mannon
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Post by mannon on Jul 7, 2015 12:21:41 GMT -5
I've been running mostly Nothing Monacles for PvP Voidwalker since I got them, although that's largely because they let me play Voidbro like a Sunsinger with two grenades... Anytime I roll with just 1 'nade I die a lot just because I forget I don't have a grenade up and try to throw one instead of shooting. ;3 I also just like it. I like running offensive with nova bomb and two grenades that can all wipe out clustered guardians, though I'm still bad at getting chances to use them. I'm also still terrible with blink....
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 7, 2015 12:24:20 GMT -5
To Qupie - No one brags on this board, but I see it on Reddit. I think this board has a slightly older age, making it better. - I hardly ever use the thorn. I use the Red Death - I don't really find making the best loadout a skill per se. It's more a function of having the time (and willingness) to sift through endless pages of Reddit and other info dump places. If you have 5th grade reading skills...you can master the 'art' of making a good loadout. Use this gun, that gun, and roll for these loadouts. The true skill here? It's simply time. Having the time to put into playing this game a lot so one can accumulate the things you need, to be on a level playing field. Well, that is the difference between where the game is at this moment, and where the game should be. Right now there is quite a bit of “the best loadouts” which is a bad thing imho. The game should be more balanced, and your playstyle is still a factor in some way in some parts (like with the voidwalker, or the radiant skin vs fireborn argument like we did above) ^^^ and the above is ultimately my point. You cannot ever truly have "Competive & Loot/RPG" in the same sentence. The two do not mesh. This really depends on the definition of competitive I guess. But I can see your point Witty made an ok attempt to try and make it work...but I can't fully agree with him there. Getting to his assumption that the only people who play the ToO and stuff like IB, are only those who have invested the time, so by default, they are all on an equal playing field. That might work for brief spurts, but not on a whole imho. Take myself for an example. I took just a few weeks break after HoW came out....and I was instantly behind. I was NOT on a level playing field doing the past TWO Iron Banners. In fact, I was horribly gimped the first one, and somewhat weaker this past IB. I really can’t agree with you there, it is not THAT much of a difference, there is some difference though, but that is as advertised. Ideally though, I think ToO should not have level differences, that should have only been iron banner. While the ram is a very good exotic, some others (like voidfang) can also give you great advantages on other areas. I for one always use voidfang in ToO for example (or quickrevive) That's not being competitive. And if I go into the ToO tomorrow, I wouldn't have as many tools available as others (note - I'm not complaining about my status the last two IB's. I was playing for EL, not results) Competitive is when both sides are playing by the same rules, with the same tools available (assuming no cheating) NFL, NBA, MLB, UFC, Tour de France, NASCAR, even MLG stuff with CoD. Well, to some degree. A case could be made some leagues have unequal access to higher revenues, allowing them to buy more players. This is the MLB example. But for the most part, that's how it works. And again...I'm not saying Destiny needs to be competitive. Maybe Witty is right, and this is the direction it needs to go? I don't know. I don't think it does. I think it does it should not try to be a shooter like everything else, it has its niche, and it should keep playing to its strengths!
I think the level differences experienced by most of us (max 2 levels difference) can be comparable to playing with a sub-optimal weapon in COD. Like using an M4 instead of ACR in MW2. It is not THAT big of a difference, and good players with M4 will still completely obliterate a bad player with ACR. And don't get me wrong, these COD comparisons is not to be nitpicky on COD or saying COD is a bad game. It has served me very well for allot of years, it is simply the only reasonable comparison I am able to make Qupie What is the base health increase?N/m...it looks like around 10% or so. 210 to 230. 200 to 220. It only seems to buff the shield health with 10-23%, so that is 8-22 extra health depending on your armour settings.One thing to add to the video, while a Titan magnetic grenade stuff on a RAM wearer will kill it....it won't kill the Ram wearer, if the grenade tosser is a level lower. I found this out a few times this past weekend. All in all, this is a huge benefit. Hunter grenades won't kill you. And any underleveled Titan grenade tossers won't kill you either. This helmet can pretty much, sort of eliminate 1/3 to 1/2 of all potential sticky grenades on you in a game. Having a grenade every time you spawn is a huge benefit as well, as is nothing manacles grenades or quickrevive in the 3v3 modes. Ram is borderline OP though, and bad design imho. But one should not forget it is the only exotic they can wear, and they lose some other great ability the video also shows the Red Death, thorn and TLW. An extra bullet with each. That's fairly substantial. An opponent needs four body shots with the TLW, rather than 3. Or three headshots with the RedDeath, rather than two. agreed (although 6 hits in the head with red death is fairly rare, it is still a great advantage to have)
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jul 7, 2015 12:35:05 GMT -5
Level differences affecting PvP is actually a necessary evil in any Destiny event or mode that is going to have high end loot. That is why it applies to ToO. Because if it did not they would have to dumb down the rewards considerably to keep level 8 players with no legendary gear from skipping right over most of the progression. The level difference is used to gate IB and ToO as end game level activities while Crucible is open to practically anybody who's run 3 or 4 story missions.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 7, 2015 12:35:20 GMT -5
First of all, qupie thanks a lot for answering my questions. Voidwalker is indeed an interesting subclass, it does not have anything that is off the chart stellar (don't have multi-kill crazy supers like Hunters do, and don't have great perks like flaming shield, or 2 grenades like Sunsinger or Titan with Armamantarium), but it does have solid choices in every ability category to keep it balanced with the others. To the "competitive" debate: my main point is not to make Destiny into a game that players can "compete" with each other. I am merely talking about directions that the game can go to offer a more "competitive" experience: assuming minimal level/gear advantage, a player/team who is better at Destiny sandbox is better rewarded, so players are inspired to play PvP more to get better, at least for players like me who care less on beating others and care more on seeing noticeable improvements vs. myself. Note that I said Destiny sandbox here, so players who are good at this are not necessarily a better FPS player. They are just better at fighting in this sandbox (e.g.: they know at what distance to start shoulder charge, or how to best throw a Axion Bolt grenade at a player behind cover).
