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Post by iw5000 on Jan 11, 2015 23:01:29 GMT -5
This is an old topic, but this guy frames in a great way. Why not have player trading? To hit on one quick point he makes. Any shortcoming of the game's grind by trading, would be offset by people potentially redoing old content to build up older gear, to trade to others.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 12, 2015 7:18:52 GMT -5
Here's another good video by this guy. I haven't listened to all of it, but was able to hear a lot of it during a ride to work this morning. Some of what he says is just spot on correct. Especially around 11:00. He's talking about Crota's emphasis on the luck element, about the difficulties of raids. His opinion is a lot of the deaths in these raids are silly glitches. It comes down to luck. Not only with that, but also the silliness with the gun, which he then says this.........
"this isn't about skill. I don't want to hear a bunch of people with their dicks in their hands saying you are just not good enough. If you think you are good at Destiny, you have a 300 Gjallorhorn. I guarantee it you little fvcker. 99% of the end game, is just owning a Gjallorhorn. It really is."
I listened to it. Then listened to it again. Thought about it. Maybe i have been wrong, due to not having the Gjallorhorn yet ( I suppose hundreds of hours of play time isn't enough in Destiny? ) Just observations from people in my lobbies and what i read. But maybe he's right. I think back to most every VoG/Crota youtube video I have seen. All the solo stuff I watched. Having to listen to some (no one from here) sort of friends run their mouths about how good they are in this game, 'raid skill', etc......just about everything, like this guy says, circles right back to one word, "Gjallorhorn" Yeah. Every story cool raid story sounds like this:
"We did blah..blah...blah..blah, set up blah...did blah...blah..blah, get out to do blah..blah...[minutes of nonsense]..... ....then we hit 'em with our Gjallorhorns".
Yeah. That.
The more I think on this, it is really true. I go look at fifty Deathsinger videos, ... Gjallorhorn. Go watch hundred supposedly impressive Crota finish video ... Gjallorhorn. Just about every video/article/story ends with that gun. Isn't that kind of lame? It is. It's stupid. Like 500 guns in this game and every hard-content ends in the exact same manner. WittySkorpion is 100% right on this too, the gun is OP. It's dumb *
*(that said, I will gladly use this gun if I get it, as I am tired of grinding in this game. Anything, and I do mean anything (cheating, glitching, shortcuts, pay, etc.. that helps me finish faster, is on the table for me now)
Building on that issue. Destiny kind of builds up this huge epic story to this game. How one needs to tweak their armor settings, gun settings, get the right equipment balancing, all this stuff, all this TIME, so they can be ready to take on the ultimate of gaming, the big bad 'RAID'!!! Pffffttt. 'The Raid' turned out to be 2014's joke of the year, in terms the hype it built up being the height of console gaming. "30 minute Crota solo Gjallorhorn finishes is laughing at you.
But listen to this guy, it is all rather silly. The illusion we are under with this game. An illusion that we are in control of this process. There's absolutely no skill or control of leveling with the 30, 31, 32 stuff. It's just grinded gate locks. You control nothing. Do this, do that, play with a blindfold, all that matters is PLAYING 'x' hours to get to that level. And then as far as the finish, once you are there? It's all somewhat meaningless. Yes, six people do have to organize. Yes, six people can't be clueless, ...but ultimately it almost always goes right back to being 90% about ...[drum roll please] ...GJALLORHORN. I sometimes think six chimpanzees could finish Crota if they all had Gjallorhorns and enough attempts at button mashing. How great is that?
I'm not complaining just to complain. The game has great potential, why can't this be fixed? Bungie treats it's paying customers like idiots.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jan 12, 2015 9:45:32 GMT -5
On player trading: I'm all for it, with some limitations. The guy in the vid says he has no problem with someone gifting all their old legendary armor over to their friend who just hit level 20. Well I do have a problem with that, because now the noob who likely doesn't even have one subclass unlocked or the whole story done is going to be jumping into VoG or CE and wasting everyone's time trying to get carried through the raid. I've already seen this with guys that do nothing but cheese, and then are lost when it comes time to actually do something legit because not only do they not know the raid mechanics, they don't know many of the basic game mechanics either. Take the group I was in the other day that didn't know you could change your armor/recovery/agility by switching perks around in your subclass menu, for example. Now, if trading was limited to each side having to give up something of comparable value, I'd be more than fine with it. Exotic for an exotic, 2 legendaries for an exotic, raid gear for other raid gear, something like that would be great. Just don't allow people to trade 4 legendaries for one white or some bullshit like that.
On luck/Gjallarhorn/skill: I'd agree with the "a lot of deaths are due to stupid glitches" sentiment, especially for the VoG. It's not as bad in CE in my experience, but it still happens. As far as Gjallarhorn, yeah, it helps immensely, and anyone who doesn't admit that it makes the game quite a bit easier is lying to themselves, plain and simple. That being said, our group beat the VoG on hard with 4 29s and 2 30s (if I recall correctly) before any of us had Gjallarhorn. Everything in the game is perfectly doable without it. It doesn't turn a bad player into some kind of god, it just makes them less bad. There are people who've solo'd CE without Gjallarhorn, so it's not even necessary for what is probably the single most difficult task imaginable in the game at this time. 99% of the endgame is owning Gjallarhorn? Really? Maybe if you're an average player with an average group trying to get stuff done. Maybe. It's not even close to a requirement for a good coordinated group. We've proven this repeatedly.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Jan 12, 2015 9:49:55 GMT -5
I didn't give the first video my full attention nor did I listen to it all the way, but:
If you bring in player trading, you get the same shit different pile.
His argument is that RNG system rewards luck and not skill and people get frustrated because they beat a raid looking for something, and all they get are shards. Because they get frustrated, they stop playing or raiding because they can never get what they want to get.
But by instituting player trading, it's the same end result... I do raids, can't get the gear/weapons I want.. so I trade with my friend, get what I want, use it for a while... then stop playing/raiding because they have want they want and have no motivation to run it, except for amusement or some people beg you to. You're still quitting, not because you're frustrated that you never got the loot... you're quitting because you have the loot and now everything is too easy for you.
