qupie
True Bro
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Post by qupie on Jul 8, 2015 7:26:06 GMT -5
Your 99% argument from above is false, just go into trials for a weekend, even those players (who are 90% mediocre-good at best) are rocking all the good stuff. It really is not as rare as you sound it to be. Those few months one needs to get accustomed with everything in the game will give you anything you need. And nowadays it can all be collected by purely playing PvP. (crucible marks for armour, crucible bounties for thorn bounty, play crucible for some of the best shotguns/snipers, buy DO rocket launcher) It can all be done in PvP. You also get plenty of strange coins and you can play ToO for a few chances of exotics every week per character! Out of curiosity, how often do you see anyone not use an exotic armour piece in ToO? about 1/10 of games? But some seem to be doing it out of choice (we have ben obliterated by a streamer carying viewers, int/disp is often way more important than an exotic armour perk. If all PvP oritentated gear has permanent availability, like the Crucible and Vanguard vendors, then your point stands but this is not the case. So long as Xur sells this gear on a limited time and stock basis, this will always be the problem, and then there's the issue of non-static stat rolls on said pieces. Some exotic armour pieces could help make the difference between getting to the Lighthouse or not. Armamentarium? Voidfang Vestments? The Ram? Achlyophage Symbiote? I know the Symbiote has helped me win a round a few times when I'm the last Guardian standing, even if I don't use the fourth Golden Gun shot, I know it's there as a backup because of Ram users or extra agile Blandedancers. Always enjoy killing Bladadancers with my Golden Gun for some reason. I am not disagreeing here, that it would be more fair or something if it was available to everybody. All I am saying is that some ppl are extremely overestimating the amount of players who don't have top gear, and the ammount of time it costs to get top gear. Or implying being good in destiny doesn't need skill.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 8, 2015 8:14:41 GMT -5
I never said Destiny players are 'bad'. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said it is a slower game compared to AW. That is true. 100% True. you said: "Those guys would cross over and be right into the mix with the best players in the Destiny world, if not be better." which is only evidence that you did not look at top destiny players content. And simply not true Ok? That sure doesn't sound like I called anyone 'bad'. Nope. Never said it. It sure sounds like I'm saying the current group of people who are playing CoD competitively on the pro scene, winning tournaments and such...would be able to cross over and do well in Destiny. AND...in some instances, probably do better as LAN competing is different than just playing ToO. No where there did I say anyone sucks or is bad. And I say that because there's quite a bit of precedent there. I know of at least five guys on the current CoD scene who were pro/MLG Halo players prior to that game being dumped from MLG. They crossed right over to CoD, joined up immediately with top teams, and played in top tournaments. There is zero doubt in my mind that if CoD was dropped tomorrow from MLG and replaced by Destiny (in some type of comp game) in the pro circuit...nearly all those guys would be capable of immediately competing at a very very high level. Most of them just all rotate games, to where the money is. In fact, many of the groups who sponsor, would probably pick up many of the same players.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 8, 2015 8:29:40 GMT -5
If a game wants to be respected or seen as being 'competitive' it has to have certain things. Private lobby mode to set up matches, LAN settings, and a playlist that allows everyone equal access to all items. You need these things. When CoD lost some of them years ago, it was dropped from MLG. When CoD added them all back, with even more enhancements (like theater, broadcast mode, highlighting players, etc..)...the esport went through the roof with ratings. So you need to start somewhere and a REAL mode that allows competitive play is item #1. As long as you have even ONE more item available to you, that i don't have....then it's not 'competitive'. What are you even arguing here? I can completely see your point, but you are extremely overstating and exagerating. That is the only thing I am correcting. I understand completely what you mean, I have a brain. I responded on your post that COD players can wreck as soon as the pick up the game, and that COD is 'harder' to play, or that you are greatly overestimating the amount of grinding needed to get top pvp gear. You just keep stating the same argument, we are not talking about this anymore. I changed my definition of 'competitive' to line it up with you guys. (even though competitive really only means you are better in the given sport/game you are talking about. So one can be competitive in everything.)What I am discussing? The Topic. Should Destiny have parts of it's game gravitate towards the more competitive side of things, Esports. I don't think so. But that said, IF it does move in that direction, the present game, how it's built now, I don't feel it will work for all the reasons I said above, that you said were 'exaggerations'. To repeat myself yet again,Loot/RNG doesn't fit with the competitive elements. And it's not just due to grinding for stuff (which you seem to focus most on), but also other factors too, as I mentioned to you. To be 'competitive', a game needs to have certain things built into it. Destiny doesn't have that. No LAN settings, no private lobbies with adjustable items, no broadcast mode, no separate comp playlist. Lots of reasons. All these things were the reasons CoD was held back for a number of years. CoD has all the above things I mentioned...so it IS a competitive game regardless of what you think. It was picked up on the Esports circut. And your opinion that it doesn't really get any media attention at all? It had a Million dollar tournament a few months ago with plenty of media there. It was in the X Games for crying out loud. X games. What more do you want? Jesus Christ, no offense here, you might want to read up a bit more on this stuff. I'm not saying it's on the same level as the NFL or NBA, but in terms of Esports, it's up in the upper tier (group) of competitive Esports gaming these days. Might not be that way years from now, but for now, ...it is. That's not really even up for debate.
