wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 1, 2015 11:31:12 GMT -5
While we are discussing IB, I am interested in seeing everybody's "try-hard" loadout for both IB and Trials (assuming they are slightly different), especially the bros who have played a lot. I am especially interested in the following components: 1) subclass setup; 2) exotic armor to go with the subclass setup; 3) ideal Int/Dis/Str composition to go with that load out; 4) any addtional important perks to have from non exotic armor pieces (e.g. faster melee) right now, I am running my Warlock to level 3. Two class setups. Note - These aren't truly set up for what I think is best, there's also a bit of me wanting to use some of this new equipment 1. Warlock Sunsinger - RedDeath or TLW, PartyCrasher, Joldershammer .....Fusion Grenades x 2, Self-Revive......Exotic = Claws of Akamhara 2. Warlock VoidWalker - RedDeath or TLW, PartyCrasher, Joldershammer......AxionBolt grenades, Nova-further/faster ....Exotic = VoidFang Vestaments I have no clue if the Claws are good. I wanted to see if having two melee attacks would help, as I mostly run with a shotgun. I typically go back and forth with the RD and TLW. On longer maps, I tend to use Red Death. For some reason, I just don't seem to be able to work the Thorn to the same level of success that other people have with it. I must suck at headshots. Disclaimer first: don't consider what I say as recommendations because I have almost 0 experience outside of IB and I am not very good at IB. That said, personal taste wise I am a big fan of the The Claws. Having both double melee and double grenade gives me a lot of confidence to get into CQC battles, in which I otherwise suck fairly badly. I like to put high Dis/Str so I can use melee and grenade a lot. Int is ignored and that's no big deal for me personally, as I am not very good at getting multikills from Radiance anyway.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jul 1, 2015 11:32:19 GMT -5
I don't entirely agree with that assessment of fusion vs firebold. Fusion grenades are also quite powerful in PvP. You have to aim them, but if you get a stick you can basically forget about the target unless they have some form of overshield. Or Ram users surviving a Flux grenade. Actually that was the last grenade I used in Trials and it felt so satisfying taking them out with it when they spammed Firebolt. Like, seriously, kills with stickies should give you extra Super bonus from the kill or something. I think the problem with stickies is that the permanent radar might give your opponents too much of a heads-up unless you are very quick and accurate. The last time I used the fusion grenade though I got two kills, one got stuck and the other was finished off with AoE due to crossfire from my teammates.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jul 1, 2015 11:49:32 GMT -5
Yeah in my experience bubbles can cut both ways. If you're running sunsinger or don't have your super they can be a hassle to a smart team. If you're running voidbro and they like to gather under it to cap CP's then they are delicious. Hell sometimes I've even been known to be brave, (stupid) enough to just jump in with shotgun and fusion grenades. Of course the key there is not to go in strait at the titan or even on the ground. Get up in the air and force them to have two dimensions to miss in, and try not to give away exactly where you're entering the bubble. That also means either ambushing while they are turned away or otherwise juking enough to make it very unlikely they will have been able to track you're movements. (Blink would be better, but if sunbro... oh well.) I find most people get a bit disoriented and have a hard time aiming at you if you get high over them then drop into the bubble from above at a point of your choosing, maybe even behind them. As you do make sure you're aiming at them or where they will be. Expect to be blinded. Fire the shotgun, toss a fusion grenade, maybe melee once if you're brave, and GTFO whether you think he's dead or not.
60% of the time it works every time... and by that I mean it has worked for me, but actually it's probably a stupid thing to do. ;3 If you have radiance with skin going then it's a little less stupid.
As for loadouts hmm...
Red Death Shotgun or Sniper (map dependent but usually shotgun) Best PvP MG Voidfant Vestments Fusion Grenades Radiant Skin Gift (2 'nades)
I try lots of things but variations on the above are probably my most used and most aggressive loadouts. This is a loadout I use to rush especially at the start of the match. Stopping to cap the near CP is wasting valuable time where I have a grenade advantage on most players so I rush to B instead, though not necessarily to cap B, but to defend it. I actually get fewer caps with this just because I spend more of my time rushing to get to enemies to kill or simply defending CP's from positions that don't necessarily have me capping them. Often I'll be fending off the enemies and keeping them pinned down or dead while my team caps, but I'm generally okay with that. If your team has 2 CP's this is a great zerg loadout. Just rush and kill. With fusions can usually almost guarantee +1 KD and causing the enemies lots of grief. Super used as much as possible and very aggressively, generally on the offense against multiple enemies. I generally try to build for discipline, but if you're zerging you can pretty much ignore it and if you go on a long streak you probably don't need it anyway. I'm never really sure what stats to build for... generally recovery I think.
I also have had much success with similar builds with starfire and the hover ability instead of gift. For starfire I still play aggressively, but don't zerg. Better to go for longer streaks. And you need your discipline a lot more.
