wings
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Post by wings on Jul 6, 2015 11:52:21 GMT -5
I think perhaps medallions should go and you get 80% gains upon a loss. There is no point hanging around if you are on five medallions, which can be easily gotten due to joining games in progress. I agree. Quitting is still rampant. I got heavily sucked into a Game in Progress trap the other day. Mutiple GiPs over and over and over, pretty much sticking me with losses very quickly. I hit five medallions very quickly. I also started quitting games. What's the point of staying in a game, if you need a W and your bounties are done? Not much. You have to quit. I think the above is compounded what may be lack of numbers on this game. When playing this morning, I ran into the same group of opponents four times (backed out on them the last two). Yes, it was morning, but are there that few people playing? I don't think it's just the lack of numbers but, with the multiplicative bonuses for equipping IB gear and the Tempered Buff increasing later on during the week, you might be better off quitting a hopeless game even if you do not have as many as five Medallions anyway. Add to the fact that when joining a game late you are vulnerable to Supers and heavy and a respawn delay, it's probably no wonder people would rather have a game at the beginning. Plus, I joined so late in the past that, even though I got an assist and took a death, I got no Crucible Marks and no Medallion. If the game does that, then it might as well prevent players from joining until a fresh game is being made. Another issue are the bounties when players are abandoning a second cap to go for heavy, even if you can make the cap quick and get the heavy. I experienced this myself on the Burning Shrine capping B. We were losing marginally and a quick cap and me getting heavy could have so easily made a difference since I was the highest scorer on the side. So after I didn't get the second heavy ammo drop I left. I think I calculated a while ago that actually winning the match will give you more XP than the bounty does so if teammates are placing bounty completion above winning, then it just adds to the grind and annoyance. I have no idea why the matchmaking is the way it is but I can play MW2 today and get nearly everyone from my country and barely come across the same person in a whole day, but in Trials and Iron Banner this doesn't seem to be the case. If the game is having to pull players from across a whole continent during peak times to fill lobbies then something is wrong, and latency usually suffers as a result. I assume the same happens with you where you get people from further afar more frequently than in other games.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 6, 2015 12:12:35 GMT -5
The game has been very VERY laggy at times this weekend. My guess is MM can't find groups in proximity, so it pools people from to remote of locations. Then you get more lag. Which is one of the reasons threads like these get a bit dumb, when the debate breaks down into the nuances of having an extra bullet's worth of protection. With the lag I am seeing these games, ....it just doesn't matter. Radiance vs Radiant Skin, what does it matter. It seems like a 1/3 of my shots are registering hundreds of milliseconds after hits anyways.
I think right now bounties are worth more than winning. A base win is 50xp. A bounty is 100xp. So getting bounties gives twice the reward as winning. Isn't that how it works, or is my math wrong? But if i am right, is it any wonder people go play for those? I play for them. Even though you will get most of the bounties done just showing up and playing, some of them you do have to play like a puss. The 10-kill bounty, you need to back off. The LMG spree bounty, you need to back off. Even the melee kill bounty, I tend to be a bit more of a douchebag with this one, crouching to wait for people to walk by. All these affect gameplay. And Bungie just doesn't learn.
The heavy ammo thing baffles me. If you are behind a flag, ...do the math. It makes more sense to send two people to cap that 2nd flag. You come out ahead, once all the heavy ammo goes flying around.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 6, 2015 12:39:17 GMT -5
Grouped up ppl doesn't mean anything imho, I have been grouped up last IB and collected 5 medals in a row. It are often pretty shitty pvp (raid) players who just team up and go into iron banner because they did all the PvE content of the week already. AFK is just bad karma imho, as it is very annoying if your teammates do it.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jul 6, 2015 13:12:18 GMT -5
All the bonuses apply to medallions as well as strait wins, though. Of course it also depends on how quickly you drop a losing match. If you drop late you're only shaving a couple of minutes and probably should have just finished it. If it's apparent that your team is bad right at the start and you drop early then maybe it is worth it.
Personally I just pickup the bounties and then try to at least give myself a chance to complete them while playing to win. I don't start specifically going for bounties until I've got a few that are just stubborn and don't want to get completed on their own... (Usually MG and 10 kill streak, although sometimes I have a happy accident and complete them just in the course of playing.)
