wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
|
Post by wittyscorpion on May 6, 2015 15:41:05 GMT -5
I did not watch the stream, but I scraped the following tidbits of info from twitter:
|
|
wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
|
Post by wittyscorpion on May 6, 2015 15:47:13 GMT -5
Uploaded videos:
Bungie twitch replay:
Datto:
MoreConsole:
|
|
wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
|
Post by wittyscorpion on May 6, 2015 15:52:12 GMT -5
First impression: players who care much more about loots than actually overcoming challenges most likely will prefer PoE over Raid, because:
1) easier to get to, since finding 2 teammates is a lot easier than finding 5;
2) teammates' experience matters much less;
3) much less demanding time commitment;
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on May 7, 2015 8:05:52 GMT -5
Maybe there are less people playing, so Bungie didn't want to release something that required groups of six.
|
|
wings
True Bro
Posts: 3,776
|
Post by wings on May 7, 2015 8:40:05 GMT -5
Well this new activity would need to be fairly quick if you cannot use checkpoints because sooner or later someone will get weaseled/babooned at the final wave only for someone to drop in and get the loot for doing sod all. So defeating waves of enemies like we do throughout the game anyway? I didn't think Raids were that long actually, just artificially made longer in Crota due to glitches and hard mode being epic bullet sponges forcing eveyone to use tracking rockets.
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on May 7, 2015 8:53:48 GMT -5
Well this new activity would need to be fairly quick if you cannot use checkpoints because sooner or later someone will get weaseled/babooned at the final wave only for someone to drop in and get the loot for doing sod all. So defeating waves of enemies like we do throughout the game anyway? I didn't think Raids were that long actually, just artificially made longer in Crota due to glitches and hard mode being epic bullet sponges forcing eveyone to use tracking rockets. Crota raid is pretty fast. I soloed a DeathSinger checkpoint last night, in maybe ten minutes on normal? So maybe 20 minutes tops? YouTuber record is 12 minutes. Either way, it's fast. I can't remember VoG normal run lengths. 45 minutes for fastest group? Something like that. Regular group of people is probably around 55 to 65 minutes. It's a fair bit longer than Crota.
|
|
markopolo
True Bro
Once a LMG Camper, Then a Voidlock, Now a Lexington 25-8-366 Runner
Posts: 5,567
|
Post by markopolo on May 7, 2015 10:45:57 GMT -5
Another big impression was that everyone has to do something
Half your team can't just sit there and take out Crota while one guys does the work... if you stand too long, you die.
Imma have to git good... this thing is gonna kick my butt
|
|
wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
|
Post by wittyscorpion on May 7, 2015 11:11:34 GMT -5
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on May 7, 2015 11:20:13 GMT -5
After seeing what happened with CE I personally am hoping the hardest of the hard modes for PoE will be very hard indeed. The community at large needs the challenge. There seem to be no shortage of challenges and ways to play it, and I'm sure some of those will be much more accessible.
We also have not seen anybody try to tackle it with the increased level cap and all the new HoW gear. That could make a pretty big difference. Here's hoping we don't just see someone rush through it all on day 1 solo with a Gjallelujahorn. (Personally I'm also hoping other heavy weapons will be more useful by comparison since really the one key thing the Ghorn does better than anything else is single target DPS. With a waves type of activity that could be mitigated... though there will be bosses, so who knows.)
|
|
wings
True Bro
Posts: 3,776
|
Post by wings on May 7, 2015 11:29:55 GMT -5
Or it could be that Bungie employees suck at their own game, more than the game is difficult? Only developer of a game that sticks out straight away who is a top level player is Ed Boon for Mortal Kombat last I heard. Superb.
|
|
markopolo
True Bro
Once a LMG Camper, Then a Voidlock, Now a Lexington 25-8-366 Runner
Posts: 5,567
|
Post by markopolo on May 7, 2015 11:41:27 GMT -5
Here's why... at least imho.....
Look at Crota. Everyone knows what to do, what their role is, and for a lot of players (like me, I freely admit) can freeload.