Other than that I haven't really had any loadouts that weren't much more than mere experiments. Claws seem to be really hit or miss for me. I find that melee is inconsistent given that shotguns and titan melees 1HK me.
I've also experimented with actually running a support build with Heart of Praxic and Song. I would pop my super on B while we were defending and toss solar grenades at the doorways while charging everybody up. No idea if it was remotely effective since nobody was on voice, but we usually held the point while I had my super up.
I'm looking forward to running the Ram this weekend once I get its perks unlocked!
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jul 1, 2015 11:54:37 GMT -5
I tend to rarely play voidbro. I've just been more of a sunsinger and voidfang was my first exotic so that combo was pretty much native to me... and I abuse the hell out it. Honestly I think voidfang might be even stronger for sunsinger than voidwalker due to the extra grenade.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 1, 2015 12:10:48 GMT -5
That said, personal taste wise I am a big fan of the The Claws. Having both double melee and double grenade gives me a lot of confidence to get into CQC battles, in which I otherwise suck fairly badly. I like to put high Dis/Str so I can use melee and grenade a lot. Int is ignored and that's no big deal for me personally, as I am not very good at getting multikills from Radiance anyway. I also like the claws, they can't really compete with voidfang or ram imho, but they are nice nontheless. One thing to remember though is that your second melee/grenade is not influenced by str/disp. So with double melee/grenade I would surely focus on int and a little bit of the other two. (that is why voidfang + 2 grenades is so nice). In the end, I have gone to the dark side anyway, burn viking, burn (this also makes me less dependent on voidfang for trials, we often let the hunter go for lucky raspberry).
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 1, 2015 12:26:16 GMT -5
Well look at that! I go to lunch and in the meantime qupie posts almost exactly what I was going to post. A couple additions: - Sunsinger: Perfect already. Swap to radiant skin instead of fireborn for general crucible use IMHO, and use those firebolts offensively to clear control points while you tank all kinds of damage. - Striker: Flashbangs can work well too if you're used to them. - Bladedancer: Backstab for sure. A lot of times it'll proc even though you stabbed someone in the side or even in the face. Guaranteed kill if that happens. Spec for max armor and agility. - If you're running any combo other than Thorn + shotgun or TLW + sniper, be aware that you're putting yourself behind the 8-ball. Prox rockets always unless you're doing an MG bounty in IB or playing against scrubs in normal crucible. - Armor breakdown is solid already. Shoot for faster melee, extra grenade throw distance, more super from 'nade kills, and faster reload for your chosen weapon type if possible. Don't disregard the stuff the tower vendors are selling as you should be able to put together some nice setups between what they all have to offer. Heavy ammo boots or make sure your exotic grants more heavy ammo. Max intellect and discipline is preferable, but some strength is ok, moreso for sunsingers for the 1HKO radiance melees. For general use, Armamentarium for Titan, Lucky Raspberry for Hunter, and Ram for Warlock. Voidfang if you don't have the Ram. RE: Firebolts with extra burn vs Fusions x 2. My biggest issue with Fusions is that they require both you and your enemy to be exposed to be effective, and you have to stick them or you're probably dead. Even if you do stick them, it's probably 50/50 if you live or not as they're probably going to get at least a shot or two off. That limits their utility quite a bit, really. Firebolts don't have that issue. If you know someone is behind a corner, chuck a 'nade and you have a massive advantage on them. If you know someone is chasing you around a corner as you're taking cover, chuck a 'nade when they get close to said corner and you now either have a massive advantage on them or at the very least you've evened the odds. And if you're both exposed, you can still kill trade just like with the fusions as long as you get a single hit in with your primary.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 1, 2015 12:27:56 GMT -5
right now, I am running my Warlock to level 3. Two class setups. Note - These aren't truly set up for what I think is best, there's also a bit of me wanting to use some of this new equipment 1. Warlock Sunsinger - RedDeath or TLW, PartyCrasher, Joldershammer .....Fusion Grenades x 2, Self-Revive......Exotic = Claws of Akamhara 2. Warlock VoidWalker - RedDeath or TLW, PartyCrasher, Joldershammer......AxionBolt grenades, Nova-further/faster ....Exotic = VoidFang Vestaments I have no clue if the Claws are good. I wanted to see if having two melee attacks would help, as I mostly run with a shotgun. I typically go back and forth with the RD and TLW. On longer maps, I tend to use Red Death. For some reason, I just don't seem to be able to work the Thorn to the same level of success that other people have with it. I must suck at headshots. Disclaimer first: don't consider what I say as recommendations because I have almost 0 experience outside of IB and I am not very good at IB. That said, personal taste wise I am a big fan of the The Claws. Having both double