Bounties are definitely worth too much rep compared to just playing. It would also be nice to see some sort of performance based reward. Maybe give the MVP based on score a bonus.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jul 6, 2015 13:27:01 GMT -5
I think right now bounties are worth more than winning. A base win is 50xp. A bounty is 100xp. So getting bounties gives twice the reward as winning. Isn't that how it works, or is my math wrong? But if i am right, is it any wonder people go play for those? I play for them. Even though you will get most of the bounties done just showing up and playing, some of them you do have to play like a puss. The 10-kill bounty, you need to back off. The LMG spree bounty, you need to back off. Even the melee kill bounty, I tend to be a bit more of a douchebag with this one, crouching to wait for people to walk by. All these affect gameplay. And Bungie just doesn't learn. Oh I'm not sure why I've miscalculated there. That said, there were times when in the past where I've felt the emphasis on 'playing for bounties' rather than letting them complete by playing normally actually resulted in less IB rep gains over time because of the decreased effectiveness in the game. I usually struggle with the melee kills on my Gunslinger because the throwing knife doesn't count as a melee. So I usually get this bounty done on my Sunsinger since I use Claws of Ahamkara as they give me two OHK melees. For the LMG spree bounty wait for all the rockets to be fired and then go to town, then try to flank the enemy by going through corridors where them firing rockets may be harmful to them. I use my Corrective Measure for this.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 6, 2015 13:47:11 GMT -5
All the bonuses apply to medallions as well as strait wins, though. Of course it also depends on how quickly you drop a losing match. If you drop late you're only shaving a couple of minutes and probably should have just finished it. If it's apparent that your team is bad right at the start and you drop early then maybe it is worth it. Personally I just pickup the bounties and then try to at least give myself a chance to complete them while playing to win. I don't start specifically going for bounties until I've got a few that are just stubborn and don't want to get completed on their own... (Usually MG and 10 kill streak, although sometimes I have a happy accident and complete them just in the course of playing.) Bounties are definitely worth too much rep compared to just playing. It would also be nice to see some sort of performance based reward. Maybe give the MVP based on score a bonus. I play like you do. I typically just play the first four or five games just to win. Then afterwards, start looking at what I need to do. If needed, make some exotic armor adjustments or something. That said, I would be lying if I said I am not aware of the LMG & 10-kill bounties. For example, if I sense I am kind of deep into the 10-kill, I play off the flags, defensively, ..ie, play like a pussy. Fortunately, I have gotten the 10-kill bounty done quickly in every one of my sessions so far this Iron Banner. So I haven't had to do this that much.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 6, 2015 13:51:14 GMT -5
IMHO IB is OK as is. Sure, it has plenty of issues, but tweaking them could introduce more issues.
The goal here is to get players to actively play PvP, with rewards as carrots. The idea here is that: in order to get the rewards (EL being the most important one at the moment) the players who normally don't like PvP have to invest significant time, and while doing that hopefully they will grow to like PvP a bit more, or hate it a bit less.
If each loss can earn XP, then you'll see nothing but AFKers. The medallion system at least ensures that the AFKers can't benefit beyond 5 losses.
The large XP gain from bounties serves as extra incentive to get players to at least stay active, and most of them encourage movements than camping.
etc.
Is the current situation of IB ideal? Far from it of course for PvP oriented players, as pretty much determined by its design goal (of luring non PvP players to taste PvP).
However, looks like the situation has improved since the arrival of ToO. We finally have a game mode / venue that rewards performance, and now players have an incentive to play Crucible for the purpose of practicing and improving skills, not just to earn loot and/or complete bounties. For the first time since Destiny launch, I find myself interested in getting better at Destiny PvP, instead of just wanting to get a particular reward.
My main gripe with Destiny remains to be this - the general PvP environment is sub optimal: 30 FPS, complete lack of dedicated servers, horrible lags from time to time, lack of competitive experience, etc. ToO might be a good start to address some of these, in order to have an opinion though I'll have to experience it first.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 6, 2015 13:52:06 GMT -5
Grouped up ppl doesn't mean anything imho, I have been grouped up last IB and collected 5 medals in a row. It are often pretty shitty pvp (raid) players who just team up and go into iron banner because they did all the PvE content of the week already. AFK is just bad karma imho, as it is very annoying if your teammates do it. I don't believe in Karma though. And it's not my mess anyways, you know? I get dumped into a 6,000 to 14,000 shitfest, why go beat my head into the wall? Especially if my bounties are done. Those people are losing for a reason. And the probable cause is 1) they won't cap a flag, 2) they are playing for bounties, or 3) they are sniping. Regardless of which, they are idiots. They don't deserve help. I'll just park my character in a corner and go do one of the dozens of other things that need done in my house. When the game ends in a few minutes, collect my medallion and move on.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jul 6, 2015 14:03:44 GMT -5
If each loss can earn XP, then you'll see nothing but AFKers. Just boot them based on movement in-game so they need to have covered some distance on the maps over a specific time period so running into a wall with the triggers held does not work. I don't know. I forget what Treyarch did to appease the anti-tactical loitering crowd for the Ghost/UAV thing but something like that? Make the end-game rewards better and base it on performance with a criteria so it's not just the best players always getting the loot, just those that participated well. I'd play Iron Banner beyond rank goals if I could have a decent chance at a Radagast's Fury from dropping etc. My main gripe with Destiny remains to be this: the general PvP environment is sub optimal: 30 FPS, complete lack of dedicated servers, horrible lags from time to time, lack of competitive experience, etc. ToO might be a good start to address some of these, in order to have an opinion though I'll have to experience it first. You mean unsymmetrical maps, no spawn swaps, and everyone spamming Thorn, TLW, Blink, level advantages enabled, Final Round sniper rifles is competitive? Add in babysitting features like permanent radar and sniper glint, you have a game mode as competitive as Mario Kart. In all seriousness, I don't think ToO can be considered competitive unless Bungie makes a fourth subclass for each character that can only be used for Trials. This is the closest equivalent to what Treyarch did with League Play in Black Ops 2 and it gets around the RNG issue of having the top gear to start with.