Me in the Abyss: sitting on my ass letting the hunter do the work Me in the bridge: ressing and sniping Me in the hallway: letting those with gjallies take out the shreikers and try not to get killed Me in the Deathsinger: sniping boomers Me in Crota: icebreakering crota and trying not to die when we go to the ogre room... and if someone dies, shooting the oversoul
In most, all of those... I am in a safe spot where I can't be touched or at the very least, protected. and I know I'm not alone... in VoG and CsE, everyone knows where to go and what to do and how to stay safe and (especially for crota) let one person do most/all the work. And I know I'm not alone.
PoE won't be like that... at all. In fact, from what I saw from Planet Destiny's video... it's going to be organized chaos... enemies from everywhere, bosses with damage type switching shields... very few safe spots and time to catch ones breath. Swarms of enemies and basically, no use for any sniper rifle at all. It seems that you won't be able to "carry dead weight" like me... hell, in the VoG runs yesterday, the others 4 manned it and I just got the loot... that ain't gonna happen in PoE... if someone dies, the $hit'll hit the fan pretty quick.
I might practice some of the more "horde mode-ish" missions to practice this... mostly Hive... but if you can't pull your weight in PoE, yer done.
Time for me to git gewd
|
|
wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
|
Post by wittyscorpion on May 7, 2015 11:44:42 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on May 7, 2015 11:56:52 GMT -5
Some of these higher or harder levels, are just giant bullet sponging contests.
|
|
wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
|
Post by wittyscorpion on May 7, 2015 12:02:04 GMT -5
Or it could be that Bungie employees suck at their own game, more than the game is difficult? Only developer of a game that sticks out straight away who is a top level player is Ed Boon for Mortal Kombat last I heard. Superb. Could also because they had a bad combination of classes. To defuse a mine by standing near it for 10-15 seconds, I imagine that the most effective way is to use Defender bubble. Bladedancer crouch invisibility immediately followed by super invisibility should work as well. Some of these higher or harder levels, are just giant bullet sponging contests. That's pretty much a given The article did mention this: Maybe there will be a Crota like boss that requires a relic user to go for the kill after teammates removing shields, or a Templar like boss that requires relic user to take out the shield and the teammates take down health.
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on May 7, 2015 12:28:20 GMT -5
other good article, that get into some flaws with this DLC ---------------------------- "Starting out, the Weekly Heroic Strike, the Nightfall Strike, and of course the Vault of Glass Raid required premade teams. Now we have Crota’s End, and Wolves introduces The Trials of Osiris (requiring 3-man teams in PvP) and The Prison of Elders (requiring 3-man teams for its 32, 34 and 35 level challenges, three separate activities). With the Heroic Strike finally getting matchmaking, that is still seven top-tier pieces of content that require premade groups to complete." www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/05/07/everything-in-destiny-needs-matchmaking-yes-everythi"The current system is broken for someone like me, and from everything I’ve read and heard from fans, I’m not alone. Recent stats have shown that only 19% of Guardians have ever completed a Raid. A Raid. The entire point of the game, and the single best type of content it has to offer. 81% of the playerbase has never even beat it once. That’s a travesty." www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/03/25/destiny-stats-remind-us-just-how-casual-the-playerbase-really-is/
|
|
markopolo
True Bro
Once a LMG Camper, Then a Voidlock, Now a Lexington 25-8-366 Runner
Posts: 5,567
|
Post by markopolo on May 7, 2015 12:52:01 GMT -5
1st off... those are only PSN stats.
2nd... h8rs gonna h8 h8 h8
No matter what system Bungie will choose to do, there will always be negatives. Futhermore, the "gulf" that the author states, is (if one chooses) a one time thing by simply recreating the same class. Just like I did... got my warlocks up to level 20, trip to the vault, 4 eq switches and I was a 32.