melee and double grenade gives me a lot of confidence to get into CQC battles, in which I otherwise suck fairly badly. I like to put high Dis/Str so I can use melee and grenade a lot. Int is ignored and that's no big deal for me personally, as I am not very good at getting multikills from Radiance anyway. I agree with that. Radiance sucks because it's not very offensive in nature. So when I run it,.... it's more of a defensive option, to give me an opportunity to re-cap an area after I have been killed. Surprise the opponents. You can really pester opponents this way. Cap a flag, they might kill me, try to recap...I respawn and spam grenades and punch (double melee plus shotgun). Pester away. So at least for me, I'm not using Intellect (and the super) immediately. I don't need high intellect. I wait at times, so it doesn't matter to me. I prefer to run Discipline at 100%, as then I can spam those double grenades constantly. The more I think about it, I don't necessarily need a super when running Sunsinger, especially so when going after groups on a flag. Like a nova bomb, titan fist thing, or golden gun. Why? I have TWO fusion grenades. If I can get close to toss a Nova or titan stomp ...then the double fusion will work just the same. There's my 'super'. I really only see three worthwhile Warlock exotic pieces: The Ram, Claws, and Voidfang and maybe two situational pieces: Sunbreakers and Starfire Protocol
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 1, 2015 12:46:58 GMT -5
Short version? When have you seen, performed, or been victim to the most multikills in crucible? I'm guessing it's from a bubble getting smashed by a super and killing the 3 or 4 guys standing in it. They're super magnets. If you don't have a super, you hang back or do something else while the bubble Titan (and hopefully one or two of his friends) inevitably stands in his bubble doing nothing for 30 or 45 seconds, taking himself out of the game. Better yet, get a sniper to watch that bubble and pop headshots on anyone dumb enough to walk out of it thinking they're safe due to the overshield. I can't tell you how many free kills I've gotten sniping at a bubble on B from over by C on Shores of Time in the last two weeks. I see your point, but I do disagree a little. I play IB mostly all solo. What you describe, doesn't really ever happen. Here's the deal....If I have two or three people near me....there is no need to put up a bubble. It's not going up, giving the opponent the opportunity you described (killing 3-4 people inside of it). That hardly ever happens. Why? I save it. That's the thing, it only goes up for when I am solo capping a flag (which unfortunately happens a lot) IMHO, the bubble is a great tool to use when you got a team down 2 flags to 1...and you are going for that key triple cap, at least on the non-spawn flipping maps. One good triple cap in a control game, typically wins the game outright. You are solo, going for that triple cap, it offers you protection. And if an opponent is dumb enough to waste a super on just me, one person, win/win for me. He's wasting it. Playing solo? Good lord, I can't even remember the last time I've seen three other teammates capping a flag with me (other than the beginning) I don't think that even happened one time last night. here's another thing. What you never see are the opponents who move away when the bubble comes up. Those who don't have a super up, and just don't bother. A lot of opponents will act this way. They move to something else. And as a solo player....I don't view it as standing around wasting time for 45 seconds. I view it as me, one person, singlehandedly taking one flag out of play for 45 seconds. Especially on the triple. I guess I'd just say that if you're getting triple caps that easily, and nobody on the other team had a super and/or they let you stand there unopposed for 45 seconds on a key flag, and they weren't able to cap something else in the meantime, you were going to win regardless of what class you used because your opponents were terrible. How'd that game turn out? 20K to 6K or thereabouts? Most of the time against a decent team, trying for a triple cap isn't that great of a move. You flip spawns to who knows where and that can work against you even more than the triple cap would help you. Otherwise, Lightning grenades (and flashbangs too, arguably) are better than anything defenders have. Shoulder charge is better than anything defenders have. Fist of Havoc beats every other super except Nova Bomb depending on timing and Golden Gun depending on range. I'm not saying the bubble can't be useful, but the Striker class as a whole is generally much more useful than a Defender.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 1, 2015 12:47:07 GMT -5
Well look at that! I go to lunch and in the meantime qupie posts almost exactly what I was going to post. A couple additions: - Sunsinger: Perfect already. Swap to radiant skin instead of fireborn for general crucible use IMHO, So you think it's better to have an extra ?% armor after activating your super...rather than being able to revive after dying? I don't know how to view this. I almost always get a kill AFTER self reviving. Sometimes two. I would say I average 1.20 kills per 'super use'...if just for the element of surprise catching people off guard. Radiant skin? I pop my super when engaging enemies, I have no surprise....but I have ?% more armor. I guess you feel this works out to more kills per super use?