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hebbnh
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Post by hebbnh on Jul 6, 2015 14:05:58 GMT -5
Grouped up ppl doesn't mean anything imho, I have been grouped up last IB and collected 5 medals in a row. It are often pretty shitty pvp (raid) players who just team up and go into iron banner because they did all the PvE content of the week already. AFK is just bad karma imho, as it is very annoying if your teammates do it. I don't believe in Karma though. And it's not my mess anyways, you know? I get dumped into a 6,000 to 14,000 shitfest, why go beat my head into the wall? Especially if my bounties are done. Those people are losing for a reason. And the probable cause is 1) they won't cap a flag, 2) they are playing for bounties, or 3) they are sniping. Regardless of which, they are idiots. They don't deserve help. I'll just park my character in a corner and go do one of the dozens of other things that need done in my house. When the game ends in a few minutes, collect my medallion and move on. I'd say #3 there is extremely map dependent and player dependent. 1 good sniper on Shores of Time can hold C by themselves more or less while the rest of the team can focus on B. Blind Watch is similar in that a sniper at the low heavy spawn can hold B fairly easily (anyone coming through the upper stairs is an easy headshot) and they can also rotate around to help with C. There are plenty of other scenarios where a good sniper is a useful asset as long as they're not sitting in the back of the map doing nothing, and will abandon sniping to help cap if necessary. I guess maybe those players few and far between, but sniper=idiot is an extremely shortsighted viewpoint.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 6, 2015 14:19:34 GMT -5
That's not a dig at anyone I know. Everyone I know plays to help win.
I say that just as general observation I have made from years of playing FPS games, in regards to the behavior of random teammates who snipe. IMHO, not trying to be a dick here, but I know what I see. If I had some time-machine game recorder, and looked at the past 44,000 people that fit this sniping description, probably only a small handful ever helped. And yes, you are right...if they are sitting on some situational spots, they can accidently be of some help, right place at the right time sort of thing (Shores of Time) But again, 'right place, right time' stuff only occurs a few times in any game. The rest of the time they are worthless.
Again, this is IB. This is like the dumb of the dumb in regards to FPS'ers. If you are sniping and letting opponents take a flag lead on you, ...you obviously don't. That being the case, why go repeatedly die on the B flag...while some idiot sits in the far corner staring down one sightline, waiting minutes to get the perfect kill? I'm not going to help them. Not worth the effort. I'll go let my dogs out or do something else. My blood pressure stays lower as a bonus too.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jul 6, 2015 15:26:44 GMT -5
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa campers
Devs put anti tactical loitering features in games.
waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa hand holding
;3
(I'm just being patronizing... everybody is welcome to their own opinions on what features are welcome or unwelcome in games. Personally I lean more towards casual friendly and fun... IE less infuriating to play. Maybe that's hand holding. I don't care. It's still fair so it's completely valid.)
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 6, 2015 15:29:11 GMT -5
You mean unsymmetrical maps, no spawn swaps, and everyone spamming Thorn, TLW, Blink, level advantages enabled, Final Round sniper rifles is competitive? Add in babysitting features like permanent radar and sniper glint, you have a game mode as competitive as Mario Kart. In all seriousness, I don't think ToO can be considered competitive unless Bungie makes a fourth subclass for each character that can only be used for Trials. This is the closest equivalent to what Treyarch did with League Play in Black Ops 2 and it gets around the RNG issue of having the top gear to start with. I am not expecting Destiny to reach anywhere near MLG level kinda competitiveness. At this point I just want the PvP experience to have something interesting to offer beyond simply getting loot. In that sense, I don't mind weapons/abilities/armors/etc that give players advantage, as long as they are reasonably accessible (say through looting, Xur, reforge) to all players. In the end everybody converges to similar loadout, so it is still a relatively leveled playing field. ToO at least is somewhat performance based, which gives me incentive to play more Crucible and become better at Destiny sandbox (be it Thorn headshots, Blink Melee, Slide shotty, or whatever funky "skills" that only useful in this game). I hope it is successful in attracting more players to PvP, and then in turn push Bungie to invest more into PvP.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jul 6, 2015 15:44:11 GMT -5
I will take issue with the Mario Kart comparison as I have in the past. Mario Kart literally rewards players who are further behind in a race with both better weapons and more speed. The game literally stacks the deck to keep all players competitive to the very end. Destiny is certainly a more casual/noob friendly game than more competitively minded fair, but you don't do 10% more damage because your team is down by 1000 points or such shenanigans. And even supers are doled out more to players that are actively earning kills and such. Not every game needs to be a laser honed skillometer. We have the likes of CS GO, Shootmania, and other games I can't name because I'm not into them... for that.