So really, RNG (while hideously frustrating) keeps people playing because you will still have people who will keep calm and try again, where as with player trading, all you need is a good connection and you get it without having to do a damn thing.
Here's how you solve the RNG problem:
1) you keep it but give the player an option as to what loot they want to choose... like when you get an exotic bounty: it pops up 2/3/4 choices. So... when you complete a raid, give the player the choice they can take from the chest (which should pop, and all the players should huddle over instead of just appearing in your inventory)... and here it is as well:
2) If you don't like what you get, you have the option to give it to someone else. So if you and I and mannon are raiding, and you want what I don't want... I can just click on it, inspect it, have a menu pop up, and have me select you to give to you.
But in terms of a market place, it won't solve anything... instead of bummed out power gamers who just get mad and rage because they don't get the gear that they want,so they quit.... you'll get bored, unchallenged power gamers who just get unmotivated and complain because they have everything they want and have no desire to do anything until the next update, so they quit.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 12, 2015 10:05:36 GMT -5
On luck/Gjallarhorn/skill: I'd agree with the "a lot of deaths are due to stupid glitches" sentiment, especially for the VoG. It's not as bad in CE in my experience, but it still happens. As far as Gjallarhorn, yeah, it helps immensely, and anyone who doesn't admit that it makes the game quite a bit easier is lying to themselves, plain and simple. That being said, our group beat the VoG on hard with 4 29s and 2 30s (if I recall correctly) before any of us had Gjallarhorn. Everything in the game is perfectly doable without it. It doesn't turn a bad player into some kind of god, it just makes them less bad. There are people who've solo'd CE without Gjallarhorn, so it's not even necessary for what is probably the single most difficult task imaginable in the game at this time. 99% of the endgame is owning Gjallarhorn? Really? Maybe if you're an average player with an average group trying to get stuff done. Maybe. It's not even close to a requirement for a good coordinated group. We've proven this repeatedly. I agree and disagree here. Agree on this. If you remove the Gjallorhorn, I really don't think it would make a huge difference. An extra rocket or two? No big deal. As you said, we've done it. It's not needed. But I disagree with you on this. And I think this is his point. You said this.... " 99% of the endgame is owning Gjallarhorn? Really? Well...yeah, 99% of the endgame IS the Gjallarhorn. If a person has it, it will be used. If you have it, are you really NOT going to use it, to challenge yourself? Hell no. The last six or nine Crota raids I have done, came down to getting one (or more) people who had it, and then blasting Crota with them. Even Dumien's post the other day about knocking Crota down in two shots, ...just one big Gjallorhorn orgy. A very interesting tactical example, but looking back, thinking on it...Level 32 and Gjallorhorns. There you go. The reality Heb is this. If you got it, you will use it. And with that again, YES .... 99% of the end game IS just Gjallorhorn smashing. Actually probably 99.99% of finishes. Miss a key tactic or move? No worries. Just Gjallorhorn smash as a quick fix. That's how we finish Crota now. I think that is where his point comes from. And for the most part, I think it's spot on correct. And I don't mean that as a knock on you/us/anyone. If you have it, why the fvck wouldn't you use it? A person would be fool to not use it. Who wants to play gimped? |
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 12, 2015 10:28:33 GMT -5
But by instituting player trading, it's the same end result... I do raids, can't get the gear/weapons I want.. so I trade with my friend, get what I want, use it for a while... then stop playing/raiding because they have want they want and have no motivation to run it, except for amusement or some people beg you to. You're still quitting, not because you're frustrated that you never got the loot... you're quitting because you have the loot and now everything is too easy for you. I think his point disagrees with you. And so do I. One, it could be done. They can institute player trading that forces trading on level terms even amongst friends. Legendary for Legendary. Raid for Raid. Crota stuff for Crota stuff. Or at worst, if that's deemed to unbalancing, then add some trading at a cost. Like for example, 15,000 glimmer being needed for BOTH sides to do a piece for piece, weapon/armor/combo trade. Two. There are some people who will get what they want and then quit. But you are wrong if you think it would be an equal 1 for 1. For every 100 people who get what they want.... most of them (51%? 70%? 80%?) will keep playing. Why they hell would they quit? You get an IceBreaker, you aren't going to reap the benefits now and enjoy using it to smash stuff for a while? Of course you are!!!! You have a more fully-invested character now, you will play even more. And the 'it's to easy' argument you make isn't a logical counterpoint. The reality is that for all these people who need just this one or two pieces of gear/weapons, the game is already ridiculously easy for them. They aren't going to quit due to ease of killing. (see the Gjallorhorn point) And for the newer player who many would say, is taking the cheap road....there is no harm here. To institute a trade, you need something to trade. This practice wouldn't shortcut any roads for people looking for a freebie. You want a Crota 'Black Hammer' from a friend? You best have something worthy to trade for it. Some blue gun with 242 damage isn't going to get the job done. But what the above WILL do, on a 100% success rate level, will be this. It will make EVERYONE feel less frustrated. Even if you do three Crota raids in a week, and get nothing but shards and your 4th Crota Fusion rifle, ...at least you'll know you can trade that gun in for something better. |
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jan 12, 2015 10:32:55 GMT -5