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 12:38:34 GMT -5
I think the level differences experienced by most of us (max 2 levels difference) can be comparable to playing with a sub-optimal weapon in COD. Like using an M4 instead of ACR in MW2. It is not THAT big of a difference, and good players with M4 will still completely obliterate a bad player with ACR. And don't get me wrong, these COD comparisons is not to be nitpicky on COD or saying COD is a bad game. It has served me very well for allot of years, it is simply the only reasonable comparison I am able to make [/font][/quote] I get what you are saying. And you are right, sometimes it's hard to tell just how much of a disadvantage you are under. In many circumstances, it might be small. But here's the thing. If you truly want a 'competitive' game, where it's played at like a MLG CoD/CS/LoL level....you can't be having this Loot/RNG stuff. it can't exist. Not even if the differences are small. There can't be ANY differences. Both sides have to have equal access to the same tools/weapons, and from there, be allowed to decide what's best for them. You simply can't have a situation where you have the option of using the Ram, and I don't. And even me having Voidfang, that doesn't make up for that. I personally feel Destiny doesn't need to go this route. There are bigger issues that need addressed. My point is that IF Bungie feels a need to go to some League play, Clan vs Clan, MLG esque stuff....whatever it may be.....the present system has to be dumped. You can't allow loot based stuff. If it goes that route, the league they have....it should have EVERYTHING accessible to use, for anyone playing in that mode. That would make it work, while still allowing the people who play 50 hours a week, a chance to reap the benefits from it. Just my two cents.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 7, 2015 12:40:13 GMT -5
I get what you are saying. And you are right, sometimes it's hard to tell just how much of a disadvantage you are under. In many circumstances, it might be small. But here's the thing. If you truly want a 'competitive' game, where it's played at like a MLG CoD/CS/LoL level....you can't be having this Loot/RNG stuff. it can't exist. Not even if the differences are small. There can't be ANY differences. Both sides have to have equal access to the same tools/weapons, and from there, be allowed to decide what's best for them. You simply can't have a situation where you have the option of using the Ram, and I don't. And even me having Voidfang, that doesn't make up for that. I personally feel Destiny doesn't need to go this route. There are bigger issues that need addressed. My point is that IF Bungie feels a need to go to some League play, Clan vs Clan, MLG esque stuff....whatever it may be.....the present system has to be dumped. You can't allow loot based bs. iw5000: I sent the following before seeing your post, so here it is again to clarify what I mean by "competitive" For the competitive experience in your view, I want that too and I am planning to get my fix from Halo 5 Arena MP
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 12:43:04 GMT -5
Ok ...I get what you are saying. I added this afterwards...
"If it goes that route, the league they have....it should have EVERYTHING accessible to use, for anyone playing in that mode. That would make it work, while still allowing the people who play 50 hours a week, a chance to reap the benefits from it"
Would that fit in with what you are saying?
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 7, 2015 12:47:52 GMT -5
Still depends on your definition of competitive, but as players here seem to agree that competitive is "gunskill only", I will adapt and use that definition as well from now on. I will therefore agree completely, it will never be the top competitive FPS game in the world. But stating it can never be close to competitive or one player can never say they are better than another is simply not true imho. Look at some streams/youtube players and you will feel very noob.
A real competitive mode in destiny (as in tournaments) should exclude very exotic in the game anyway imho, and maybe give players a set of set legendaries (with fixed perks) to choose from. But I don't think it will ever actually go there.
(competitive in my book is using everything you can within a given rule set. Let me use cycling in the tour the france as an example. Most of your performance will be dictated how much talent and training you have, but having a good diet, great motivating/tactical team leader, good physician, and the right doctor who gives you the medicine you are allowed to use can still give you an advantage.