As for the no-raid completers, one of the biggest reasons why people have never completed a raid, is that they never have done one... due to no friends. By giving matchmaking, you negate that. And before you say, but use a LFG website polo... I have... and they're chock full of "Must have gjallie" requirements. Thanks but no thanks
|
|
wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
|
Post by wittyscorpion on May 7, 2015 13:15:47 GMT -5
Regarding LFG: LFG is definitely an "adventure" with highly unpredictable outcomes, but one can argue that it is not that different from matchmaking. It DOES require a bit more human interaction, most important being talking on mic, which some players don't feel comfortable doing . For players who don't mind that, you'll find that finding teammates through LFG websites is almost as easy as MM, with the added benefits of able to do some preliminary screening. That said: most of the bros here choose not to LFG for Raid because we don't enjoy the experience of playing with random people on challenging activities that require high degree of cooperation. Same reasons apply to no-MM as well. In this sense: I still think that Bungie made the right call to not support MM for Raid. Same goes for ToO: it requires great teamwork to succeed, MM will ruin the experience. For strikes on the other hand, I think Bungie should add MM for Nightfall. Let's face it: none of the existing strikes require high degree of cooperation, the only issue with MM is the AFKers. With a system of punishing AFKers in place, hopefully that will become less and less of a problem over time. For PoE I am on the fence, only because I still yet to play it to find out how much cooperation is required. At this point I am fine with Bungie's decision of having MM only at level 28 (PoE's equivalent of the RoC strike). My opinion on this matter is definitely going to change after playing through it enough number of times, say 2 months. At that point I'll have a definitive opinion whether it should support MM or not.
With 3-player ToO and PoE not supporting matchmaking and require pre-made team, it might be a good thing for the "LFG movement". Let me explain. If you are a player open to the idea of LFG (again, there is nothing wrong if you are against it, because playing with random people who talk a lot with attitude can be seriously damaging ), you'll know that it is difficult to find 5 people your like. Find 2 on the other hand can be surprisingly easy. Once you have a team of 3, it is not difficult to find another team of 3 for a team of 6, if you want to get into Raid after having played enough PoE / ToO. The 2 teams of 3 don't have to have great chemistry, as long as both team of 3 do. Because of the above, I am hopeful that the percentage of raid completions can go up after HoW (out of a stabilized player base, assuming that Destiny can maintain one with the current + HoW level of content). Players who have not played raid much in the past can use 3-player ToO/PoE as stepping stone to form a team of 6 and then go for raid.
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on May 7, 2015 13:36:59 GMT -5
I don't even know how to do the LFG thing.
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on May 7, 2015 13:44:52 GMT -5
I did see an interesting way around the LFG thing for NF on Reddit. The idea was just jump right into your NF, then hang out in the public area at the start and wait for somebody to show up and invite them. Odds are you can meet other people also doing the NF that way without having to go out of game. Granted, it's gonna be hit or miss and your best odds are probably on Tuesdays after reset, but still. Could work out...
I'd really love if they built some sort of LFG into the game. I think they should use the so called "social" spaces for it actually, considering the only social activities really happening there now are horsing around with balls and dance parties. It would be nice to have actual socializing there.
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on May 7, 2015 13:45:35 GMT -5
Hey Marko. Maybe you and I should do the 100 thing and try to get in the same 100 or whatever. Not totally sure how it works. ;3
|
|
|
Post by iw5000 on May 7, 2015 13:48:16 GMT -5
I did see an interesting way around the LFG thing for NF on Reddit. The idea was just jump right into your NF, then hang out in the public area at the start and wait for somebody to show up and invite them. Odds are you can meet other people also doing the NF that way without having to go out of game. Granted, it's gonna be hit or miss and your best odds are probably on Tuesdays after reset, but still. Could work out... I'd really love if they built some sort of LFG into the game. I think they should use the so called "social" spaces for it actually, considering the only social activities really happening there now are horsing around with balls and dance parties. It would be nice to have actual socializing there. Right. Why not a big fucking neon sign in the Tower, over in the corner, that says..."I WANT TO DO NIGHTFALLS'. You go stand there, people could then see the other person, exchange some emails. At least save a step. Why not that, if matchmaking won't help out.