On luck/Gjallarhorn/skill: I'd agree with the "a lot of deaths are due to stupid glitches" sentiment, especially for the VoG. It's not as bad in CE in my experience, but it still happens. As far as Gjallarhorn, yeah, it helps immensely, and anyone who doesn't admit that it makes the game quite a bit easier is lying to themselves, plain and simple. That being said, our group beat the VoG on hard with 4 29s and 2 30s (if I recall correctly) before any of us had Gjallarhorn. Everything in the game is perfectly doable without it. It doesn't turn a bad player into some kind of god, it just makes them less bad. There are people who've solo'd CE without Gjallarhorn, so it's not even necessary for what is probably the single most difficult task imaginable in the game at this time. 99% of the endgame is owning Gjallarhorn? Really? Maybe if you're an average player with an average group trying to get stuff done. Maybe. It's not even close to a requirement for a good coordinated group. We've proven this repeatedly. I agree and disagree here. Agree on this. If you remove the Gjallorhorn, I really don't think it would make a huge difference. An extra rocket or two? No big deal. As you said, we've done it. It's not needed. But I disagree with you on this. And I think this is his point. You said this.... "99% of the endgame is owning Gjallarhorn? Really? Well...yeah, 99% of the endgame is owning the Gjallarhorn. If a person has it, it will be used. The last six raids I have done, came down to getting one (or more) people who had it, and then blasted Crota with. Even Dumien's post the other day about knocking Crota down in two shots, ...just one big Gjallorhorn orgy. The reality Heb is this. If you got it, you will use it. And with that, yes, 99% of the end game is just Gjallorhorn smashing. That's how we finish Crota now. And I don't mean that as a knock on you/us. If you have it, why the fvck wouldn't you use it? Who wants to play gimped? Well, yeah, it you've got it you're obviously going to use it. I'm just pointing out that you don't have to. I didn't watch the video, but that "this isn't about skill. I don't want to hear a bunch of people with their dicks in their hands saying you are just not good enough. If you think you are good at Destiny, you have a 300 Gjallorhorn. I guarantee it you little fvcker. 99% of the end game, is just owning a Gjallorhorn. It really is." comment is bullshit. If you're good at the game you don't need Gjallarhorn. You, Post, and many others do just fine without it. And it's not 99% of the endgame anyway. It's not even all that good for the Atheon fight because it makes him move around a bunch so everyone else has a harder time hitting him -- LMGs, snipers, and fusion rifles are generally better. Crota still requires the swordrunner to not suck, and is almost as easy if people dump any other launcher or LMG fire into him. You're better off with a void/arc weapon when there's a void/arc burn on Nightfall or the Weekly Heroic. Templar is more about sniping, at least with the way we do it. |
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jan 12, 2015 10:38:41 GMT -5
But by instituting player trading, it's the same end result... I do raids, can't get the gear/weapons I want.. so I trade with my friend, get what I want, use it for a while... then stop playing/raiding because they have want they want and have no motivation to run it, except for amusement or some people beg you to. You're still quitting, not because you're frustrated that you never got the loot... you're quitting because you have the loot and now everything is too easy for you. I think his point disagrees with you. And so do I. One, it could be done. They can institute player trading that forces trading on level terms even amongst friends. Legendary for Legendary. Raid for Raid. Crota stuff for Crota stuff. Or at worst, if that's deemed to unbalancing, then add some trading at a cost. Like for example, 15,000 glimmer being needed for BOTH sides to do a piece for piece, weapon/armor/combo trade. Two. There are some people who will get what they want and then quit. But you are wrong if you think it would be an equal 1 for 1. For every 100 people who get what they want.... most of them (51%? 70%? 80%?) will keep playing. Why they hell would they quit? You get an IceBreaker, you aren't going to reap the benefits now and enjoy using it to smash stuff for a while? Of course you are!!!! You have a more fully-invested character now, you will play even more. And the 'it's to easy' argument you make isn't a logical counterpoint. The reality is that for all these people who need just this one or two pieces of gear/weapons, the game is already ridiculously easy for them. They aren't going to quit due to ease of killing. (see the Gjallorhorn point) And for the newer player who many would say, is taking the cheap road....there is no harm here. To institute a trade, you need something to trade. This practice wouldn't shortcut any roads for people looking for a freebie. You want a Crota 'Black Hammer' from a friend? You best have something worthy to trade for it. Some blue gun with 242 damage isn't going to get the job done. But what the above WILL do, on a 100% success rate level, will be this. It will make EVERYONE feel less frustrated. Even if you do three Crota raids in a week, and get nothing but shards and your 4th Crota Fusion rifle, ...at least you'll know you can trade that gun in for something better. Agreed there, IW. If I was able to trade for everything I wanted, I don't see myself quitting. I'd still be playing to upgrade my new gear, rack up materials for the next DLC, possibly get raid armor with better stats, get other items to potentially trade in the future, etc. Some people might quit I guess, but a lot wouldn't, and frustration would definitely go down. |
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Dumien
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Post by Dumien on Jan 12, 2015 10:42:04 GMT -5
The kind of trading I would support is reward screen trading. For example, if you don't like what you get in the rewards screen after a strike or raid you can opt to offer a fireteam member a trade for their received item. They then have to option to decline or accept your offer. This maintains the value of the item... as in...the item recipient had to participate in the activity(even if they just joined at the end). In addition, this encourages extended play time without leading to newbie Borderlands dup syndrome.... the inexplicable (ahah) disease whereby you give a newbie friend all the good weapons and they only play for a week after reaching max level since there isn't anything more for them to chase after. This also disincentivizes players from soloing to get things done faster. Now you could argue this is good or bad, but playing with a full fireteam of friends would give you a better chance at getting the weapon you want.