Not that I'm opposed to having a more competitively minded playlist, custom private lobbies, or dedicated servers. I'm all for those things. I just wouldn't benefit much from them other than the servers.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 6, 2015 23:17:25 GMT -5
It is done. I can now wipe the stench of urine off me, of doing multiple days of Iron Banner.. All three characters to level 5. Six ELs. I finally have two characters to level 34, with both having the ability to mix & match all their exotic combos at lv 34.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jul 7, 2015 5:24:23 GMT -5
I will take issue with the Mario Kart comparison as I have in the past. Mario Kart literally rewards players who are further behind in a race with both better weapons and more speed. The game literally stacks the deck to keep all players competitive to the very end. Destiny is certainly a more casual/noob friendly game than more competitively minded fair, but you don't do 10% more damage because your team is down by 1000 points or such shenanigans. And even supers are doled out more to players that are actively earning kills and such. Not every game needs to be a laser honed skillometer. We have the likes of CS GO, Shootmania, and other games I can't name because I'm not into them... for that. Not that I'm opposed to having a more competitively minded playlist, custom private lobbies, or dedicated servers. I'm all for those things. I just wouldn't benefit much from them other than the servers. Okay then I'm not sure what the best comparison to Destiny is for a racing game, perhaps Forza with ABS and road markers/driving assistance (forget its proper name) on? tactical loitering is a legitimate strategy and any anti-tactical loitering methods used to hinder this beyond fair map design is a way of unbalancing the guns themselves. Before you jump the gun and think I'm a camper, why is it that everyone on Reddit are complaining about Blink and shotguns in Destiny? The maps are too small. I've taken non-lethal damage in Iron Banner whilst capping my home 'flag' and I immediately ran to cap it as soon as the game has started with everyone else. Exactly why is it possible for an enemy to be able to harm the enemy before they can cap their own home flag right at the start of the match? This happened on Cauldron, Twilight Gap and one other but I forget the other map. Not only that but the painting of players who are stationary after a certain time seems a direct contradiction to those who might use Patience and Time. You are giving up using Thorn, The Last Word and Hawkmoon but your combat plan is gimped right off the bat there and special ammo was decreased ages ago too. Supers are just killstreaks but, even though those who get more kills get their Super faster, this is actually anti-competitive as it favours certain subclasses more. This also means those who are tactically placed to defend a zone are probably not getting enough credit for objective play, just compare Destiny to Treyarch's scoring in Black Ops 2. You can get your Super up for playing less objective, by straight out kills, rather than guard an objective and get fewer kills. There will be instances where the latter is better for the team because you may end up losing the objective to the other team. If Trials of Osiris was more 'Counter Strike'-esque I wouldn't mind so I don't know if this is because I used to play Counter Strike and third person shooters or something. The rest of the game can be left alone.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 7, 2015 5:31:39 GMT -5
You mean unsymmetrical maps, no spawn swaps, and everyone spamming Thorn, TLW, Blink, level advantages enabled, Final Round sniper rifles is competitive? Add in babysitting features like permanent radar and sniper glint, you have a game mode as competitive as Mario Kart. In all seriousness, I don't think ToO can be considered competitive unless Bungie makes a fourth subclass for each character that can only be used for Trials. This is the closest equivalent to what Treyarch did with League Play in Black Ops 2 and it gets around the RNG issue of having the top gear to start with. The maps are not as bad as allot of ppl make it. I often prefered to actually spawn on the inside of this weeks map for example, only to read that the outside spawn in "OP" later. I had this with allot of maps. It is very dependant of tactics, and which way you go. If your opponent can be faster at X and have more cover in that lane, why go to that lane in the first place? Thorn, TLW are actually very competative, ppl use those terms wrong. The most competitive games have everybody using the exact same stuff, because then it is all about what you do, instead of what you use. It is not fun, and it needs fixing, but there is nothing more competitive than everybody using the same weapons. This is also completely non RNG dependant, because the best weapons are very easy to get actually. And before you say the thorn bounty is hard, if you can't get a thorn, you probably don't belong in Trials. Final rounding is cheap, agreed, but both teams can use it if they want to. It is not anti-competitive. It is cheap that only some players have acces to it though. I hope they remove it asap. Trials is very competitive if you ask me, you should try it sometimes, RNG is of minimal influence with the current meta (Buy rocket from DO, get matador/party crasher/judgement and reroll a few times for shot package/get thorn or TLW).
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 7, 2015 5:36:30 GMT -5
After reading all this I guess we can agree that the biggest problems with Iron banner are:
1) Connection! They should really look into this. Although I seem to get allot better matches than you guys, maybe bungie netcoding works better in EU than US. I also NEVER get put up against the same players twice... (unless there is actually no new lobby made, then it is logical) 2) The way people actually play Iron banner. They AFK, leave, and are bad team players and are filthy in general. This is clearly the result of all the PvE "cheese" players who do everything for rewards making their way into PvP.