|
|
wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
|
Post by wittyscorpion on May 7, 2015 14:13:45 GMT -5
I don't even know how to do the LFG thing. There are several LFG web sites, some even have mobile apps, to make things reasonably easy. Basically, you 1) either browse through the messages people already put up, find decent ones, and then probe them to get an invite; 2) or you put up your own message to let others contact you; I haven't done LFG for quite a while, but I read somewhere that some of the popular ones can now even do automatic matching. In essence, you can imagine LFG websites are like "speed dating" service Frankly speaking, I think that these are much better facilities than an in-game gathering area where you just randomly fire up invites (which I am sure all of them have been getting and ignoring when we are at the tower), because a) they let you specify or filter by conditions (console platforms, activities, level of the activities, number of players needed, etc), b) they provide chat windows for you to have conversation with the other players. If I were developers at Bungie looking at the the amount of features these web sites / mobile apps already support, I would think that adding similar features into the game directly is not going to be more useful. Just my 2 cents though.
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on May 7, 2015 14:39:00 GMT -5
Meetup areas alone don't work well in Destiny. It's been tried. Truth is there aren't enough people in each instance, and it's not fast and convenient to communicate with them even when you do get together with people there.
I think Bungie could integrate a form of LFG into the social areas that would work, however. Maybe just go register with an NPC that makes it easy to LFG, LFM, and send invites. Maybe give us an elevator to an instanced lounge strictly for LFG. I'm sure there's several ways to make it work. For that matter it wouldn't have to involve the tower, necessarily. I'd just like that to give the "social" spaces some actual social features.
You could implement it with something like an LFG class item. Pop it on and it puts LFG next to your nameplate along with a brief indicator of what activity you're looking for which you pick like piking a perk on a weapon. Back at the tower there's a board with a list of everybody who's LFG which can be sorted and filtered and streamlines sending invites and messages. Or just poke it in the options screen so it doesn't even affect what you're wearing. Or the NPC thing. Or maybe you activate it from the navigation screen by going to an activity and instead of pressing the button to select it you press a button to LFG for it. Hell maybe you LFG for an activity then go to a social space and the game matches you into an instance with other LFGers. That would require very few changes to the core game.
|
|
wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
|
Post by wittyscorpion on May 7, 2015 14:43:20 GMT -5
Meetup areas alone don't work well in Destiny. It's been tried. Truth is there aren't enough people in each instance, and it's not fast and convenient to communicate with them even when you do get together with people there. I think Bungie could integrate a form of LFG into the social areas that would work, however. Maybe just go register with an NPC that makes it easy to LFG, LFM, and send invites. Maybe give us an elevator to an instanced lounge strictly for LFG. I'm sure there's several ways to make it work. For that matter it wouldn't have to involve the tower, necessarily. I'd just like that to give the "social" spaces some actual social features. You could implement it with something like an LFG class item. Pop it on and it puts LFG next to your nameplate along with a brief indicator of what activity you're looking for which you pick like piking a perk on a weapon. Back at the tower there's a board with a list of everybody who's LFG which can be sorted and filtered and streamlines sending invites and messages. Or just poke it in the options screen so it doesn't even affect what you're wearing. Or the NPC thing. Or maybe you activate it from the navigation screen by going to an activity and instead of pressing the button to select it you press a button to LFG for it. Hell maybe you LFG for an activity then go to a social space and the game matches you into an instance with other LFGers. That would require very few changes to the core game. I agree adding such things into game is nice-to-have, but with my rather positive experiences of using LFG websites, it's hard for me to imagine things Bungie can do that these websites/apps are not already supporting (or can support easily in the future). The two most useful things provided: a) conditions required to join the LFG, b) the ability to have a conversation through text chat, are not easy to do on console. If there is a PC version of Destiny, I can then see great possibilities of powerful in-game support. (Edit) More thoughts on this topic: As a software engineer, I can see one great way for Bungie to incorporate LFG in-game is to open up the platform for LFG channels to integrate directly with the game. It might be a great way to incorporate LFG into the game without having to have a dedicated eng team writing features that is already implemented by LFG.