On the flip side... dup glitches ALWAYS happen when free trade in games happen. I have a feeling that is the main reason Destiny devs ended up cutting trading (it was originally a hunter only Shtick) from the original game.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 12, 2015 10:51:27 GMT -5
;I'm just pointing out that you don't have to. I didn't watch the video, but that "this isn't about skill. I don't want to hear a bunch of people with their dicks in their hands saying you are just not good enough. If you think you are good at Destiny, you have a 300 Gjallorhorn. I guarantee it you little fvcker. 99% of the end game, is just owning a Gjallorhorn. It really is." comment is bullshit. If you're good at the game you don't need Gjallarhorn. You, Post, and many others do just fine without it. And it's not 99% of the endgame anyway. It's not even all that good for the Atheon fight because it makes him move around a bunch so everyone else has a harder time hitting him -- LMGs, snipers, and fusion rifles are generally better. Crota still requires the swordrunner to not suck, and is almost as easy if people dump any other launcher or LMG fire into him. You're better off with a void/arc weapon when there's a void/arc burn on Nightfall or the Weekly Heroic. Templar is more about sniping, at least with the way we do it. I think where he is coming from is this. He has a Gjallorhorn. But people gave him sh1t, telling him to stop complaining as he (supposedly, to them) wasn't good enough at this game. His reply is they are being silly. His reply is that almost all of these people are just stomping down Crota with a Gjallorhorn, and confusing 'auto-lock' and 'wolf rounds' with skill. I can't disagree with him on that. I think the point you are missing is this. Regardless of IF you can finish without the Gjallorhorn (we have done it) ..the reality is that people ARE using it to finish all the time, every time. And while there are examples of people finishing it with say a pistol, his point is that 99% of the gaming community just Gjallorhorn smashes Crota for the finish. Yes, other parts are important like swordbearer, but a few OP Gjallorhorns can mask even an incompetent sword runner. Is that good for the game? And I do think he is mostly talking about Crota, not things like VoG (Crota was his focus of the video) |
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 12, 2015 10:55:59 GMT -5
On the flip side... dup glitches ALWAYS happen when free trade in games happen. I have a feeling that is the main reason Destiny devs ended up cutting trading (it was originally a hunter only Shtick) from the original game. Yeah, I suppose that is one element that is always there. But would that necessarily be there, if Bungie had more faith in their game? Bungie seems scared to death to let their game fall back on it's own quality, and instead just rely on the crutch of 'grind' to sustain this game. It's like they don't trust the player base to keep playing because it's fun. And instead keep thinking they only way they can maintain a player base playing all the time, is IF they slap on all this bs. Bungie and 'grind' is like a addict on heroin. They can't stop using it. Every step of this game's way, they don't trust their own content, and instead mask it, cover it, with a thick layer of 'grind' and gated time locks. |
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wings
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Post by wings on Jan 12, 2015 11:25:08 GMT -5
The more I think on this, it is really true. I go look at fifty Deathsinger videos, ... Gjallorhorn. Go watch hundred supposedly impressive Crota finish video ... Gjallorhorn. Just about every video/article/story ends with that gun. Isn't that kind of lame? It is. It's stupid. Like 500 guns in this game and every hard-content ends in the exact same manner. WittySkorpion is 100% right on this too, the gun is OP. It's dumb * Which is why Xur will never sell the Gjallahorn again because people will be running through the Vault of Glass much more easily and be able to get more loot faster. Bungie are scared that if people have all of the exotics that they will stop playing. I have all the top tier weapons in Borderlands 2 but I still played afterwards because the skill trees were decent (granted they were designed for TVHM) so I could end up using non-optimal gear, or use different setups for my character. There's not much variety in class setups in Destiny and the short time for subsequent level caps makes it worse. I'm not complaining just to complain. The game has great potential, why can't this be fixed? Bungie treats it's paying customers like idiots. You mean like trying to convince the playerbase that the ammo bug is a complex issue? It's sad that this appears to be ignored by the developers for the sake of artificially prolonging the game's life. It's probably the same reason why when I travel through the Ishtar Academy, the Vex spawn with Epic modifiers to shoot me if I'm using my Sparrow even if I'm going round the edge. I will usually be forced off and I am in danger of dying if I am not careful. Yet I'm a ghost when I run through them in the middle with Goblins and minotaurs in my face, not even bothering to shoot them, to get to the Archive and they barely get a shot off on me. On player trading: I'm all for it, with some limitations. The guy in the vid says he has no problem with someone gifting all their old legendary armor over to their friend who just hit level 20. Well I do have a problem with that, because now the noob who likely doesn't even have one subclass unlocked or the whole story done is going to be jumping into VoG or CE and wasting everyone's time trying to get carried through the raid. I've already seen this with guys that do nothing but cheese, and then are lost when it comes time to actually do something legit because not only do they not know the raid mechanics, they don't know many of the basic game mechanics either. Take the group I was in the other day that didn't know you could change your armor/recovery/agility by switching perks around in your subclass menu, for example. Now, if trading was limited to each side having to give up something of comparable value, I'd be more than fine with it. Exotic for an exotic, 2 legendaries for an exotic, raid gear for other raid gear, something like that would be great. Just don't allow people to trade 4 legendaries for one white or some bullshit like that. Sounds like you should state "no cheesing" when you seek players to play with when Raiding. It's then up to you to filter out the players who can defeat Raid bosses without cheesing. Prohibiting trading because players resort to cheesing is just condoning poor game design. I would happily trade one of my Plan Cs (had four once) for his spare Atheon's Epilogue just to make the Nexus Nightfall (void burn) more bearable as it was pretty rough last time, although I solo'd it and I don't usually do that any more anyway. I feel the Youtube dude was right over the loot table. High end game content should reward high end game rewards. The only reason why garbage like Ascendant Materials and Strange Coins are given in Nightfall and the Vault of Glass is to artificially prolong the game's life. So then people play the Weekly Heroic instead to chance on Xur and he has a very limited stock and is only around for 48 hours anyway. Speaking of loot:  |
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 12, 2015 11:44:05 GMT -5
Which is why Xur will never sell the Gjallahorn again because people will be running through the Vault of Glass much more easily and be able to get more loot faster. Bungie are scared that if people have all of the exotics that they will stop playing. I have all the top tier weapons in Borderlands 2 but I still played afterwards because the skill trees were decent (granted they were designed for TVHM) so I could end up using non-optimal gear, or use different setups for my character. There's not much variety in class setups in Destiny and the short time for subsequent level caps makes it worse. ] .....And not only sell it, but I feel like Bungie has no desire to allow anyone with say 'x' hours of playtime, to ever get this gun either. Think on this. I got waaaaaaaaaaay to much time in on this game. I have hundreds of finishes on NF's, Weeklies, Iron Banner's and raids.... and I have been shut out on the Gjallorhorn. Random is one thing. But at some point, it seems pretty apparent that Bungie has no desire to let anyone with a lot of time played, get this gun. Like you said, they realize these players (like me) have most all other guns, so why let us further smash down this game with the Gjallorhorn? Again, just how many NF/Raids/etc finishes do I need to see before I get this gun? Serious question. Do I need another 500 hours to get it? And while on the topic of random, if the above truly is random....what is random about the Crota odds? How I can now finish like 12 Crota raids (or is it 15?) and have gotten FOUR raid LMG's....but not a single Black Hammer. There's nothing random there. I'm pretty sure it's statistically impossible if I did the math. There's nothing random about this process. It's purely 'fvcking with people'. My guess to all the above? Bungie has coding set up (or has since tweaked coding), to ensure a player has very low odds of getting all the OP weapons. They know they have OP weapons, but are scared to piss off players with the Gjallorhorn or IB, so they leave them alone and just keep the other 80% hanging on prayers, under the false pretense of you have a chance. Pfffttt. My guesss? You have the IB, and the HoC? You aren't getting the Gjallorhorn....(unless you put in over 1,000 hours to beat this) I'm pretty sure this was something tweaked into the game at some point, due to Bungie panicking over silly 'hours player per person' stats. Again, Bungie refuses to trust their game fun-abilities, and just keeps going right back to 'grind' as a way to keep people playing. |
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Post by Dumien on Jan 12, 2015 11:58:13 GMT -5
I think they don't have faith in their game at all. I agree...