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 1, 2015 12:59:33 GMT -5
I guess I'd just say that if you're getting triple caps that easily, and nobody on the other team had a super and/or they let you stand there unopposed for 45 seconds on a key flag, and they weren't able to cap something else in the meantime, you were going to win regardless of what class you used because your opponents were terrible. How'd that game turn out? 20K to 6K or thereabouts? Most of the time against a decent team, trying for a triple cap isn't that great of a move. You flip spawns to who knows where and that can work against you even more than the triple cap would help you. Otherwise, Lightning grenades (and flashbangs too, arguably) are better than anything defenders have. Shoulder charge is better than anything defenders have. Fist of Havoc beats every other super except Nova Bomb depending on timing and Golden Gun depending on range. I'm not saying the bubble can't be useful, but the Striker class as a whole is generally much more useful than a Defender. I personally don't really know what is best, so my thoughts are kind of all over the place here. But with what you said, I kind of disagree with some of your assumptions when playing solo. - Most games tend to be close. Couple thousand each way. You don't get that many 20,000 to > 10,000 games. At least when playing solo. - You don't need to stay on the flag for 45 seconds. Cap it and go run their spawn looking for kills. The bubble will stay there (as long as you don't die). Meanwhile.... - If other opponents don't have a super up to take it out...they won't bother with it. They go away. Very few players rush into a bubble anymore. You have now shortened the playing field and forcing them at a huge disanvantage. No one will waste a super on an empty bubble. And no one will attack it. As long as I am alive, that flag is out of commission another 20 to 30 seconds. - Regarding getting triple caps. I don't think it's as simple as you make it. "If you can get a triple, then game was a blowout anyways" I don't agree with this premise/assumption at all. Take last night. Two of the games I lost, were games my side was winning most of the way, only to lose late on an opposing triple cap. They weren't blowouts. A 17,600 to 16,100 lead...suddenly became 18,500 to 20,000 in a short span. I see this a fair amount of games. In fact, I won two games very late this way last night. Not with bubbles, but we got a triple cap late to win. There's four games alone in just one session. Iron banner isn't PoE. If it's a non-party/group lobby, 12 randoms playing, ...most of the randoms aren't thinking 'win' first.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 1, 2015 13:07:13 GMT -5
Well look at that! I go to lunch and in the meantime qupie posts almost exactly what I was going to post. A couple additions: - Sunsinger: Perfect already. Swap to radiant skin instead of fireborn for general crucible use IMHO, So you think it's better to have an extra ?% armor after activating your super...rather than being able to revive after dying? In general crucible, absolutely. That extra armor means you can probably clear a few guys off a point without dying in the first place. Smart players know to keep an eye on warlocks they've killed because self-res is so commonplace now and will be waiting with a shotgun/melee combo or sniper headshot to put you right back down again.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 1, 2015 13:19:45 GMT -5
lol...'smart players' is the operative word. I can only recall maybe one person last night actually sitting on my dead warlock body. imho, 9 out of 10 start moving away if you wait the extra 2 to 3 seconds. Just my opinion.
I guess what I don't fully understand is the extent of the Radiant Skin. It's my understanding it's not going to help that much. If the opponent hits me with a shotgun blast, I'm dead regardless of whether I have that equipped or not. Do you have actually numbers for this?
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 1, 2015 13:21:04 GMT -5
ok..looked it up. Imagine that.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 1, 2015 13:21:57 GMT -5
I guess I'd just say that if you're getting triple caps that easily, and nobody on the other team had a super and/or they let you stand there unopposed for 45 seconds on a key flag, and they weren't able to cap something else in the meantime, you were going to win regardless of what class you used because your opponents were terrible. How'd that game turn out? 20K to 6K or thereabouts? Most of the time against a decent team, trying for a triple cap isn't that great of a move. You flip spawns to who knows where and that can work against you even more than the triple cap would help you. Otherwise, Lightning grenades (and flashbangs too, arguably) are better than anything defenders have. Shoulder charge is better than anything defenders have. Fist of Havoc beats every other super except Nova Bomb depending on timing and Golden Gun depending on range. I'm not saying the bubble can't be useful, but the Striker class as a whole is generally much more useful than a Defender. I personally don't really know what is best, so my thoughts are kind of all over the place here. But with what you said, I kind of disagree with some of your assumptions when playing solo. - Most games tend to be close. Couple thousand each way. You don't get that many 20,000 to > 10,000 games. At least when playing solo. - You don't need to stay on the flag for 45 seconds. Cap it and go run their spawn looking for kills. The bubble will stay there (as long as you don't die). Meanwhile.... - If other opponents don't have a super up to take it out...they won't bother with it. They go away. Very few players rush into a bubble anymore. You have now shortened the playing field and forcing them at a huge disanvantage. No one will waste a super on an empty bubble. And no one will attack it. As long as I am alive, that flag is out of commission another 20 to 30 seconds. - Regarding getting triple caps. I don't think it's as simple as you make it. "If you can get a triple, then game was a blowout anyways" I don't agree with this premise/assumption at all. Take last night. Two of the games I lost, were games my side was winning most of the way, only to lose late on an opposing triple cap. They weren't blowouts. A 17,600 to 16,100 lead...suddenly became 18,500 to 20,000 in a short span. I see this a fair amount of games. In fact, I won two games very late this way last night. Not with bubbles, but we got a triple cap late to win. There's four games alone in just one session. Iron banner isn't PoE. If it's a non-party/group lobby, 12 randoms playing, ...most of the randoms aren't thinking 