I feel this is in some way comparable to having that 100 int / 100 disp loadout compared to somebody else who only has a 90 / 90 loadout)
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 12:56:04 GMT -5
Still depends on your definition of competitive, but as players here seem to agree that competitive is "gunskill only", I will adapt and use that definition as well from now on. I will therefore agree completely, it will never be the top competitive FPS game in the world. But stating it can never be close to competitive or one player can never say they are better than another is simply not true imho. Look at some streams/youtube players and you will feel very noob. A real competitive mode in destiny (as in tournaments) should exclude very exotic in the game anyway imho, and maybe give players a set of set legendaries (with fixed perks) to choose from. But I don't think it will ever actually go there. (competitive in my book is using everything you can within a given rule set. Let me use cycling in the tour the france as an example. Most of your performance will be dictated how much talent and training you have, but having a good diet, great motivating/tactical team leader, good physician, and the right doctor who gives you the medicine you are allowed to use can still give you an advantage) True, but in that Tour de France example....every other pro cycling team will also have the option (and availability) of using/hiring a good manager, good physician, trainer, and so forth. That's the key - availability. Everyone has equal opportunity to seek out and use everything everyone else has. In Destiny right now, that's not really the case. And that creates a bit of a roadblock, when discussing options. Anyways, I'm not saying there aren't different levels of skill amongst players. There is. I'm referring more to the gaming vehicle or environment where one can truly put those skills to test. As it is now, even a true Godlike Destiny PvP player can't really say he's the best of the best, as the environment he/she plays in is loot based. Again, keep in mind the Destiny world. A few months ago Bungie's own stats said that only 15% of the player base had even tried the VoG.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 7, 2015 13:00:25 GMT -5
What I want from a "pure" competitive experience in a league play like setting, anything that can give anybody any advantage is removed or minimized, including: 1) everybody has the same weapon start, same health, and same "perks"; 2) starting spawns are equal, don't have "strong" side vs "weak" side; 3) dedicated servers to minimize networking advantage or randomness; 4) Players fight for power weapons/ammos/power-ups at neutral locations, not just get them for free (like supers in Destiny), or even earn them through streaks (like killstreaks in CoD); and most importantly: 5) players are matched with peers at similar skill level In an environment like this, I go in to try to outplay / outsmart / out maneuver opponents, preferably with great communications with teammates, in order to win, for the pure thrill of winning a close game. No need to worry about not having better weapons / gears / "supers" / god like opponent that I have no hope of beating and/or "terrible" teammates (relative to me). In a perfect world, my W/L ratio hovers around 50, but over time I am getting better and playing with/against better players. I no longer expect or even want Destiny to provide something like this, that's not the niche the game should be focusing on. Having some kind of advantage one way or the other is the way of life, the fun is in how to maximize your own advantage vs. the opponent's weaknesses.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 7, 2015 13:06:02 GMT -5
Still depends on your definition of competitive, but as players here seem to agree that competitive is "gunskill only", I will adapt and use that definition as well from now on. I will therefore agree completely, it will never be the top competitive FPS game in the world. But stating it can never be close to competitive or one player can never say they are better than another is simply not true imho. Look at some streams/youtube players and you will feel very noob. A real competitive mode in destiny (as in tournaments) should exclude very exotic in the game anyway imho, and maybe give players a set of set legendaries (with fixed perks) to choose from. But I don't think it will ever actually go there. (competitive in my book is using everything you can within a given rule set. Let me use cycling in the tour the france as an example. Most of your performance will be dictated how much talent and training you have, but having a good diet, great motivating/tactical team leader, good physician, and the right doctor who gives you the medicine you are allowed to use can still give you an advantage) True, but in that Tour de France example....every other pro cycling team will also have the option (and availability) of using/hiring a good manager, good physician, trainer, and so forth. That's the key - availability. Everyone has equal opportunity to seek out and use everything everyone else has. In Destiny right now, that's not really the case. And that creates a bit of a roadblock, when discussing options. There still is the money part though, or there is one team which has the best sprinter. Or if you compare it with football soccer, there is only one Messi or Ronaldo for example. Or hell, if you get the flu, which is kinda RNG . But that part was only to show you guys what I think is competitive, I will use your definition from now on.Anyways, I'm not saying there aren't different levels of skill amongst players. There is. I'm referring more to the gaming vehicle or environment where one can truly put those skills to test. As it is now, even a true Godlike Destiny PvP player can't really say he's the best of the best, as the environment he/she plays in is loot based. Again, keep in mind the Destiny world. A few months ago Bungie's own stats said that only 15% of the player base had even tried the VoG. The thing is, as things stand now, the real creme de la creme PvP competitive scene all use the same things, so loot based is not in there anymore (which is a bad thing imho, but still true). Everybody uses thorn or TLW. The best weapons are not THAT hard to come by, so in the competitive scene everybody has access to the best gear in the game. I see your point though, but it doesn't really hold for the top players
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 7, 2015 13:20:48 GMT -5
Anyways, I'm not saying there aren't different levels of skill amongst players. There is. I'm referring more to the gaming vehicle or environment where one can truly put those skills to test. As it is now, even a true Godlike Destiny PvP player can't really say he's the best of the best, as the environment he/she plays in is loot based. Again, keep in mind the Destiny world. A few months ago Bungie's own stats said that only 15% of the player base had even tried the VoG. Yes and no. On the weapons side, any "best of the best" player is using Thorn or TLW, a shotgun or sniper they're rolled to perfection, and a rocket launcher they've rolled to perfection. Thorn and TLW barely count as loot-based since just about anyone who's put in playtime has had a chance to get the Thorn bounty done, and Xur's sold TLW 3 or 4 times now. There's no RNG there really. Felwinter's Lie was obtainable by everyone and is still a top tier shotty, and Judgment is available to purchase from New Monarchy at any time. No RNG there either. With snipers there's more of an argument, but there's also a much broader array of what gets used. Some prefer the HoW guns with Hidden Hand and Unflinching, some like older TDB guns with field scout for more ammo, others are still using Praedyth's Revenge, plenty are using Efrideet's which was available to anyone a couple times I think. So there's some RNG but not a ton there. The rocket launcher sold by Dead Orbit is basically good enough, and I'd guess all the good PvPers bought a Tomorrow's Answer from Trials or already had a god-rolled RL anyway. Again, little or no RNG. So when those guys are playing against each other, everyone is on equal footing when it comes to weapons. On armor, there's more chance for variation and there's some difficulty in getting a "perfect" stat split you want while also keeping the "perfect" perks you want. I would imagine this is less of an issue for the best PvP players as they've probably picked up any vendor gear since the release of the game with stats/perks that appeal to them, and can pretty easily put a "perfect" set together now. With as much PvE and as little PvP that I played, I hardly ever had the marks available to buy any crucible vendor gear even if I wanted to (and I didn't because I was only looking for raid gear for PvE purposes because I didn't care about PvP at the time). Outside of that, almost every exotic armor piece that top-tier players would use has been sold multiple times by now. The Ram is the only exception there, so I guess some of them could have gotten the short end on the engram lottery and missed out, assuming they play Warlock in the first place. All in all though, the top players all have access to basically equal equipment.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jul 7, 2015 13:26:18 GMT -5
I'm just sitting here wondering why they keep selling the same armor over and over. My vault is full enough as it is, it's really hard to justify having two different sets of Iron Banner armor that have the exact same roll. It's even worse when it's the exact same armor as last IB. Will I ever be able to re-roll it?