Normal mode raid is us beta testing Hard mode for them. They aren't hiring testers... They fail to use the excellent work of the actually good writers... They fire their composer...
Yet their actual Beta test oozed confidence. So weird.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 12, 2015 12:08:15 GMT -5
I think they don't have faith in their game at all. I agree... Normal mode raid is us beta testing Hard mode for them. They aren't hiring testers... They fail to use the excellent work of the actually good writers... They fire their composer... Yet their actual Beta test oozed confidence. So weird. I get the concept that they are using us as beta testers. Ok. But here is why that doesn't work. I didn't pay 'beta level' pricing for the DLC. I paid like $20 for that DLC. I paid for a Raid, not a half-finished product that would employ me as slave labor (paying slave labor at that). Slave labor that would be needed to help Bungie find bugs, because they were to cheap to pay for that on their own. |
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Post by mannon on Jan 12, 2015 12:09:03 GMT -5
I don't mind grinding some, but having your grind exponentially increased or decreased by RNG is a bit unfair. I'm not saying we should remove randomness. Rewards are supposed to be a lottery. You don't know what's going to pop out when you open a chest, and that's what makes it kind of exciting. But it should really be mitigated. You shouldn't have to take anywhere from 1st raid to 100th, or worse before you finally get a raid helmet, or any other particular item. Sure, the system is slightly mollified because you can pickup guaranteed exotics from Xur to vastly increase your odds on getting full level 32 gear without having to get every single piece from the raid, but still... I'm glad that they apparently altered the loot code from VoG to CE so it's not just totally random. I don't know if it's enough or not... maybe.
I don't know if player trading is the best answer, but it is an answer. It does carry with it a lot of complications to address. Duping could be an issue, though I don't see why it can't be handled. We are talking about an online only game with no offline component. All our items are on Destiny's servers. That doesn't mean there wouldn't potentially be dup opportunities, hell we already know we can dup bounties. But if Bungie really wanted to I think they could give us trading in a manner that does not create dups, you just have to be careful with your code and account for potential network errors or glitches or people trying to deliberately exploit.
I don't know that it really fits with the character of Destiny. There aren't really hundreds and hundreds of items to be interested in. There are may 50? or so armor pieces per class that are interesting if you include raid, vanguard, factions, and exotics. Probably more weapons, but those aren't class specific. Anything below legendary is basically pointless to trade. Trading would also circumvent Destiny's deliberate content gating even if you are trading like for like, they put a cap on marks, there's only so many bounties, and now you need commendations... When it comes down to it beyond a certain point you start getting diminishing returns on playtime/realtime. They are careful not to cut off any and all rewards, but they do limit you quite a bit on purpose and if you can trade then you can get around some of that.
Not that I'm all for all the gating... I think commendations are particularly egregious, in fact. Pretty much the very same activities that award rep also award marks, all commendations do is ensure that your marks sit there doing you no good until you go farm up some more rep, but there's already a cap on marks. Why isn't that cap enough? In my opinion it was merely a way to ever so slightly slow people down with the release of TDB. Since you can simply buy all the gear for level 31 and people already had marks stockpiled, they added commendations as an additional barrier. Granted, not much of one, since only two of the vanguard armor require them. They are more of a barrier for the new weapons, but a lot of the new weapons are also pretty lackluster, so what's the point? And we can still buy exotics from Xur. *shrug* It's double dipping and it's just going to force me to waste marks I would otherwise have spent...
RNG can definitely be annoying, though. And I would surely like to see more factors to mitigate it. I've been using hand cannons almost exclusively since I upgraded from green to blue weapons... so now pretty much the majority of my play time. Why is that, do I love them? Well yes and no... In beta I HEAVILY preferred scout rifle to everything else. It was my baby. I never even had a decent AR and the hand cannons were all trash. In release I intended to go AR for my warlock and send all the precision weapons to my Hunter, which at first, I did. Turns out I do like AR's. But the Hunter thing didn't work so I started collecting one of each on my Warlock. Eventually I got my first blue weapons and they were... hand cannons. Now I actually liked these hand cannons. They were fun so I used them, but also kept hoping for a decent blue AR, which never really came. Before it did boom I get TDYK. I use it like twice and shard my blue hand cannons, it's WAY better. Eventually I get the rest of my primaries upgraded to blues, but by now I have three legendary primaries... all three are hand cannons. REALLY?! I'm having the weapon I use dictated by RNG rather than my own preference... I'm not complaining toooooo much, because they are fun to use. It could have been worse. I could have gotten only legendary pulse rifles. O,O Still... I'm left having to make up the slack of RNG by grinding out New Monarchy just to get a decent AR. And I could probably get something else from the Vanguard, but now I need a commendation and I'm gonna need that for a chest piece so I can use exotic gloves instead of only chest. I still don't have very good sniper rifles, and one of my MG's is a fecking green, but oh well... I'm just annoyed that my primary weapons have been dictated by RNG for sooooooo long. I want a decent AR. My blue is a maxed out TDB era blue, but it is still too weak for my level, especially now that much of the level 28 content has been bumped to 30.
Anyway, I'll get there...