'win' first. In my experience, if my team gets triple capped it's because my team got rolled hard, or vice versa. Your experience obviously has been different, so I don't know there. I very rarely play solo (I'm usually with THebb) so that probably makes a difference. I'd still argue that if you have two points held, especially if one is the dominant point on the map, going for a triple isn't the best idea. You're already set up to win, just hang back and let them rush in and die while you rack up easy kills. People are way too obsessed with capping points in Control when most of the time it's not necessary. People throwing themselves at B and ending up with a .5 K/D and 3 caps don't understand that all they did was feed the other team supers all game. Anyway...that's off topic LOL. Again, if all 6 of your opponents didn't have a super, and they couldn't coordinate to to take you out with a numbers advantage, especially if you were running around outside your bubble, then they were bad or unorganized players. I don't set my classes up on the premise that I'll be facing bad or unorganized opponents, I set them up assuming I'll be up against decent players with at least a couple people partied together and communicating. Expect the worst, hope for the best, I guess.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 1, 2015 13:37:21 GMT -5
lol...'smart players' is the operative word. I can only recall maybe one person last night actually sitting on my dead warlock body. imho, 9 out of 10 start moving away if you wait the extra 2 to 3 seconds. Just my opinion. I guess what I don't fully understand is the extent of the Radiant Skin. It's my understanding it's not going to help that much. If the opponent hits me with a shotgun blast, I'm dead regardless of whether I have that equipped or not. Do you have actually numbers for this? I see you looked it up, but for PvP the way radiance actually works is it cuts all incoming damage down by half. Another way to think about it is you get double the HP you normally would. So you go from 200ish health to 400 during radiance. With radiant skin, that jumps up to 450 health. With radiant skin and the Ram, it's 500 health, meaning it takes 2.5 times the normal amount of damage to kill you. If you manage to get an overshield from meleeing somebody, you now have 650 health and are nigh unkillable. Here's a good breakdown: www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/373yto/why_you_need_to_use_the_ram_in_pvp/Really fireborn isn't bad either, but if I'm given the choice of clearing 3 guys off a point by rushing in, dying, then self-rezzing to finish off whatever's left vs spamming grenades from a safer distance with extra health, I'd rather take the safer option. Kind of just depends on your playstyle though. Personally I don't like the idea of needing to die to use my super, but at the same time you don't necessarily have to die first to use it anyway, that's just the most common use I see. People die and think they have a get out of jail free card, and then they get put right back down when if they'd supered to start with I would've been screwed.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 1, 2015 13:42:23 GMT -5
Keep in mind this heb, 'matchmaking'. I think you and I would both agree...we tend to get stiffer competition when grouped up. At least that's been my experience (or the lag gets worse, which is probably true too...as well as sharing kills). Most all of my best Destiny PvP games have been playing solo. That I am 100% sure of saying. Any big kill game, with kills in the 30's or higher...all playing solo.
So I do think playing solo, it's a bit different. No one is coordinated when I am playing solo. It's six people all mostly playing for bounties. Yes, most random vs random games.....they are unorganized. Which is why I am sometimes seeing these things work.
And that's what I am assuming I will play. If that's what I see in most solo games, why not play for it? This isn't real comp or MLG. It's IB. Get your bounties done asap, and move on. Here's the deal... if I am solo, and assume I am against good players, partied up....and I get that....what difference does it make anyways? I lose. I'm not going to win anyways playing solo with 5 randoms who don't cap. Two fo the games I lost last night, four of my five teammates had 1 or fewer caps. What difference does it make? None when solo. Destiny sucks in that way. Playing partied up gives to much of an advantage versus randoms. Much worse than CoD EVER was.
on many maps, I agree 100%....never ever ever triple cap. But on some maps, it's there for the taking. And one 30 sec to 1 min triple, will typically win a game outright.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 1, 2015 14:34:24 GMT -5
The question originally asked was what's the best setup for PvP for each class, which qupie and I both answered almost the same way with setups that'd be considered "optimal" by most serious PvP for "tryhard" PvP play. If something else is working for you though against randoms or for your playstyle, by all means use it.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 1, 2015 14:34:59 GMT -5
LOL. Try-hard corrects to smart player. That's pretty good.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 1, 2015 14:40:46 GMT -5
Personally I don't like the idea of needing to die to use my super, but at the same time you don't necessarily have to die first to use it anyway, that's just the most common use I see. People die and think they have a get out of jail free card, and then they get put right back down when if they'd supered to start with I would've been screwed. This is an interesting point. "if they'd supered to start with " The problem here? (which I can't come up with a good logic to) You don't always know the answer to the above 'if'. "If I would have supered".... well, the 'if' is the million dollar variable. Pulling a Warlock Radiance super isn't going to allow you to throw a Nova bomb or shoot a golden gun to actively kill anyone. It's passive. All it's doing is giving your some bonus armor. If you go into a situation you think you will need it....and your shot is true, your grenades hit, you won't even use the Radiant skin abilities. It's wasted. Again, if you have two grenades, the super isn't going to suddenly give you more. You still have two grenades. Your shot? No benefit there. The radiant skin only come into play if you fvck up and something goes wrong. You miss your shot. You run into more trouble. You screw up. So you are never truly sure you will ever really need it. That's the thing with the 'get out of jail free' card with the revive. Every time you do use it, it's because you did need to use it. You died. Is that logic nonsensical?