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jul 7, 2015 13:27:37 GMT -5
I don't think it's that big a roadblock. Any serious Destiny player can achieve a top tier PvP loadout, and as long as you have just 1 top tier loadout you have your foot in the door as far as I'm concerned. Everything beyond that is just style and options. Get yourself Thorn, Matador, DO Launcher, Voidfang, and enough legendary gear to run 33 or 34 and go for gold. There's other loadouts too, which just makes it easier to achieve one. I had Hawkmoon and Red Death before Thorn. I think both are viable. There's a ton of top tier Felwenter's out there and Radagast's Fury, ect...
Is the top badass somehow denegrated because there may be some player with more skill that hasn't yet achieve a top tier loadout to compete with him? I don't think so. I don't think it besmerches someone's victories just because players choose to try to compete with lesser gear. It's their choice. I haven't trained for cycling for years to hone my body into athletic excellence or done the work to assemble and manage a cycling team. I sure as hell couldn't expect a level playing field in the Tour de France.
You were just saying how any player can get to the end game by simply putting in enough time to get the loot. So which is it? Is it unfair because not everybody has the same loot at the same time or is it not competitive because any player can eventually get to the end game loot just by spending enough time on the game? I think it's maybe a little of both in it's own way, but the point is that the game gives players the choice. You can choose to play IB and ToO without a top tier loadout if you want to, and you can potentially profit from it too. But it's on you, because there are other things you could be doing to get there as well. If you can't compete against better loadouts it's not their fault, your character just wasn't ready yet.
In my opinion you can't call yourself a top Destiny player without a top tier loadout anyway. Not unless you can beat all those other players and muscle your way to the top without one. But frankly, you won't. You can do well, very well. You can even go 9-0 in ToO. But there are plenty of players that have both top tier loadouts and top tier skills. There's just not really any sort of ranking or tournament system to raise them up. Top tier players with top tier loadouts have every right to be proud of their victories in my opinion even if they do wind up spending a lot of their time stomping on guardians without the loadouts to compete. But given the MM we have they also are playing against guardians without the skills to compete so there's not always going to be that many challenges for them.
I think maybe what Destiny needs is a new event. Something like a quarterly event with SBMM, visible ranks, and a leaderboard. Maybe even cut out the level/attack/defense bonuses and make it more like Crucible, reduce super and grenade energy/orb rates and heavy ammo drops. Hell maybe put a delay on the radar or something too. Do whatever you want to the game mode, even ban exotics or whatever. Playing matches could still earn some sort of rank, but it would be more in line with regular Crucible. At the end sort players first by their SBMM rank, then by something like score per game, then their XP or games played and award the highest players in the leaderboard the best rewards one way or another... I don't know... It would be nice to have something that feels more like a tournament in that way. And I think if it were somewhat rare unlike ToO it would draw more players which you need to make the SBMM work. (Small teams like ToO could help too. I think 6v6 is difficult for Destiny sometimes.)
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 13:38:25 GMT -5
Some of you are missing the point of things. When you keep saying it's not hard to go get all you need, AND everyone already has it. This is incorrect thinking. It's also kind of a circular point you have. The..." All the people who play it a ton, already have all the best stuff.....so they are on equal footing" Ok, yes, that's true. But you have kind of created a situation where you have the equivalent of a 5'4" person bragging about being the tallest person at a dwarf party.
So my point here (which might be getting missed) is IF you truly want a respected "competitive" game, that follows along what other places are doing (CS, CoD, LoL, as well as real sports, etc..), you need to dump this exclusive club environment. It needs to be pick up & play. A game mode where everyone has everything available to use, at their disposal, when the game begins. Everyone is on equal footing. CoD League play did this. If Destiny did this, it needs to be an environment that opens it doors to say all three million Destiny players and gives them ALL a chance to take a stab at it, not just the 5,200 people who have played Destiny 1,500 hours and have all the right pieces and equipment. And yes, probably most of those three million will get their asses kicked. But at least they will have a chance to compete. An equal footing. That is the essence of competition.
Again, there's no reason to fear this. Unless high level Destiny players enjoy that exclusive club setting & want to keep the available pool of competition as small as possible...so that their 'hours played' can protect them. Cause that's how it looks if Bungie goes the 'competitive' route, while maintaining tons of grinding hours to get all you need, in order to compete. For example, what if a new competitive environment pops up, and it starts drawing more Halo and CoD players. Do they have to put in 50 to 100 hours of gaming, to get all the things the Destiny vets have? What if someone like Optic Nadeshot what's to go compete in some high level Destiny tournament? He wouldn't be able to just pick up & play. What if there are gems in the rough out there, who want to get into the competitive aspects? Do they have to first log ridiculous hours and hope for loot? This is absurd. It's anti competitive.