1. is about time bungie fixed, or at least looks into. 2. is something which is really really hard to fix, because players will find a way to abuse a system one way or another.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jul 7, 2015 5:43:48 GMT -5
You mean unsymmetrical maps, no spawn swaps, and everyone spamming Thorn, TLW, Blink, level advantages enabled, Final Round sniper rifles is competitive? Add in babysitting features like permanent radar and sniper glint, you have a game mode as competitive as Mario Kart. In all seriousness, I don't think ToO can be considered competitive unless Bungie makes a fourth subclass for each character that can only be used for Trials. This is the closest equivalent to what Treyarch did with League Play in Black Ops 2 and it gets around the RNG issue of having the top gear to start with. I am not expecting Destiny to reach anywhere near MLG level kinda competitiveness. At this point I just want the PvP experience to have something interesting to offer beyond simply getting loot. In that sense, I don't mind weapons/abilities/armors/etc that give players advantage, as long as they are reasonably accessible (say through looting, Xur, reforge) to all players. In the end everybody converges to similar loadout, so it is still a relatively leveled playing field. ToO at least is somewhat performance based, which gives me incentive to play more Crucible and become better at Destiny sandbox (be it Thorn headshots, Blink Melee, Slide shotty, or whatever funky "skills" that only useful in this game). I hope it is successful in attracting more players to PvP, and then in turn push Bungie to invest more into PvP. Relying on Xur for accessibility might make players after the Ram laugh. He's only round during the weekends for 48 hours so his stock can be missed by many. This probably explains the overuse of Thorn because eventually, if you do enough bounties, the Vanguard Mentor Missive will eventually give you an option to earn it, unlike The Last Word where you might have to wait an age for it to be sold again or get lucky enough with the various exotic chances the game offers. You may not mind armour giving players an advantage but imagine someone new joining the game wondering why he's getting spammed by grenades in Trials? Oh it's because he doesn't have an exotic armour piece that regenerates grenade energy upon a revive. Another issue with the loot based game, is that I can just use my Secret Handshake that has Hammer Forged and Shot Package in Trials. New and older players may not be able to improve their combat effectiveness with shotguns since Hammer Forged was taken out of the possible perks on them. And with so many maps that favour shotguns over fusion and sniper rifles, I'd say this is pretty important. Same with rocket launchers, the Vanguard don't sell one so a player might have to pray to RNGesus to get one so he or she can compete in the heavy rounds in Trials. True, Dead Orbit and Future War Cult sell one each but neither has tracking, which might be preferred on some maps instead of grenade and horseshoes (though I can't think any of any), and Xur probably won't sell the Gjallarhorn again so you might have to hope for the Truth to show up because I doubt the Dragon's Breath is going to cut it. If we cannot ascend legendaries further, and exotics can be, then this problem will be even bigger. Even in vanilla Crucible when the game states "level advantages disabled" is false. I will be using my Super far more frequently than a low level Guardian due to the faster cooldowns and the ability to equip exotics can help do that. I'm not sure what's competitive about that. I don't think I've ever seen a low level Guardian finish top of the leaderboard in vanilla Crucible when everyone else is of a high level and I doubt it's because they are always new. They can easily be starting a new character, having two high level ones already etc.
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wings
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Post by wings on Jul 7, 2015 6:07:53 GMT -5
You mean unsymmetrical maps, no spawn swaps, and everyone spamming Thorn, TLW, Blink, level advantages enabled, Final Round sniper rifles is competitive? Add in babysitting features like permanent radar and sniper glint, you have a game mode as competitive as Mario Kart. In all seriousness, I don't think ToO can be considered competitive unless Bungie makes a fourth subclass for each character that can only be used for Trials. This is the closest equivalent to what Treyarch did with League Play in Black Ops 2 and it gets around the RNG issue of having the top gear to start with. The maps are not as bad as allot of ppl make it. I often prefered to actually spawn on the inside of this weeks map for example, only to read that the outside spawn in "OP" later. I had this with allot of maps. It is very dependant of tactics, and which way you go. If your opponent can be faster at X and have more cover in that lane, why go to that lane in the first place? Thorn, TLW are actually very competative, ppl use those terms wrong. The most competitive games have everybody using the exact same stuff, because then it is all about what you do, instead of what you use. It is not fun, and it needs fixing, but there is nothing more competitive than everybody using the same weapons. This is also completely non RNG dependant, because the best weapons are very easy to get actually. And before you say the thorn bounty is hard, if you can't get a thorn, you probably don't belong in Trials. Final rounding is cheap, agreed, but both teams can use it if they want to. It is not anti-competitive. It is cheap that only some players have acces to it though. I hope they remove it asap. Trials is very competitive if you ask me, you should try it sometimes, RNG is of minimal influence with the current meta (Buy rocket from DO, get matador/party crasher/judgement and reroll a few times for shot package/get thorn or TLW). Final Round can be altered easily enough so people who spent resources on the sniper rifles, aren't completely 'defrauded' as I doubt players will be refunded their resources if Final Round was removed completely. One way to trigger the perk is for the the perk to only trigger upon every preceding round to have landed a critical hit and/or a kill for PvP? That way people without the Black Hammer have a use for Final Round when using it against bullet sponge bosses. You're not going to use Firefly, Grenadier or anything else for bosses besides may be Outlaw (I think Rodeo is only a tier 1 perk). I'm more 'annoyed' that snipers waste their first two shots for the OHK bodyshot opportunity than being one shotted itself, so if they have to get kills with all their rounds before, it wouldn't bother me so much. Sniper rifles are supposed to be exemplars of marksmanship, so improving a OHK body multiplier based on missed shots, is absurd. As for the Thorn bounty, its difficulty is relative to the void weapons at your disposal. While I'd agree that players who cannot do the Thorn bounty should not bother with Trials, you will be surprised by the amount of bad players I come across in Iron Banner sporting the flawless Trials emblem. I have lost count how many times I'm tempted to ask them how they got that emblem to start with. No, Thorn and TLW are competitive but if you don't have either then don't bother in Trials. The game mode is itself anti-competitive, not the weapons people use. In Black Ops 2 for League Play, everything was unlocked for good reason. You can earn Thorn after RNG has decided you have done enough bounties but it's not like you can just buy any weapon in the game at any time. The Last Word may not be sold for quite a while ago and not everyone will have access to running through all the exotic chance hoops the game throws at you. I have tried Trials, went 7-3 then 8-2 on Cauldron and I got the Anubis helmet I was after, along with a Jewel of Osiris from the gold package. I never use the Jewel of Osiris though, but a no exotic playlist I would give it a try, same with The Chance (FWC hand cannon) as mine has Field Scout.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 7, 2015 6:17:48 GMT -5
You seem to be making arguments that loot should not matter in a game which is all about loot... You are playing a game which is a combination between RPG and shooter... There are several other games which do it without loot, this is destiny, and without the loot system (and probably raids) it would not have been such a success. And even though it is actually a RPG (in which loot should matter!) most of those arguments are purely circumstantial anyway, the only thing you have a valid point is with exotic armour imho.