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 1, 2015 14:41:36 GMT -5
The question originally asked was what's the best setup for PvP for each class, which qupie and I both answered almost the same way with setups that'd be considered "optimal" by most serious PvP for "smart player" PvP play. If something else is working for you though against randoms or for your playstyle, by all means use it. I know. I'm just making conversation. It's one thing to read someone say "This is best". For me, it's always much more interesting to read WHY they think it's best.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 1, 2015 14:48:51 GMT -5
The question originally asked was what's the best setup for PvP for each class, which qupie and I both answered almost the same way with setups that'd be considered "optimal" by most serious PvP for "smart player" PvP play. If something else is working for you though against randoms or for your playstyle, by all means use it. an example of what I mean Qpie's suggestions (and details) were all for the ToO, not IB. Not sure why he was talking about that in an IB thread. Then he said, " The only thing that changes in IB is that Voidwalkers become better than sunsinger imho. Defenders are not bad, but also not good. Also keeper of the pack is not needed (obviously). Grenade spawn exotics and the ram are the best choices I think." So my immediate followup is why? VW seems better form the vantage point of having an offensive super that can kill. That's good. But is having this super two to three times in a ten minute game better than having an extra grenade the entire game period? I don't know, so I'm curious as to the 'why'
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 1, 2015 15:02:19 GMT -5
Personally I don't like the idea of needing to die to use my super, but at the same time you don't necessarily have to die first to use it anyway, that's just the most common use I see. People die and think they have a get out of jail free card, and then they get put right back down when if they'd supered to start with I would've been screwed. This is an interesting point. "if they'd supered to start with " The problem here? (which I can't come up with a good logic to) You don't always know the answer to the above 'if'. "If I would have supered".... well, the 'if' is the million dollar variable. Pulling a Warlock Radiance super isn't going to allow you to throw a Nova bomb or shoot a golden gun to actively kill anyone. It's passive. All it's doing is giving your some bonus armor. If you go into a situation you think you will need it....and your shot is true, your grenades hit, you won't even use the Radiant skin abilities. It's wasted. Again, if you have two grenades, the super isn't going to suddenly give you more. You still have two grenades. Your shot? No benefit there. The radiant skin only come into play if you fvck up and something goes wrong. You miss your shot. You run into more trouble. You screw up. So you are never truly sure you will ever really need it. That's the thing with the 'get out of jail free' card with the revive. Every time you do use it, it's because you did need to use it. You died. Is that logic nonsensical? I'd say it does allow you to actively kill if you use all your grenades. Remember you get a huge boost to your recharge rates under radiance. So you're not talking about two grenades, it's more like 6 or 7 with max discipline, 4 or 5 with no/low discipline. Just think about B flag on Shores of Time, for example, with 3 enemies there trying to cap. You can jump in with fireborn on, shotgun one, maybe damage another, die, self-rez, and hopefully clean up whatever's left without getting shotgunned back down yourself. Or, you can pop radiance, poke around the corner to chuck a 'nade, take a couple hits, duck back in cover, chuck another 'nade, and so on until everyone is dead or has moved off the flag. If someone charges you, just 1HKO melee them. Radiant skin gives you a little more leeway in that situation in case things don't go to plan as you can tank some extra damage. Maybe you get rushed and they get a good shotgun blast off before you melee. Radiant skin probably lets you survive that. I wouldn't say your logic is nonsensical. Either way can work fine, but one way almost guarantees death and the other doesn't. One way is riskier and the other is more safe. In a game where your deaths mean points for the other team, minimizing your chance of death is fairly important. That's something a lot of people seem to miss, that not dying is just as important as getting kills.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 1, 2015 15:11:17 GMT -5
The question originally asked was what's the best setup for PvP for each class, which qupie and I both answered almost the same way with setups that'd be considered "optimal" by most serious PvP for "smart player" PvP play. If something else is working for you though against randoms or for your playstyle, by all means use it. an example of what I mean Qpie's suggestions (and details) were all for the ToO, not IB. Not sure why he was talking about that in an IB thread. Then he said, " The only thing that changes in IB is that Voidwalkers become better than sunsinger imho. Defenders are not bad, but also not good. Also keeper of the pack is not needed (obviously). Grenade spawn exotics and the ram are the best choices I think." So my immediate followup is why? VW seems better form the vantage point of having an offensive super that can kill. That's good. But is having this super two to three times in a ten minute game better than having an extra grenade the entire game period? I don't know, so I'm curious as to the 'why' Witty specifically asked for both IB and Trials loadouts, so that's what qupie gave him. Voidwalkers can blink to get out of all kinds of tricky spots which you'll see more of against 6 enemies than vs 3, Nova bomb can wipe full teams off control points, bloom can get you multikills on grenades if the enemies are grouped together, axion bolt isn't as good as firebolt to me but it's still excellent, blink allows for a more rush-happy style than you can get with a sunsinger IMO, etc. Personally I wouldn't be running the double 'nade perk on my sunsinger anyway so that's not a consideration for me. With high discipline you're getting a new 'nade every 30 seconds or so anyway, and a new one every respawn if you run Voidfang. That's my 'why' I guess.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 1, 2015 15:19:07 GMT -5
Good points.