Anyways, the present system, if it did want to go full on competitive..... should be encouraging competition, not restricting it.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 7, 2015 13:50:13 GMT -5
I really don't think that any of the top players have anything to fear from players who are not lvl 34 with most exotics anyway. Destiny is a pretty unique game mechanics whise, and without some practice you will not be any kind of thread to the "pro's" anyway. If Optic Nadeshot would pick up my account (which has almost everything one could hope for) he will not do very well. He will probably still be better than me, but he won't be the god he is in COD. I think that will take at least a few hundred hours in the game. Which can easily give you a competitive equipment set.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 13:56:49 GMT -5
I don't think it's that big a roadblock. Any serious Destiny player can achieve a top tier PvP loadout, and as long as you have just 1 top tier loadout you have your foot in the door as far as I'm concerned. Everything beyond that is just style and options. Get yourself Thorn, Matador, DO Launcher, Voidfang, and enough legendary gear to run 33 or 34 and go for gold. Play along with this example. You are an ex Halo MLG player. You want to get into Destiny's new competitive league game mode, which is rumored to be coming out with the new DLC in September. It might even be featured in MLG events. You go to pick up the game in August. How long do you think it's going to take to do the above? It's going to take awhile, with you wasting a ton of time doing things you don't want to do (bounties, strikes, leveling, etc..). Again, all you want to do is compete. So even then, after maybe a few weeks of hard grinding, you still will be at the mercy of the loot gods, hoping you get a VoidFang or Ram. The above is why any push to a MLG competitive game environment is going to be a disaster, as long as the game pushes 'time played/loot' Not trying to be mean there. Just saying IF Bungie wants that route, simply make that aspect of the game, have everything be available to use, and open to everyone. What's the controversy with that? Why does that annoy people? I don't understand this point. Well first, Destiny doesn't offer any way of proving someone is a top player. There is no formal competition. A team going 9-0 just may have gotten two games against two groups of blind kids for all you know. Nothing is proven with a weekly ToO. Second, it is true you probably can't be called a top Destiny player without a top loadout....but what good is that if having a 'top loadout' restricts 99% of the player base from even competing? What if there are some incredible players out there, who hate PvE, but have just insane PvP skills? They are cut off. I'm not saying for someone NOT to be proud. But any self respecting supposed 'top player' would openly encourage a playlist that allows every gun, perk and piece of equipment to be available to all players, in a dedicated playlist for competition. That's how a real competitor would think. They wouldn't hide behind 'hours played'.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 14:06:16 GMT -5
I really don't think that any of the top players have anything to fear from players who are not lvl 34 with most exotics anyway. Destiny is a pretty unique game mechanics whise, and without some practice you will not be any kind of thread to the "pro's" anyway. If Optic Nadeshot would pick up my account (which has almost everything one could hope for) he will not do very well. He will probably still be better than me, but he won't be the god he is in COD. I think that will take at least a few hundred hours in the game. Which can easily give you a competitive equipment set. Those guys would cross over and be right into the mix with the best players in the Destiny world, if not be better. On that I don't have a single doubt. The mechanics aren't that different and CoD players are already used to switching up game styles with yearly CoD changes. The difficulty is going from Destiny to CoD, not the other way around. Destiny is a MUCH MUCH slower paced game, requiring 1/10th the fast twitch finger skills as the recent version of CoD. Go play Destiny, then play AW (this is why Destiny pulled so many CoD players away, the game is easier to play) The speed difference is insane. If they have the fast twitch/game awareness to shoot people in AW....Destiny will be a breeze. There's also a lot of precedent for switching. I've already seen a number of top Halo players jump into CoD pro circles in the past few years. They fit right in, in as little as a few months. You have the fast twitch skills, game awareness, comp mindset (LAN setting)...they would easily crossover. Which brings up this point again. Yes, you are right, a top player could/would maybe have a lot of what he needed after playing a few hundred hours of Destiny. But that is missing the point. If these people are coming over to compete....they don't want to spend time doing strikes, bounties, and other silly loot stuff. They want to get in and compete. Jump right in and play the comp mode. Those pro Halo and CoD guys aren't wasting time practicing on CoD or Halo's campaign lol. Why would they want to do that with Destiny? It's a roadblock. And right now, Destiny doesn't have that.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jul 7, 2015 14:07:56 GMT -5
IF you truly want a respected "competitive" game... I think this here is the key point... DO we want Destiny to become such a game? Is that a priority for Destiny? I would say it would be nice if Destiny had some mode or events to cater to such a thing, but it's very much a low priority. It's along the lines of I'd also like to see Sparrow races... It's a cool thing that Destiny maybe COULD do, but that it does not. It's not what Destiny currently is, and it doesn't have to be. I don't think anybody is missing your point. I think we're all just making different points and talking past each other. You seem to want Destiny to become a competitive PvP sport open to everybody. The rest of us mostly just want PvP to be open to Destiny players. People that don't play Destiny already... frankly... I don't care. Destiny PvP is mostly about rewarding the players that play Destiny, same as all the other activities. It's not really there to create an even playing field for all gamers whether they play Destiny regularly or not. I also don't think it's that great a hurtle. I'm a fairly casual player who's gotten very VERY little raid time under my belt, but I can still sport a top tier PvP loadout. Do I have some hours in the game... yeah. But I doubt it's more or much more than I had in MW2 and I only prestiged once in it. And there was no ranked all stuff available game mode back then. Yeah Destiny doesn't exist in a vacuum, but it still lives and dies on it's own merits and to some extent it just doesn't compete with "competitive" games. That's practically a different genre of game. Just because Destiny is a FPS doesn't mean it's the same. It isn't. ToO will never be CS. The question to me isn't whether or not it's competitive with a capitol C, but whether or not it's competitive enough within the Destiny community. I don't much care about how Destiny plays outside the community and I don't have a problem with the progression system being part and parcel to how you obtain rewards. Destiny could create a completely level playlist with everything available... sure. But they would have to nerf the rewards to next to nothing and as a result, few would play. In Destiny progression matters first. It's not the only thing, but they have to limit the ways you can skip over bits of it or else it just becomes irrelevant.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 14:14:04 GMT -5
Actually, I don't want Destiny to become like that. Not sure what I said, to make people think I am sitting here, clamoring for that.