The new range increase perk which reduces stability is just as good as hammer forged. Using an exotic rocket launcher is not competitive anyway at this moment. And you can reforge ANY rocket into the perks you want... NM has a tracking launcher, but tracking sucks. Truth is better than Gjallar anyway so I don't see why you bring it up.
You seem to be misunderstanding the word competitive imho. Being competitive in a RPG game, means getting the best gear and the best skills to use that gear. That is what ToO is. We are not playing counter strike here... So can we please stop those arguments? Destiny will never be (AND SHOULD NEVER BE!) a game where loot does not matter.
It is like playing COD with all perks and class load outs removed, that is not COD, that is simly another game.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 8:23:17 GMT -5
You seem to be making arguments that loot should not matter in a game which is all about loot... You are playing a game which is a combination between RPG and shooter... There are several other games which do it without loot, this is destiny, and without the loot system (and probably raids) it would not have been such a success. And even though it is actually a RPG (in which loot should matter!) most of those arguments are purely circumstantial anyway, the only thing you have a valid point is with exotic armour imho. The new range increase perk which reduces stability is just as good as hammer forged. Using an exotic rocket launcher is not competitive anyway at this moment. And you can reforge ANY rocket into the perks you want... NM has a tracking launcher, but tracking sucks. Truth is better than Gjallar anyway so I don't see why you bring it up. You seem to be misunderstanding the word competitive imho. Being competitive in a RPG game, means getting the best gear and the best skills to use that gear. That is what ToO is. We are not playing counter strike here... So can we please stop those arguments? Destiny will never be (AND SHOULD NEVER BE!) a game where loot does not matter. It is like playing COD with all perks and class load outs removed, that is not COD, that is simly another game. Fair enough,...but then can we never ever ever EVER read a comment on this particular board from anyone, talking about being 'good' in this game? Because if what you say is true about this being a loot based RPG hybrid FPS (and you are right), ...then that CANNOT exist with 'competitive'. At least competitive in a sense of "I JUST BEAT YOU IN ____(ToO, IB, etc..) Competitive in a FPS way. When people talk about being good, kicking ass, we all know the context of what they are saying. They are using it in a pure FPS kick ass sort of way. They aren't using it in a loot/RPG sort of way. No one ever says they are good, because they logged 120 hours last month, getting more stuff than other people. You know this is true. And therein lies the rub. People want to say they are "FPS GOOD', while falling back on the "It's a Loot/RPG game'. You can't. That ties into the "Mario Kart" analogy. Mannon is sort of right in his defense of Destiny. Mario Kart is based on helping those behind catch back up, making the game more competitive that way. Destiny doesn't do that in the actual game itself, the ten min IB/ToO/Crucible match. But Destiny does do it in the overall PvP gaming process. It basically helps bad players stay ahead, by substituting 'time played' for actual skill. It protects those players. You put in 30 hours a week playing this game, week after week....you will get more 'stuff' than a person who plays 4 hours a week. You will then have a HUGE advantage over that person when playing in Destiny pseudo competitive PvP environment. That is reality. That is a form of Mario Karting. It's also something Destiny players don't want to hear, especially those who have grinded the hours to get the good stuff. They want to hear they are PvP Gods. And they very well might be, but their Godlike ability is more in logging hours, to get advantaqes over those who don't. As I said in my original point, you can't play it both ways. The above is something that is not going to be well received, but that's how I feel. And I say that as someone who has been on both sides of the fence. I have been the guy who logged a bazillion hours to get the advantage over those who don't. And recently in IB, I was the guy who hasn't had time to play long hours...and was forced to be at a competitive disadvantage. And I was playing at a Level 33. Not having the Ram helmet, etc... All of this put me at some 'x'% disadvantage. You can't play it both ways. People need to decide. And that doesn't make the game bad. It's just different. It's a loot/RPG.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 7, 2015 11:00:06 GMT -5
You seem to be making arguments that loot should not matter in a game which is all about loot... You are playing a game which is a combination between RPG and shooter... There are several other games which do it without loot, this is destiny, and without the loot system (and probably raids) it would not have been such a success. And even though it is actually a RPG (in which loot should matter!) most of those arguments are purely circumstantial anyway, the only thing you have a valid point is with exotic armour imho. The new range increase perk which reduces stability is just as good as hammer forged. Using an exotic rocket launcher is not competitive anyway at this moment. And you can reforge ANY rocket into the perks you want... NM has a tracking launcher, but tracking sucks. Truth is better than Gjallar anyway so I don't see why you bring it up. You seem to be misunderstanding the word competitive imho. Being competitive in a RPG game, means getting the best gear and the best skills to use that gear. That is what ToO is. We are not playing counter strike here... So can we please stop those arguments? Destiny will never be (AND SHOULD NEVER BE!) a game where loot does not matter. It is like playing COD with all perks and class load outs removed, that is not COD, that is simly another game. Fair enough,...but then can we never ever ever EVER read a comment on this particular board from anyone, talking about being 'good' in this game? Because if what you say is true about this being a loot based RPG hybrid FPS (and you are right), ...then that CANNOT exist with 'competitive'. At least competitive in a sense of "I JUST BEAT YOU IN ____(ToO, IB, etc..) Competitive in a FPS way. When people talk