I guess my logic was this.
If there are three opponents on the flag (and I'm a sunsinger), I'm not going in. Why would I? 1 v 3 isn't never good regardless of my perks. I'll go do something else (run around, look elsewhere, flank, etc..)
If there are only one or two people, ...My two grenades and my shooting should get me one bare minimum. If one is left, the self revive almost guarantees the job is finished. The way I see it, is if that can't can't get the job done, those things.... then most likely I am dead and grenades 3, 4, 5, and so on are pretty worthless to me. I can't get it done in two, I suck.
You make a good point about staying away and peppering them with grenades. Very true. But I'm kind of incapable of playing that way. I get to impatient for that. I want to disrupt the flag capping process. If I stay away, grenades miss, they get the flag, I'm screwed. Even I kill them after with grenades, then what? I'm as good as dead anyways, as I'll have to recap it solo in a few moments.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 1, 2015 15:29:08 GMT -5
The question originally asked was what's the best setup for PvP for each class, which qupie and I both answered almost the same way with setups that'd be considered "optimal" by most serious PvP for "smart player" PvP play. If something else is working for you though against randoms or for your playstyle, by all means use it. an example of what I mean Qpie's suggestions (and details) were all for the ToO, not IB. Not sure why he was talking about that in an IB thread. Then he said, " The only thing that changes in IB is that Voidwalkers become better than sunsinger imho. Defenders are not bad, but also not good. Also keeper of the pack is not needed (obviously). Grenade spawn exotics and the ram are the best choices I think." So my immediate followup is why? VW seems better form the vantage point of having an offensive super that can kill. That's good. But is having this super two to three times in a ten minute game better than having an extra grenade the entire game period? I don't know, so I'm curious as to the 'why' The why question is indeed the better question most of the time. I didn't have time for that though. I think Hebb summed it up pretty nice there though. Trials is all about the outplay and keeping enemy health low to (avoid) rush. Sunsinger excels in there with firebolts. It can also get real close and messy real quick, that is where sunsingers excel with fire shield. The self revive is just an added bonus. In control it is all about the control points and getting there asap. That is where blink and nova bomb are superior imho. As for radiant skin, sure if you need it you caught allot of fire, but that doesn't mean you failed. Getting killed is part of the game, getting killed less easy is a great bonus imho. It gives you the equivalent of CoD's juggernaut. What is not to like? This is also where the firebolts come in as super handy dandy. Just throw them in the general direction and everything will die (or at least burn and hide)
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 1, 2015 15:35:51 GMT -5
I wouldn't say your logic is nonsensical. Either way can work fine, but one way almost guarantees death and the other doesn't. One way is riskier and the other is more safe. In a game where your deaths mean points for the other team, minimizing your chance of death is fairly important. That's something a lot of people seem to miss, that not dying is just as important as getting kills. True. But not all deaths are equal, are they? It's not so much IF you die in Destiny, it's WHEN you die that is the key to winning control. The math. If you have no flags,...your kill is only worth +100pts. If you have one flag, your kill is worth +100 + 50pt bonus (1x zone domination bonus). that's 150pts. If you have two flags, your kill is worth +200 (2x zone domination bonus). If you all three flags, your kill suddenly becomes worth +300 (3x zone domination bonus) 0 flags = 100 for kill, plus 0 = 100 1 flag = 100 for kill, plus 50 = 150 2 flag = 100 for kill, plus 100 = 200 3 flag = 100 for kill, plus 200 = 300 So yes, Control is a game about 'killing' and KD ratio....but if one is up 2 to 1 in flags...it's in one's benefit to trade kills when you have that bonus on your side. Be risky. Die a lot even, as long as you can maintain a 1.0 KD ratio. Get to the finish line faster. I rush to trade kills, score 200pts on a kill, then die, and they score 100pts...it's a win for me. My 'death' doesn't hurt as much. And in fact, trading kills on a flag makes it even more skewed with the zone of control bonuses on kills (+25pts for zone, +25 for super kills, etc..). If I am viewing this right, the flag losing team almost has to run a 2.10 KD ratio over us to keep things equal on the scoreboard. That's hard to do in Destiny. All in all...the way the scoring works, ....the most bang for the buck is the triple cap. Look at the scoring. Even trading kills on a 1:1 basis, dying even at a 2:3 basis with three kills, is almost a guaranteed win in less than a minute or so. Our team of six gets 12 kills in a minute (with three flags), your team gets 15 kills, ...we still come out with 3,600 points, to your 1,500. You lose fast.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 1, 2015 15:51:16 GMT -5
Yeah, IW, that makes perfect sense. But if one method allows you to potentially get 3 kills without dying, and another method allows you to potentially get 3 kills but you die, with all flag holdings being equal, why would you ever choose the second method? That's what my "B flag on Shores" hypothetical was all about.