I got hooked on Destiny because I am a obsessive loot collector like most people on this board, and I really enjoyed the friends/fun of doing raids. That's why I got hooked with it. If it becomes all ultra competitor'ish, with what CoD did...then it's essentially becoming that game. I have CoD for that.
My thoughts on this topic are just speaking in theory. Can the present game, become or have elements that approach LoL/CoD pro gaming. I just don't think it can do that, under the present makeup. And if they did decide to go that route, I offered up what I though would be needed.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 7, 2015 15:20:23 GMT -5
We have been having this kind of debate every time IB comes along. Everybody has their own version of what a "perfect" competitive game is like, and we all agree that Destiny will be far from that However, I think that state of PvP is improving since the arrival of ToO. Before that, I almost never ever see friends playing Crucible, but since HoW I have noticed that Crucible is becoming more popular as a pastime. That's what I would like to see: the activity population pattern of Destiny is shifting a bit more towards PvP. Because a more attractive PvP can alleviate the content shortage problem that Destiny has been suffering and keep the players more actively engaged.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 15:48:18 GMT -5
We have been having this kind of debate every time IB comes along. Everybody has their own version of what a "perfect" competitive game is like, and we all agree that Destiny will be far from that However, I think that state of PvP is improving since the arrival of ToO. Before that, I almost never ever see friends playing Crucible, but since HoW I have noticed that Crucible is becoming more popular as a pastime. That's what I would like to see: the activity population pattern of Destiny is shifting a bit more towards PvP. Because a more attractive PvP can alleviate the content shortage problem that Destiny has been suffering and keep the players more actively engaged. Well, Crucible/IB is a way for a solo player to get to level 34. Destiny solo players have never had that option before....so lots of people are now playing it. Before, the only way to get max level (level 32) was to solo Crota. While not time intensive, took a fair bit of learning.
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Post by TheHawkNY on Jul 7, 2015 16:00:03 GMT -5
We have been having this kind of debate every time IB comes along. Everybody has their own version of what a "perfect" competitive game is like, and we all agree that Destiny will be far from that However, I think that state of PvP is improving since the arrival of ToO. Before that, I almost never ever see friends playing Crucible, but since HoW I have noticed that Crucible is becoming more popular as a pastime. That's what I would like to see: the activity population pattern of Destiny is shifting a bit more towards PvP. Because a more attractive PvP can alleviate the content shortage problem that Destiny has been suffering and keep the players more actively engaged. Well, Crucible/IB is a way for a solo player to get to level 34. Destiny solo players have never had that option before....so lots of people are now playing it. Before, the only way to get max level (level 32) was to solo Crota. While not time intensive, took a fair bit of learning. THat's not true. The old Iron Banner gear would get you to level 32.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 7, 2015 16:11:32 GMT -5
To be clear: the trend I am seeing is not about IB. IB's player engagement has always been decent: pre-HoW for reforgeable weapons (among other things), post-HoW for ELs.