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jan 12, 2015 12:12:39 GMT -5
iw5000: Ok, went ahead and watched the vid. Agree and disagree with him on different stuff, but honestly I don't even know what that Gjallarhorn remark had to do with anything. Complaining at people complaining about him complaining about certain gear only being available on hard mode, and saying skill has anything to do with it? He's right, it doesn't have anything to do with skill, all the loot drops are total RNG, skill means nothing. Everyone with half a brain knows this. Dude is just whining because people gave him shit for some reason, and decided to go off on some tangent about Gjallarhorn. What does Gjallarhorn or its impact on the endgame have to do with his point about certain gear only dropping on hard mode? Nothing, he's bitching just to bitch. You've latched on to an offhand 15 second remark that doesn't really have anything to do with the other 23 minutes of the video. I guess my response to your point about people using Gjallarhorn all the time is: who cares? Honestly, what difference does it make? We're going to clear the content either way. Does it really matter what weapon we use to do it? If it does, I'll happily leave mine in the vault this week so I can help enrich everyone's experience or whatever. Also, Gjallarhorns don't mask an incompetent swordrunner. I've seen that first hand. If your swordrunner sucks, nothing is going to mask him. wings: You missed my point entirely. Like I said, trading would be perfectly fine if each side is giving up something of comparable value. I was just pointing out issues that could and will arise if one person could gift all their stuff to a brand new player. It's not going to be an issue for me, because I have a group of guys here to play with 95% of the time, but it could impact a lot of other people. I was just giving an example that happened once when I decided to make a CE run just for fun. One last thing for everyone: RNG gonna RNG. You guys saying that Bungie is controlling this, that, and the other with regards to exotic drops, Xur sales, and everything else have to understand how randomness works. Random means random. It means that I could get Patience and Time two times in a row from the first CE chest (this actually did happen the other day). It means I could get nothing but shards 50 times in a row. It means you might have 4 Plan Cs and no Ice Breaker, while THebb has 2 Gjallarhorns and an Ice Breaker and has never gotten Plan C. Is any of that statistically unlikely? Yes, very. Statistically impossible? No, not at all. Over a huge sample of players, it's practically GUARANTEED to happen to somebody. That somebody just happened to be you -- sorry. Humans are built to detect patterns, and are absolutely TERRIBLE at dealing with randomness, which is why there is all the bitching and Bungie conspiracy theories and everything else. I'm sure there a plenty of people with 3 Gjallarhorns and 3 Ice Breakers who you'll never hear complain about not getting Red Death because nobody gives a fuck about Red Death, but EVERYONE who has gotten multiples of other exotics but no Gjallarhorn is bitching about it because Gjallarhorn is what everyone wants. I hope Xur sells Gjallarhorn this week and Ice Breaker next week just so everyone will shut the fuck up about it already. It's a tired argument and frankly, a stupid one, if you have any idea of what random actually means. The only instance where I could actually see Bungie controlling Xur's stock was a couple weeks ago, when everything he had was a DLC item. Even that is perfectly explainable by randomness, though. Ok, rant over. Sorry if I offended anyone.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 12, 2015 12:23:19 GMT -5
iw5000: Ok, went ahead and watched the vid. Agree and disagree with him on different stuff, but honestly I don't even know what that Gjallarhorn remark had to do with anything. Complaining at people complaining about him complaining about certain gear only being available on hard mode, and saying skill has anything to do with it? He's right, it doesn't have anything to do with skill, all the loot drops are total RNG, skill means nothing. Everyone with half a brain knows this. Dude is just whining because people gave him shit for some reason, and decided to go off on some tangent about Gjallarhorn. What does Gjallarhorn or its impact on the endgame have to do with his point about certain gear only dropping on hard mode? Nothing, he's bitching just to bitch. You've latched on to an offhand 15 second remark that doesn't really have anything to do with the other 23 minutes of the video. I guess my response to your point about people using Gjallarhorn all the time is: who cares? Honestly, what difference does it make? We're going to clear the content either way. Does it really matter what weapon we use to do it? If it does, I'll happily leave mine in the vault this week so I can help enrich everyone's experience or whatever. Also, Gjallarhorns don't mask an incompetent swordrunner. I've seen that first hand. If your swordrunner sucks, nothing is going to mask him. I think you are misreading my comments. With my agreement with the author's point, and my own personal feelings of when I play. I would personally be pissed if you didn't use yours. I've already said regarding me, ...I am going to use whatever OP weapon I can get my hand on and hope everyone does too. IB, Gjallorhorn, whatever...I'm using it. I have suffered enough at the hands of the random loot/grind Destiny Gods. They owe me. I'm using EVERY available glitch, trick and weapon to finish the job as quickly as possible. So the above isn't the point I was latching onto. I think it's this. You are right, the job will get done either way. Who cares. But maybe the point is we have like 500 guns in this game, and just about every high-end content part in this game, ultimately ends with the same one gun. The Gjallorhorn finish. It kind of reduces the whole aura of the Raid, to some degree. Why not a couple different ways to kill? |
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jan 12, 2015 12:23:46 GMT -5
Here's a ray of hope for the Gjallarhornless amongst us: somebody on reddit ran the math, and there's a 97% or so probability that Xur will sell Gjallarhorn this year. God help us if he doesn't, because people for some reason can't comprehend that a 97% chance for something to happen also means there's a 3% chance it won't, and 3% is not impossible, it's 3%.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 12, 2015 13:30:21 GMT -5