|
|
markopolo
True Bro
Once a LMG Camper, Then a Voidlock, Now a Lexington 25-8-366 Runner
Posts: 5,567
|
Post by markopolo on May 7, 2015 15:18:55 GMT -5
wittyscorpionI prefer what many people on Reddit suggest, that opt in/out MM for all grouping (daily, weekly, NF, raids, etc etc) is the way to go. So opt in, do your nightfall. Or opt out, and solo it
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on May 7, 2015 15:20:41 GMT -5
The thing is no matter how good the LFG sites are they have one major flaw... they aren't in the game. There is also a really great grimoire that only a tiny portion of the population has seen. More people have used the app, but even that... still isn't in the game.
The simple truth is that unless a feature is integrated into the game it-self it will always be lacking and a lot of people will never use it whether they'd like to or not. Me personally... I don't want to use the LFG sites. Maybe that 100 thing, because I could get to know a small community that way. But I do not want to jump into even a single pickup group of strangers who will make fun of me for not having a GHorn... Not even one. That experience would just about ruin Destiny for me at least for the night if not a week or a month or so. Yeah I know that sounds extreme, but I've got social issues. That's what I like about real MMO's. You can wander around and be nearly invisible and choose your level of participation. With Destiny you're either dancing and waiving or going whole hog. I have used some LFG features before, but only when they were integrated into the game. I might go for it even with the LFG sites someday, but for now I really don't want to... ;3
|
|
wittyscorpion
True Brorange
All warfare is based on deception.
Posts: 8,598
|
Post by wittyscorpion on May 7, 2015 19:26:35 GMT -5
The thing is no matter how good the LFG sites are they have one major flaw... they aren't in the game. There is also a really great grimoire that only a tiny portion of the population has seen. More people have used the app, but even that... still isn't in the game. The simple truth is that unless a feature is integrated into the game it-self it will always be lacking and a lot of people will never use it whether they'd like to or not. Me personally... I don't want to use the LFG sites. Maybe that 100 thing, because I could get to know a small community that way. But I do not want to jump into even a single pickup group of strangers who will make fun of me for not having a GHorn... Not even one. That experience would just about ruin Destiny for me at least for the night if not a week or a month or so. Yeah I know that sounds extreme, but I've got social issues. That's what I like about real MMO's. You can wander around and be nearly invisible and choose your level of participation. With Destiny you're either dancing and waiving or going whole hog. I have used some LFG features before, but only when they were integrated into the game. I might go for it even with the LFG sites someday, but for now I really don't want to... ;3 Whether to use LFG is your personal choice, I am not saying you need to. What I am saying is that I don't see how a non-MM in-game support can be any better than what LFG sites can offer today. I think in essence you are arguing for "adding MM support" for all activities. My opinion on that are: Strikes (regardless the challenge level) should support MM, PoE probably should too, ToO probably should not, Raids definitely not.
|
|
qupie
True Bro
Posts: 12,400
|
Post by qupie on May 8, 2015 3:32:34 GMT -5
Matchmaking for everything is a bad idea. Period. Nightfalls, okay. Prison of elders? I have no idea yet, but might be doable at everything except lvl 35
VoG? Hell no. Ever thought about doing atheon with scrubs without a mic or oracle weapons? Or confluxes with AFKers? How about oracles? This shit needs teamwork.
Crota? with randoms? The lamps without communication? Or three ppl who run towards the sword to pick it up? Sure it could be done by now, now everybody has done it several times. But we are talking about those players who never played it. Doing it with randoms will be really really hard OR you will simply get carried which will never give you a real raid experience anyway. Bad + bad = bad.
This is what will happen: You get a random fireteam of 2 CE noobs, and 4 veterans. The veterans are in a party, one noob has a mic but nobody is talking to him, and the other noob just wants loot and AFK's half of the time.