My observations of seeing more players playing PvP than before are more about regular crucible. Several factors probably contributed to this shift:
1) Practicing for ToO; 2) Better loot than before (legendary weapons that are reforgeable or at least can be dismantled for motes, passage coins, etc) 3) Lighter PvE content to compete with;
ToO is at least a significant factor for driving this shift. I have heard people talking about going into Crucible not for loot, but for the purpose of getting better, and/or experimenting. That's new in Destiny's history.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 16:30:28 GMT -5
Well, Crucible/IB is a way for a solo player to get to level 34. Destiny solo players have never had that option before....so lots of people are now playing it. Before, the only way to get max level (level 32) was to solo Crota. While not time intensive, took a fair bit of learning. THat's not true. The old Iron Banner gear would get you to level 32. Please excuse my mistake. I remembered that wrongly.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 16:32:20 GMT -5
To be clear: the trend I am seeing is not about IB. IB's player engagement has always been decent: pre-HoW for reforgeable weapons (among other things), post-HoW for ELs. My observations of seeing more players playing PvP than before are more about regular crucible. Several factors probably contributed to this shift: 1) Practicing for ToO; 2) Better loot than before (legendary weapons that are reforgeable or at least can be dismantled for motes, passage coins, etc) 3) Lighter PvE content to compete with; ToO is at least a significant factor for driving this shift. I have heard people talking about going into Crucible not for loot, but for the purpose of getting better. That's new in Destiny's history. you might want to add this. You now get higher Crucible Marks too. It's been upped a fair bit. The work/grind vs return ratio has been adjusted. A player can now actually use marks to get gear. This might be affecting it a bit too.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 8, 2015 4:13:09 GMT -5
I really don't think that any of the top players have anything to fear from players who are not lvl 34 with most exotics anyway. Destiny is a pretty unique game mechanics whise, and without some practice you will not be any kind of thread to the "pro's" anyway. If Optic Nadeshot would pick up my account (which has almost everything one could hope for) he will not do very well. He will probably still be better than me, but he won't be the god he is in COD. I think that will take at least a few hundred hours in the game. Which can easily give you a competitive equipment set. Those guys would cross over and be right into the mix with the best players in the Destiny world, if not be better. On that I don't have a single doubt. The mechanics aren't that different and CoD players are already used to switching up game styles with yearly CoD changes. The difficulty is going from Destiny to CoD, not the other way around. Destiny is a MUCH MUCH slower paced game, requiring 1/10th the fast twitch finger skills as the recent version of CoD. Go play Destiny, then play AW (this is why Destiny pulled so many CoD players away, the game is easier to play) The speed difference is insane. If they have the fast twitch/game awareness to shoot people in AW....Destiny will be a breeze. There's also a lot of precedent for switching. I've already seen a number of top Halo players jump into CoD pro circles in the past few years. They fit right in, in as little as a few months. You have the fast twitch skills, game awareness, comp mindset (LAN setting)...they would easily crossover. You clearly haven't seen any of the top destiny players go to town. Just look at them first before you say they are bad. There is a competitive scene, and there are tournaments. And it is no way slower paced than cod (appart from AW maybe). Take a look at tripplewreck/AEgabriel/ etc etc. After reading what you stated, you really don't have anything to compare to. COD pro players are beasts, and they will be able to get good in destiny, but there are already some beasts in destiy which will not be easy to beat, I can assure you that. This is not a slow paced game! I think it is bogus the switch from destiny to cod is harder. The ttk in destiny is so low atm it is barely any different from cod. On another note, higher ttk games (like halo) have always been seen as more skill dependant than low ttk games, by the whole competitive gaming scene. You do have point with halo players though. That is the only group which will be able to get used to destiny very quick, even before having a decent load out. But then there is still the learning of the maps etc. You are greatly overstating the effort it takes to get good gear. But anyhow, you seem to be forgetting we are talking a RPG/FPS hybrid here again. This is no simple FPS game, and it never will and should be. Your 99% argument from above is false, just go into trials for a weekend, even those players (who are 90% mediocre-good at best) are rocking all the good stuff. It really is not as rare as you sound it to be. Those few months one needs to get accustomed with everything in the game will give you anything you need. And nowadays it can all be collected by purely playing PvP. (crucible marks for armour, crucible bounties for thorn bounty, play crucible for some of the best shotguns/snipers, buy DO rocket launcher) It can all be done in PvP. You also get plenty of strange coins and you can play ToO for a few chances of exotics every week per character! I also think destiny is not that far of from COD on a competitive scene. There is that small competitive scene who all know eachother and compete with eachother in a complete vacuum of the normal players. While skill is a big factor, politics are too, like we discussed a few years ago. Destiny has that too. Hell, destiny constantly trumps COD AW nowadays on twitch viewer numbers.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 8, 2015 5:55:35 GMT -5
I never said Destiny players are 'bad'. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said it is a slower game compared to AW. That is true. 100% True. And you are still missing the point on my other comment. It doesn't matter if it takes a player 1,000 hours, 500 hours or 100 hours to get all the good stuff. It's still taking time to get everything...and it can't just be collected from playing PvP. I got a bazillion hours into this game and i am still missing key things (like the RAM helmet for one example). I played with some friends last night, one of them was missing VoidFang Vestaments, plus a number of good rocket launchers. It's loot based. Come on. And let's be real here. There's nothing more annoying than someone who has 2,000 hours played telling someone else it's 'easy' to get everything. Where's my Foxtroting Ghorn? Well? I thought it was easy to get everything? ? I hear bullshit like that, it makes me want to puke. Bottom line. If a game wants to be respected or seen as being 'competitive' it has to have certain things. Private lobby mode to set up matches, LAN settings, and a playlist that allows everyone equal access to all items. You need these things. When CoD lost some of them years ago, it was dropped from MLG. When CoD added them all back, with even more enhancements (like theater, broadcast mode, highlighting players, etc..)...the esport went through the roof with ratings. So you need to start somewhere and a REAL mode that allows competitive play is item #1. As long as you have even ONE more item available to you, that i don't have....then it's not 'competitive'. The above stands true, regardless of where CoD is now versus Destiny on twitch or other media views. And as far as there being a 'small competitive community scene'......ok? Props to them. Good job on being small and hiding from everyone. Being the proverbial tallest person at a dwarf party. Your comment sounds like the CoD scene back in WaW (2009) where a few clans hid behind private matches claiming to be the best in CoD. Destiny isn't even there yet. No private match mode. I'm not trying to be rude here, but there's no argument to make against my point. I personally don't think Destiny needs this direction. But if it does go that way, the above stuff has to be done. You can't have 'competitive' with 'Loot/RNG'. The two cannot exist. And any REAL competitive player worth his skills would agree. They wouldn't hide behind 2,500 hours played, claiming all the other top players have everything too, so it doesn't matter. That's excuse making.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jul 8, 2015 5:56:10 GMT -5