about being good, kicking ass, we all know the context of what they are saying. They are using it in a pure FPS kick ass sort of way. They aren't using it in a loot/RPG sort of way. No one ever says they are good, because they logged 120 hours last month, getting more stuff than other people. You know this is true. And therein lies the rub. People want to say they are "FPS GOOD', while falling back on the "It's a Loot/RPG game'. You can't. That ties into the "Mario Kart" analogy. Mannon is sort of right in his defense of Destiny. Mario Kart is based on helping those behind catch back up, making the game more competitive that way. Destiny doesn't do that in the actual game itself, the ten min IB/ToO/Crucible match. But Destiny does do it in the overall PvP gaming process. It basically helps bad players stay ahead, by substituting 'time played' for actual skill. It protects those players. You put in 30 hours a week playing this game, week after week....you will get more 'stuff' than a person who plays 4 hours a week. You will then have a HUGE advantage over that person when playing in Destiny pseudo competitive PvP environment. That is reality. That is a form of Mario Karting. It's also something Destiny players don't want to hear, especially those who have grinded the hours to get the good stuff. They want to hear they are PvP Gods. And they very well might be, but their Godlike ability is more in logging hours, to get advantaqes over those who don't. As I said in my original point, you can't play it both ways. The above is something that is not going to be well received, but that's how I feel. And I say that as someone who has been on both sides of the fence. I have been the guy who logged a bazillion hours to get the advantage over those who don't. And recently in IB, I was the guy who hasn't had time to play long hours...and was forced to be at a competitive disadvantage. And I was playing at a Level 33. Not having the Ram helmet, etc... All of this put me at some 'x'% disadvantage. You can't play it both ways. People need to decide. And that doesn't make the game bad. It's just different. It's a loot/RPG. + 1 Destiny's primary attraction is looting. Whatever discussion we have, we need to keep this at the center of consideration. When talking competitive in Destiny Crucible context, I am specifically focusing on the subset of players who have been actively playing and trying to accumulate whatever the "best" thing to use in PvP: people with the best PvP exotics, the best exotic armor that we can get our hands on, reforged weapons with "god-rolls", etc. In other words, us People who don't like looting, either did not bother with the game or had already quitted long time ago. On that premise, we can reasonably assume that this subset of players are on the relatively even playing field weapon/gear wise. Sure, 1 or 2 things might be missing (not at level 34 yet, don't have Ram, don't have the perfect Int/Dis/Str numbers on our armor set, etc), which serve as the primary driver to keep us playing (e.g.: NF for chance of exotic armor to drop, IB / PoE 34 for EL, PoE 32 for Armor Core, etc). Come to think of it, we constantly look for the next thing to acquire, to give us another incentive to play the game. Before the introduction of ToO however, the sole purpose is to loot. I have zero desire to get better at Destiny's sandbox, because it does not matter. So I never bothered to play regular Crucible. With ToO in the play, I now have much greater interest to get better at Destiny's sandbox. I am definitely not alone in this matter, because I have seen many of my friends having similar attitude change towards PvP too. Instead of just doing boring PvE bounties, I see them playing Crucible. I think that this is a very positive change for the sake of the game's well being, and I would like to see the trend continue and Bungie investing more into the PvP experience.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 7, 2015 11:18:13 GMT -5
Making the best loadout is also a skill in its own right. But indeed, if we are talking who is the best FPS person, destiny is surely not the game to test it in! That does not mean that one cannot say he just owned somebody else, of that he is better than somebody else, if you just beat a thorn user with a thorn gunfight, why would you not have done better? That is like saying a COD player with the best weapon in the game can never be better than anybody else unless they use the same weapon. I have been watching quite some streamers lately and even though they are using OP weapons and probably the best loadouts available, I think nobody in their right mind could say they are not good (in an FPS kind of way)... But appart from that extreme argument you mention, I agree with you, destiny is not the best game to measure dicksize on twitch skills alone, it still can be done though. (btw, the hours argument is always a kinda crappy one imho, I understand what you mean completely, but logging in ridiculous hours is actually what makes you a better player as well) With the current meta and in ToO it gets pretty close to that though, because everybody is using the same things more or less. Which actually makes it quite competitive right now I guess, because the only thing to differentiate is skill (and connection as always). This is not a good thing imho, because there are other games to do that. But even IF there would a broad scala of different guns used and stuff, I would still say it can be quite competitive, but not in a twitch skill only way, that is completely true. It sucks imho, because this should actually be a loot based game, but players are using less diverse guns than in COD nowadays (Maybe making it more competitive by accident ...) The developers should get out of their lazy chair and throw some balance around. I wouldn't even care if they introduce another OP weapon type, at least make it different, we have had 7 months of thorn right now. But what I always hoped for in destiny was a shooter with ALLOT of different guns and perks and stuff (check), where everything is balanced (not check). Now buff some of those worthless perks, and look at the TTK charts, and give us that game bungie! p.s. I have never heard anybody say they are good when beating a AR with a thorn though (extreme example). Seems to be used more as an excuse from the dying side than a brag from the killing side. Destiny is not really a game where allot of players are bragging in my experience.