- At the lamp section, the veterans start their run imediately, and they know how long to wait at each lamp. The noobs will try to keep up, but without some communication will fall behind quickly. The guy who wanted the loot doesn't mind, but the other guy will never have a good experience here. - At the bridge section, there will be no communication wheather to cheese or legit. Legit will be a pain without communication anyway. Cheesing as well, because there will always be this one guy who doesn't understand everybody is wiping. - The hallway is easy, but forget about getting that chest, because ppl will start before the rest, and a deliberate wipe is not easy to coordinate with randoms. - Deathsinger will be doable I guess - Crota himself will be a chalice swapping, sword hunting oversoul f*ckfest.
Sorry but this is nothing to hope for.
LFG is easy as shit, I never did it before TDB because I was weary as well, but it is really really easy. You don't need that Gjallarhorn to be invited. Sure there are ppl demanding that kind of stuff. But I never reply at it, because generally speaking, you don't want to be in their fireteam anyway.
LFG in game might have been good from the start. But LFG mechanics are in place at several very solid working websites. It would be a shame if bungie wastes resources on it at this point in time.
In game LFG might be usefull. But I feel like it would be a waste of bungies time. I prefer they invest those resources in more gameplay.
Those raid completion numbers are low indeed, but to be honest, I don't think adding matchmaking will change them that much. Those numbers won't get to 100% with matchmaking/in game LFG. I think an increase of 5% maximum.
TLDR: Raid with randoms will be awe full if you are a raid virgin. And that is the group of ppl everyone keeps talking about "NEEDS" the matchmaking. They don't, they are probably not playing anyway, don't play raids for other reasons. And even if they would like to do it, it will be a completely different experience anyway.
|
|
wings
True Bro
Posts: 3,776
|
Post by wings on May 8, 2015 5:44:38 GMT -5
Actually VoG has been done with a full team without mics. A guy on Reddit sherpa'd a group of deaf players through it but everything was prepared for by text before the session. My issue with matchmaking is that you are not guaranteed to be matched up with people who speak the same language if you are in Europe.
|
|
mannon
True Bro
wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
Posts: 15,371
|
Post by mannon on May 8, 2015 7:36:25 GMT -5
I'm not arguing for MM on all activities, although I don't necessarily see the problem in making MM optional for all activities.
The thing is, no matter how good the LFG sites are the fact that they are external means they represent a major oversight in the game. The fact that they are external is it-self an issue. Now it's nice that there are some useful external tools. But I strongly feel that some form of LFG tool as well as the grimoire SHOULD be integrated into the game.
Not putting those things in the game just means that less than half the population will ever use them, because that's just how it is. Most people who have played Destiny won't go to some external website. Hell I bet most won't even go to Bungie.net. The vast majority of players will fire up a game and play it, but never use any of the external stuff except maybe the mobile app. And I bet even that doesn't have really great penetration.
If it were built into the game and I could casually use or not use the LFG functions I'd probably consider it. Since I have to literally stop playing to go deal with that... and then still have to deal with the people I get matched with... naw... I'll just play. Eventually I'll get to run the raids again. I'm not somebody who feels I need to run them every week. In fact as of right now I have a full set of 36 light gear from Iron Banner anyway. The main thing the raids could offer me is weapons... and materials from VoG.
Now I'm not saying the LFG sites are bad or that Destiny should try doing everything they do. Certainly you have limitations on consoles. But I think some very simple things really would be easy. Hell you don't even need a searchable list necessarily. (Though it'd be nice.)
I think the simplest way to activate LFG would be from the Navigation screen where you select an activity. The options screen would probably offer more features, but less integration. Then if you want to keep it simple from there all you do is have it add some tags to the nameplate and try to matchmake people who are LFG together. That's it. From there just let people work out the invites on their own, no fuss no muss. It wouldn't replace the LFG sites, and that's fine. But Destiny has almost no social features for what is actually a very social game.
|
|