Your 99% argument from above is false, just go into trials for a weekend, even those players (who are 90% mediocre-good at best) are rocking all the good stuff. It really is not as rare as you sound it to be. Those few months one needs to get accustomed with everything in the game will give you anything you need. And nowadays it can all be collected by purely playing PvP. (crucible marks for armour, crucible bounties for thorn bounty, play crucible for some of the best shotguns/snipers, buy DO rocket launcher) It can all be done in PvP. You also get plenty of strange coins and you can play ToO for a few chances of exotics every week per character! Out of curiosity, how often do you see anyone not use an exotic armour piece in ToO? If all PvP oritentated gear has permanent availability, like the Crucible and Vanguard vendors, then your point stands but this is not the case. So long as Xur sells this gear on a limited time and stock basis, this will always be the problem, and then there's the issue of non-static stat rolls on said pieces. Some exotic armour pieces could help make the difference between getting to the Lighthouse or not. Armamentarium? Voidfang Vestments? The Ram? Achlyophage Symbiote? I know the Symbiote has helped me win a round a few times when I'm the last Guardian standing, even if I don't use the fourth Golden Gun shot, I know it's there as a backup because of Ram users or extra agile Blandedancers. Always enjoy killing Bladadancers with my Golden Gun for some reason.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 8, 2015 6:48:39 GMT -5
I never said Destiny players are 'bad'. Please don't put words in my mouth. I said it is a slower game compared to AW. That is true. 100% True. you said: "Those guys would cross over and be right into the mix with the best players in the Destiny world, if not be better." which is only evidence that you did not look at top destiny players content. And simply not true And you are still missing the point on my other comment. Nope, I completely see your point, you are the one missing the points, I am reacting on other stuff than you are stating over and over again. Having everything available for tournaments is the way to go, there is nobody here who does not agree with you on that. So why do you keep throwing the same stuff out here? It doesn't matter if it takes a player 1,000 hours, 500 hours or 100 hours to get all the good stuff. It's still taking time to get everything...and it can't just be collected from playing PvP. If something takes you 100 hours that really doesn't mean anything. You have to practice the maps/mechanics etc anyway! 100 hours is nothing for pro gamers, you have acknowlegde that. 100 hours is just silly if you are talking pro gamers I got a bazillion hours into this game and i am still missing key things (like the RAM helmet for one example). Talking about skewed reasoning. How much time did you put in AFTER dlc? 20 hours? the ram is not a key thing btw, it simply isn't, there are other options which are just as valid. And it is probably banned in competitive play anyway (not sure on that). Nobody seems to be playing warlock in competitive play anyway. I played with some friends last night, one of them was missing VoidFang Vestaments, plus a number of good rocket launchers. It's loot based voidfang might be, but there are other good options you probably can get, but rockets are on yourself. 150 crucible marks for the dead orbit one, of simply reforge any one you get. Really the only thing which is remotely look based atm is exotic armour. And there are multiple valid options. You are extremely overestimating the loot part here. . Come on. And let's be real here. There's nothing more annoying than someone who has 2,000 hours played telling someone else it's 'easy' to get everything. Where's my Foxtroting Ghorn? Well? I thought it was easy to get everything? ? I hear bullshit like that, it makes me want to puke. Better read then to avoid puking. I have roughly the same playtime as you have, and I did never say it is easy to get everything, it is easy to get everything you need for pvp, those are very different things. Keep it in context.Bottom line. If a game wants to be respected or seen as being 'competitive' it has to have certain things. Private lobby mode to set up matches, LAN settings, and a playlist that allows everyone equal access to all items. You need these things. When CoD lost some of them years ago, it was dropped from MLG. When CoD added them all back, with even more enhancements (like theater, broadcast mode, highlighting players, etc..)...the esport went through the roof with ratings. So you need to start somewhere and a REAL mode that allows competitive play is item #1. As long as you have even ONE more item available to you, that i don't have....then it's not 'competitive'. What are you even arguing here? I can completely see your point, but you are extremely overstating and exagerating. That is the only thing I am correcting. I understand completely what you mean, I have a brain. I responded on your post that COD players can wreck as soon as the pick up the game, and that COD is 'harder' to play, or that you are greatly overestimating the amount of grinding needed to get top pvp gear. You just keep stating the same argument, we are not talking about this anymore. I changed my definition of 'competitive' to line it up with you guys. (even though competitive really only means you are better in the given sport/game you are talking about. So one can be competitive in everything.)The above stands true, regardless of where CoD is now versus Destiny on twitch or other media views. And as far as there being a 'small competitive community scene'......ok? Props to them. Good job on being small and hiding from everyone. Being the proverbial tallest person at a dwarf party. Your comment sounds like the CoD scene back in WaW (2009) where a few clans hid behind private matches claiming to be the best in CoD. Destiny isn't even there yet. No private match mode. COD is still there as well. It is simply not a competitive game either, and doesn't really get any media attention at all.I'm not trying to be rude here, but there's no argument to make against my point. sounds logical, because you are making points which are not up for dicussion in the first place. I personally don't think Destiny needs this direction. But if it does go that way, the above stuff has to be done. You can't have 'competitive' with 'Loot/RNG'. The two cannot exist. And any REAL competitive player worth his skills would agree. They wouldn't hide behind 2,500 hours played, claiming all the other top players have everything too, so it doesn't matter. That's excuse making.
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