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qupie
True Bro
Posts: 12,400
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Post by qupie on Jul 8, 2015 8:42:29 GMT -5
I must have totally missed that COD part then, I don't know. I am not really into COD anymore. After reading up on it now though, it sounds like a publicity stunt from activision more than anything else. And it still sounds like there is lots of 'politics' in which teams actually get chosen to compete.
But it is bogus what you are saying about the top destiny players. They are not playing ToO... They are actually competing against other teams in tournaments! But again, I agree with your general points. I don't agree with some things you say to support those points. So no reason to bring up the general point again. Yes destiny is far from a lan type of competitive game. That doesn't mean one cannot be competitive in this game, or one can't have some serious skill in this game, or that it is 'easier' than COD. Or that 99% of the pvp players in this game are at an disadvantage. Or that a COD player will easily be as good or better than destiny players as soon as he picks it up. It also doesn't make gathering top crucible gear any harder.
Those are the points I was discussing. and again: I (and I think we all do) agree with your general point. So no need to repeat that.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 8, 2015 9:12:05 GMT -5
Well yes, one can be competitive with anything. Even arm wrestling and Yahtzee. 'Competitive' can be described as a state of mind. So anything can be competitive.
But where I am coming from is the structural elements of making a video game like Destiny competitive.
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mannon
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wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
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Post by mannon on Jul 8, 2015 9:20:11 GMT -5
I think by making a game like Destiny "competitive" you mean making it optimal for pro esports. "Competitive" even in this context is far too vague.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 8, 2015 9:35:59 GMT -5
I think by making a game like Destiny "competitive" you mean making it optimal for pro esports. "Competitive" even in this context is far too vague. I don't think it's vague at all in an Esports sense. It's all been mapped out before. CoD went through this whole process a few years ago. CoD got kicked out of the Esports circuit during the MW3 season. Gone. No media coverage, no following, no circuit. The community was in an uproar. There were tons of articles and discussions on it all over the pace. Amongst players, community and the game developers. The changes that were needed, were clearly outlined and discussed. Improvements were implemented. All the things I just discussed in the prior posts (and that Destiny does not have). These changes worked. The game went from being dead in Esports terms...to now being one of the most busiest on the Esports scene...in terms of following, media coverage, money, attention, broadcast following and such. What's vague there? If people want the game to go in that competitive direction (Esports), that's the road-map to take. Why reinvent the wheel. You need those things in the game. If people want the direction to be just more in the casual direction, a bit more competition, then ToO might be enough. All is good. Nothing more needs to be discussed. But...if people think ToO is 'enough', to make it a competitive game like the direction CoD went, they are fooling themselves. It won't work. It can't work. There are dozens of things missing from ToO that make it kind of meaningless, from a competitive gaming sense. I think this is the point I am arguing with Qpie on. personally speaking, I don't care either way. I haven't even played ToO yet. I think I will like it, just haven't had a chance to play it yet.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 8, 2015 10:07:27 GMT -5
Here's a nice older article for people (Feb 2015) It's regarding Halo. How the community there, is trying to get it back into the Esports circuit. There's some interesting bits in this article, that tie into this topic. - You can see just how fluent/transient the pro gaming community is. The community is tiny. These people easily swap back between FPS games. It's what they do. If Destiny moves in that direction, many of these players will be there at the top of the list yet again. It's just how it is. esports-nation.com/the-future-of-halo-esports-part-1-featuring-saucey/
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 8, 2015 10:19:40 GMT -5
