5
So I've decided to take it upon myself to ask Stuart if he can help with the GunKick numbers. Here is the e-mail I just sent him:
Do you think that will do?
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jun 14, 2012 21:55:46 GMT -5
Update: I've included a link to the BO results in the OP. I think I'll begin trying to standardize the actual statistic(s) so that they can be used to "measure" recoil. Meanwhile, hopefully the BO stats will create some sort of consensus to the biased vs. unbiased argument.
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probaddie
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Post by probaddie on Jun 14, 2012 14:36:12 GMT -5
I think you should have stuck to lurking... If you mean lurking under his bridge
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