iw5000: One last thing for everyone: RNG gonna RNG. You guys saying that Bungie is controlling this, that, and the other with regards to exotic drops, Xur sales, and everything else have to understand how randomness works. Random means random. It means that I could get Patience and Time two times in a row from the first CE chest (this actually did happen the other day). It means I could get nothing but shards 50 times in a row. It means you might have 4 Plan Cs and no Ice Breaker, while THebb has 2 Gjallarhorns and an Ice Breaker and has never gotten Plan C. Is any of that statistically unlikely? Yes, very. Statistically impossible? No, not at all. Over a huge sample of players, it's practically GUARANTEED to happen to somebody. That somebody just happened to be you -- sorry. Humans are built to detect patterns, and are absolutely TERRIBLE at dealing with randomness, which is why there is all the bitching and Bungie conspiracy theories and everything else. You are right on one part. Given enough people (6 million) and given enough attempts ( 9 million Crota finishes - 20% of player base finishing ave of six times), there will be statistical anomalies. Flip a coin a million times, you stand over a 1/3 of a chance of seeing 20 heads in a row happen. Here's the thing though, where i disagree. Humans in the past might have been terrible with dealing with randomness, but we have a good understanding of how probability works these days. There is randomness as implied by Bungie that we all have a fair shake at getting something as loot. And then there is what we are seeing. What you are downplaying as a conspiracy theory, could very well be in-game coding to limit the availability of what is the game's most OP weapons. Taking what we think is 'random' and making it a loaded Vegas craps game. For example. In theory, if Bungie were playing this straight up as random (as they want us to believe) we should have 1 in 12 odds of getting a weapon like the Black Hammer. As the prizes are - Shards, Energies, Vehicle, Bracelet, four armor pieces and the four weapons. That's 12. Put the odds at 1 in 12. Give me 12 shots, odds are 65% of me getting a Black Hammer. But I don't have it. Fair enough. I am one of those 35%. But keep going. How many attempts do we need to test for, to account for silliness like four Light of the Abyss's in just 12 Crota finishes? Especially so assuming normal randomness as Bungie leads us to believe? Pretty sure this is a straight forward binomial distribution calculation, and doing so, puts my odds at 0.00007 That's one in 14,282. Really? I just pulled off the 1 in 15,000 lucky bounce? (did that quick, someone please double check it) I think the simplest answer might lead to the best answer. It's not a conspiracy theory to think that Bungie rigged the game, in the coding, to ensure some OP weapons don't land in certain player's hands. And to what you said, why would Bungie rig the coding (not make it pure random) to ensure the Red Death doesn't appear to many times? Why? BEcause the gun sucks. Bungie doesn't give a rat's azz how many people have it. Most of us shred it. But.... Bungie does care how many Gjallorhorns people have, as is well noted by their reluctance to open it up in the Xur marketplace. Why is it so hard to believe, that Bungie is trying to restrict what weapons people get, under the disguise of 'randomness'. This isn't a conspiracy theory. |
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Jan 12, 2015 13:36:44 GMT -5
I think we need to take the Tin Foil hats off... there's no conspiracy.
I agree with Hebb... take a misunderstanding about what randomness is, throw in a small pool of exotics to get, and add a strong swig of entitlement-esque attitude where they should be able to get what they want whenever they want it (not aimed at anyone specific, but culturally en masse)... you get the tinfoil hats coming out.
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 12, 2015 13:45:26 GMT -5
I think we need to take the Tin Foil hats off... there's no conspiracy. I agree with Hebb... take a misunderstanding about what randomness is, throw in a small pool of exotics to get, and add a strong swig of entitlement-esque attitude where they should be able to get what they want whenever they want it (not aimed at anyone specific, but culturally en masse)... you get the tinfoil hats coming out. You guy a framing 'conspiracy' with something dastardly or evil. Is it such a stretch to think that Bungie took what were originally certain odds, and after seeing how OP the Gjallorhorn is, they tweaked the settings to ensure it comes out less? How is that a conspiracy? We already know Bungie doesn't want it in people's hands, at least more people. Question for you guys who are mocking this. Why hasn't the Gjallorhorn been sold since that early weekend? I've seen other pieces of equipment and guns come out a few times now. |
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Jan 12, 2015 13:50:18 GMT -5
I think we need to take the Tin Foil hats off... there's no conspiracy. I agree with Hebb... take a misunderstanding about what randomness is, throw in a small pool of exotics to get, and add a strong swig of entitlement-esque attitude where they should be able to get what they want whenever they want it (not aimed at anyone specific, but culturally en masse)... you get the tinfoil hats coming out. You guy a framing 'conspiracy' with something dastardly or evil. Is it such a stretch to think that Bungie took what were originally certain odds, and after seeing how OP the Gjallorhorn is, they tweaked the settings to ensure it comes out less? How is that a conspiracy? We already know Bungie doesn't want it in people's hands, at least more people. Question for you guys who are mocking this. Why hasn't the Gjallorhorn been sold since that early weekend? I've seen other pieces of equipment and guns come out a few times now. Conspiracy is agreeing to do something, especially secretily, for unlawful or evil intent. At least, that's what I've been told, learned, and read I do not think that Bungie is making a secret and unlawful pacts to keep loot from us. Do I think that they are rare loot (not blue background) rare and hard to get... sure. Do I think that's why they haven't sold Gjallorhorn... yes. Do I think it's a conspiracy? No. Do I think it's intended... yes. Do I expect it to get sold then nerfed in the next dlc/update/expansion... eff yes |
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 12, 2015 13:56:51 GMT -5
Well, I never used the word conspiracy. You and Heb did, implying that's what I said.
I said this,
"My guess to all the above? Bungie has coding set up (or has since tweaked coding), to ensure a player has very low odds of getting all the OP weapons. They know they have OP weapons, but are scared to piss off players with the Gjallorhorn or IB, so they leave them alone and just keep the other 80% hanging on prayers, under the false pretense of you have a chance"
The above isn't a conspiracy by any stretch of the imagination.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Jan 12, 2015 13:58:37 GMT -5
Well, I never used the word conspiracy. You and Heb did, implying that's what I said. I said this, "My guess to all the above? Bungie has coding set up (or has since tweaked coding), to ensure a player has very low odds of getting all the OP weapons. They know they have OP weapons, but are scared to piss off players with the Gjallorhorn or IB, so they leave them alone and just keep the other 80% hanging on prayers, under the false pretense of you have a chance" The above isn't a conspiracy by any stretch of the imagination. My mistake.... I'm not paying attention as much as I should today |
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Post by iw5000 on Jan 12, 2015 13:59:57 GMT -5
No need to apologize, it's all good. An interesting topic.