Some other articles (this stuff is interesting from a business standpoint too, with repercussions being felt by the old guard Cable industry) -------------------------------------- charlieintel.com/2014/04/14/call-of-duty-becomes-most-viewed-esports-title-takes-1-spot-over-league-of-legends/www.redbull.com/en/esports/stories/1331645000683/call-of-duty-tops-western-esports-audienceIn Asia, LoL is still the top of the heap. But in the US and Western Europe, it's a different story: "According to Warman, the most popular eSports franchise in the US and Western Europe together is Call of Duty with 44 percent, followed by League of Legends (42 percent), World of Tanks (17 percent), StarCraft 2 (13 percent) and Dota 2 (7 percent). However, when zooming in on active eSports participants, the ranking changes and the popularity of true eSports titles rise,” said Warman. “Call of Duty is still on top, being played by 56 percent of active eSports participants. The other franchises also score significantly higher than among viewers only: StarCraft (49 percent), World of Tanks (45 percent), League of Legends (42 percent) and Dota 2 (33 percent). Clearly, the differences in popularity are a lot smaller now, illustrating the competitiveness among these five key titles. It also shows that eSports enthusiasts play more than one game.”" Article from Nov 0f 2014 www.newzoo.com/in-the-press/call-of-duty-tops-western-esports-audience/Another article from April 2015 www.huffingtonpost.com/jesse-aaron/the-state-of-competitive-_b_6999656.htmlMay 2015 - great article on global esports. Total market jumped to $612 million in 2015, with over half of that in China/SKorea. Viewership has almost tripled in three years, to 134 million people. www.allinmag.com/e-sports/inside-esports/the-business/2015/05/07/17/16/may-2015-shively-blog-esports-market-trendsJune of 2015 www.businessinsider.com/gfinitys-esports-tournaments-draw-30-million-viewers-online-2015-6March 2015 www.vg247.com/2015/03/31/how-esports-changed-call-of-duty/"To see these players use the mechanics and how they’re nerding the maps – that’s what our pro consultant calls it – going through the maps inch by inch. Seeing them put that together with the exo movement, to know where the spawns are coming from, it’s amazing to see,” says lead multiplayer designer Greg Reisdorf. “Fresh eyes always give you a different perspective on how to attack a problem,” adds Condrey “They’ll do things interesting and new in maps that we’ve seen over and over again and lost sight of. The eSports community in particular are so fast. They deconstruct maps so quickly. They build team strategies so fast and accurately that we just don’t expect.”
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mannon
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wordy bastard PSN:mannonc Steam:mannonc XB:BADmannon
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Post by mannon on Jul 8, 2015 11:18:44 GMT -5
IW5000 the word "competitive" it-self is what I was referring to as being vague. Not any of this other stuff. You keep saying Destiny isn't "competitive" or can't be "competitive". To someone into esports that may have a very particular meaning. To all the rest of us it very much does not. To me and the majority of the people in the Destiny community and probably who read this Destiny board "competitive" does not equal esports. They're certainly related, but not equivalent.
That's all. It's where a LOT of arguing has gone back and forth and back and forth because we all have different definitions of "competitive" in this context. That's all I'm pointing out.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 8, 2015 11:33:18 GMT -5
IW5000 the word "competitive" it-self is what I was referring to as being vague. Not any of this other stuff. You keep saying Destiny isn't "competitive" or can't be "competitive". To someone into esports that may have a very particular meaning. To all the rest of us it very much does not. To me and the majority of the people in the Destiny community and probably who read this Destiny board "competitive" does not equal esports. They're certainly related, but not equivalent. That's all. It's where a LOT of arguing has gone back and forth and back and forth because we all have different definitions of "competitive" in this context. That's all I'm pointing out. Yes, I realize that. I commented on that earlier, "If people want the direction to be just more in the casual direction, a bit more competition, then ToO might be enough. All is good. Nothing more needs to be discussed. But...if people think ToO is 'enough', to make it a competitive game like the direction CoD went, they are fooling themselves. It won't work. It can't work. There are dozens of things missing from ToO that make it kind of meaningless, from a competitive gaming sense. I think this is the point I am arguing with Qpie on. "
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