I'd also argue that kill trading isn't that great even with a flag advantage. You die and now you're not scoring for 10 - 15 seconds while you wait to respawn and have to run back to the action. Sometimes it's unavoidable, but a lot of times you can take cover and re-engage from a different angle or the other side of a piece of cover. No need to trade kills if you can win outright with a little patience and creativity, and winning > trading all day every day.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 1, 2015 15:59:28 GMT -5
This is why those people who run around going 25-15, getting top point score while capping no flags ultimately aren't winning any games for anyone. If they won't help cap a flag, and the team is perpetually down a flag....the above non-helper's 'effective' worth is much less. These people are front runners.
25-15 = 1.66 KD(with a flag advantage) = 5,000pts scored vs 2,250pts given up ~ 2.22 effective KD 25-15 = 1.66 KD(down a flag, 1 to 2) = 3,750pts scored vs 3,000pts given up ~ 1.25 effective KD
Most players aren't running 1.66 KD ratio in Destiny. You fall down a flag, unless you can run around and effectively run a 1.35 KD or so consistently, ....you are ultimately hurting the team by not focusing on getting that flag back. That seems to be the point missed by most Control players. Saying "I'm getting kills" isn't doing anyone any good. And yeah...these guys are good at killing. But they need to take those killing skills towards that 2nd flag zone, getting it back...PRIORITY number one. Because while there might be a stud on your team that can maintain a 1.50 consistent KD...the other 3 to 4 teammates won't be able to. Most players are in the 0.8 to 1.20 range. You are down a flag, a 1.1 KD player is now an adjusted 0.82 player. Take three of those players...that x 3...and the team score is now getting out of hand. One good stud can't 'outkill' for three average players.
You are right, you don't want to feed kills when down a flag. But the goal shouldn't be to avoid dying, it should be get a flag back, even if it means giving up some deaths to do so.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 1, 2015 16:14:25 GMT -5
Yeah, IW, that makes perfect sense. But if one method allows you to potentially get 3 kills without dying, and another method allows you to potentially get 3 kills but you die, with all flag holdings being equal, why would you ever choose the second method? That's what my "B flag on Shores" hypothetical was all about. I'd also argue that kill trading isn't that great even with a flag advantage. You die and now you're not scoring for 10 - 15 seconds while you wait to respawn and have to run back to the action. Sometimes it's unavoidable, but a lot of times you can take cover and re-engage from a different angle or the other side of a piece of cover. No need to trade kills if you can win outright with a little patience and creativity, and winning > trading all day every day. Well, I'm not advocating blindly rushing in to trade. Obviously a kill with no risk from 20 meters is better than blindly rushing with some risk. But is that ever really truly determinable on the fly? The 'risk' of each encounter? It's hard. There is no such thing as 'this way gets 3 kills and no death' 100% of the time. Every encounter is unique with each person making millisecond decisions on the fly. My point there was that sometimes, like when an opponent or two are capping a flag, it's better to be risky. You have the bonus on your side, so your 'death' doesn't count as much. And if you can disrupt their cap, you keep this bonus. If you sit back, wait, re-engage like you said and let them cap it.... even if you kill both of the people later ...the benefit is smaller, only +100pts, AND worse yet, now all your teammates are losing points on deaths. Every trade is -50pts. You personally might come out ahead, but your teammates won't. Plus now you are having to go sit on the flag to recap it to rectify things, making you vunerable. IMHO, there's a case to be made for being very aggressive and attacking them on the flag. Take the risk. Good thoughts.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 1, 2015 16:20:40 GMT -5
You're misreading what I'm saying. If you're down a flag, yeah, you need to do something about it sooner or later. tactical loitering in the back isn't going to help. But you're still better off getting 3 kills and no deaths than 3 kills and 1 death when trying to retake the B flag.
Using your example, if you're up 2 to 1, why would you rush to trade when you can play to win outright? There are certain scenarios like getting someone off a flag, or shutting down a bladedancer or someone with heavy ammo that are beneficial and it makes sense, but generally speaking trading is strictly worse than winning your gunfights outright.
You've kinda twisted things up here a little bit. At no point did I say "don't die, ever." I laid out two methods for attacking 3 enemies at B flag on Shores in a complete hypothetical, where one way you go 3-0 and the other you go 3-1. There's no circumstance in that example where going 3-1 is better than going 3-0. None.
EDIT: And I see that you responded while I was typing this. I think we're on the same page here, mostly.
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