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markopolo
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Post by markopolo on Jan 12, 2015 14:06:27 GMT -5
When I'm wrong, I apologize... besides, I'm canadian
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jan 12, 2015 14:29:43 GMT -5
iw5000: I might potentially think you'd have a point if Xur hadn't already sold both Ice Breaker and Gjallarhorn, but even then, probably not. Think about this: Xur has NEVER sold Hard Light, Universal Remote, or Thunderlord! Is there something shady there too, where you'd think Bungie might have tweaked the coding to lower the odds of us getting those guns? Fuck no, obviously not, and nobody would ever think so, because those guns are either OK or plain terrible. There are now 14 exotic weapons that Xur can sell. Assuming pure random chance, there's a 7.1% chance for any one weapon to get sold in a given week. Or more to the point, there's an 85.8% chance Xur will not be selling Gjallarhorn OR Ice Breaker! The game has been out for 18 weeks. Is it really that out of the ordinary for Xur to not have sold Gjallarhorn or Ice Breaker more than once? No. I mean, come on. I don't even see how there's an argument to be made there. If a year from now he's sold everything else 5 times and still hasn't resold Gjallarhorn or Ice Breaker, then maybe I'd start to lean your way. As far as the raid weapon drops, who knows? I don't think they've ever said that's purely random. In fact, it's obviously not! You're guaranteed to get either shards or energy at every single drop. There's probably a 50/50 chance either way there. Then there's probably a 50% or so percent chance at getting any one armor item, for a 12.5% chance at any individual item (50%/4 armor pieces). Then there could be a 50% chance at any weapon, for a 10% chance for each individual weapon (50%/5 weapons). That's all just speculation as your guess is as good as mine as far as what the loot tables actually look like.
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Post by wings on Jan 12, 2015 14:31:34 GMT -5
Which is why Xur will never sell the Gjallahorn again because people will be running through the Vault of Glass much more easily and be able to get more loot faster. Bungie are scared that if people have all of the exotics that they will stop playing. I have all the top tier weapons in Borderlands 2 but I still played afterwards because the skill trees were decent (granted they were designed for TVHM) so I could end up using non-optimal gear, or use different setups for my character. There's not much variety in class setups in Destiny and the short time for subsequent level caps makes it worse. ] .....And not only sell it, but I feel like Bungie has no desire to allow anyone with say 'x' hours of playtime, to ever get this gun either. Think on this. I got waaaaaaaaaaay to much time in on this game. I have hundreds of finishes on NF's, Weeklies, Iron Banner's and raids.... and I have been shut out on the Gjallorhorn. Random is one thing. But at some point, it seems pretty apparent that Bungie has no desire to let anyone with a lot of time played, get this gun. Like you said, they realize these players (like me) have most all other guns, so why let us further smash down this game with the Gjallorhorn? Again, just how many NF/Raids/etc finishes do I need to see before I get this gun? Serious question. Do I need another 500 hours to get it? And while on the topic of random, if the above truly is random....what is random about the Crota odds? How I can now finish like 12 Crota raids (or is it 15?) and have gotten FOUR raid LMG's....but not a single Black Hammer. There's nothing random there. I'm pretty sure it's statistically impossible if I did the math. There's nothing random about this process. It's purely 'fvcking with people'. My guess to all the above? Bungie has coding set up (or has since tweaked coding), to ensure a player has very low odds of getting all the OP weapons. They know they have OP weapons, but are scared to piss off players with the Gjallorhorn or IB, so they leave them alone and just keep the other 80% hanging on prayers, under the false pretense of you have a chance. Pfffttt. My guesss? You have the IB, and the HoC? You aren't getting the Gjallorhorn....(unless you put in over 1,000 hours to beat this) I'm pretty sure this was something tweaked into the game at some point, due to Bungie panicking over silly 'hours player per person' stats. Again, Bungie refuses to trust their game fun-abilities, and just keeps going right back to 'grind' as a way to keep people playing. I wouldn't be surprised by this. There's already enough discussions over whether Xur's offerings are 100% RNG and there was a video on Twitch where DeeJ stated it was hand picked by staff. The video was removed. Every item during the first DLC week had all DLC items to buy from Xur and I think Iron Banner is coming this Tuesday having sold The Last Word last weekend. Could be a coincidence but it's not surprising people would question that it isn't. It's the same thing with Voidfang Vestments being offered seven times on the bounce. I think if the Gjallahorn was sold by Xur again, the Wolfpack rounds might get nerfed. Why? Too many people have successfully completed the Nightfall and Raid. I seem to remember the "under the platform cheese" for Aksor being patched after the Ice Breaker was sold by Xur. The thing is, they could soften the stance towards RNG and people will be claiming it is less of a grind fest. Even getting the Gunsmith to change the element and perks on your legendaries for Strange Coins would probably go down well. Personal bias on that one because the Cryptarch gave me the Satrienne Rapier without the Firefly perk - Epic troll! I'd have grinded for the Crucible version already if the Crucible Marks were doubled. It appears the Gjallahorn is being treated like the Norfleet in Borderlands 2 where a high majority of people could not get it to drop from Vermi (UVHM only) and Hyperious (DLC 1). It was also the most requested legendary item for the free legendary weapon Gearbox gave out as a SHiFT code, but they decided on the Baby Maker. It's only a powerful SMG for specific builds with Axton and Gaige (DLC), and a fairly easy farm anyway. They don't want people to have the Norfleet because it makes the game much easier despite making Salvador easy mode anyway. I don't know why developers don't trust the fun factor and their craftmanship more. I have recently read the grimoire "Ghost Fragment: Fallen" and I wonder how this didn't make it into the game. |
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Post by hebbnh on Jan 12, 2015 14:45:00 GMT -5
Last point on probabilities: Stone, you calculate your odds of getting 4 fusion rifles in 12 raids as 1 in 15,000 or so? The odds of being struck by lightning in the United States in a given year are 1 in 700,000. On average, over the last 30 years, 51 people have died each year due to being struck by lightning. What does that have to do with anything? I have no idea, but I thought it was a fun stat. Shit like that happens everyday and nobody even thinks twice about it, so forgive me if I tend to write off all the "Bungie tweaks weapon drop coding because reasons" stuff as nonsense. People don't understand how probability works, and it's obvious.
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