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wittyscorpion
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Post by wittyscorpion on Jul 7, 2015 11:29:17 GMT -5
qupie, while you are here I have a few loadout questions for you: 1) Why is Ram considered the best exotic of Warlock? I tried Ram on Voidwalker briefly during last week's IB and my first impression was not as blown away as I hoped , so I must be missing something. In order for the Life Steal to work I'll need to kill with melee, and that does not come easy at least for me. Is it just the extra armor that is highly desirable, and that alone is worth using even on Sunsinger? If that's the case, then Voidfang is probably still more preferable in IB / Regular Crucible? 2) What do you suggest for Voidwalker setup?
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 11:37:49 GMT -5
To Qupie
- No one brags on this board, but I see it on Reddit. I think this board has a slightly older age, making it better.
- I hardly ever use the thorn. I use the Red Death
- I don't really find making the best loadout a skill per se. It's more a function of having the time (and willingness) to sift through endless pages of Reddit and other info dump places. If you have 5th grade reading skills...you can master the 'art' of making a good loadout. Use this gun, that gun, and roll for these loadouts. The true skill here? It's simply time. Having the time to put into playing this game a lot so one can accumulate the things you need, to be on a level playing field.
^^^ and the above is ultimately my point. You cannot ever truly have "Competive & Loot/RPG" in the same sentence. The two do not mesh. Witty made an ok attempt to try and make it work...but I can't fully agree with him there. Getting to his assumption that the only people who play the ToO and stuff like IB, are only those who have invested the time, so by default, they are all on an equal playing field. That might work for brief spurts, but not on a whole imho. Take myself for an example. I took just a few weeks break after HoW came out....and I was instantly behind. I was NOT on a level playing field doing the past TWO Iron Banners. In fact, I was horribly gimped the first one, and somewhat weaker this past IB. That's not being competitive. And if I go into the ToO tomorrow, I wouldn't have as many tools available as others (note - I'm not complaining about my status the last two IB's. I was playing for EL, not results)
Competitive is when both sides are playing by the same rules, with the same tools available (assuming no cheating) NFL, NBA, MLB, UFC, Tour de France, NASCAR, even MLG stuff with CoD. Well, to some degree. A case could be made some leagues have unequal access to higher revenues, allowing them to buy more players. This is the MLB example. But for the most part, that's how it works.
And again...I'm not saying Destiny needs to be competitive. Maybe Witty is right, and this is the direction it needs to go? I don't know. I don't think it does.
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mannon
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Post by mannon on Jul 7, 2015 11:39:20 GMT -5
Actually I think we have both in Destiny. Yes loot is a key ingredient to the game. It is both the motivator as a reward and the means of optaining greater rewards and accessing more activities and content. To a large extent you are what you own. But that's not to say it is the only factor. Even in Iron Banana or ToO where your loadout is super important it's far from the only factor. You also have to be able to actually play an FPS with at least some skill. You'll get rewards even if you don't have any skill. So what? Why not reward players for time played? They paid their money same as the better players. Better players get more and faster rewards, but they don't need a monopoly on rewards.
Besides that, the loot advantage also caps out. Once you've got Thorn, (or Red Death, TLW, even Hawkmoon), level 34 with a decent pvp exotic, a god tier shotgun, and a decent PvP launcher and MG you are pretty well set. There's literally nothing else you NEED to do well in PvP, everything beyond that just gives you more options the same as hitting the level cap in CoD. To be honest it's the same shit, different name. The only difference is there's a lot more RNG. But even with that just play for long enough and any player can get to a competitive loadout, and from there it's all on them to succeed or not.
If anything I would say rather than helping bad players along by letting them eventually reach the end of progression by simply playing more hours I would say that the game holds everyone back until they do reach end game. The speed of reaching of end game is dependent mostly upon available play time, friends availability or willingness to LFG, game knowledge, RNG, and a smattering of skill.
Here's two points I see as conflicting. The idea that the progression is not competitive because just anybody can eventually get all the goodies by play time alone, and the idea that the most competitive thing would be to unlock all items for everyone for an even playing field. ;-/
As I see it the game makes it possible for anyone to reach end game and be at the top competitive tier with their items in regard to PvP. It takes time, and some luck, and the gear you get may not be what you wanted. Okay so your first top tier loadout may not be what you preferred. But you can either adapt to it and use it or just wait until you get something more to your liking. Better, more informed players with more time to play will advance quicker than the rest. So what? If a crap player can eventually get his hands and Thorn and run into ToO then... okay. But if someone who's a better FPS player wants to run off to ToO even though they don't have top tier gear yet and they get pwned by some scrub with a Thorn... well so what? They chose to play with equipment substandard in the meta game, it's not the scrub's fault. The "better" player should have played some more, got some more loot first, if they wanted an even playing field. But clearly they thought that their skill could close the gap. Honestly I would say that some skill and intelligence can actually go a long way. But if it's not enough to close the gap then why blame the game?
Destiny PvP requires both loot and some skill. You can still beat another player with skill, especially if you're outmatched by their loadout. Which is also part of the reason people dare to play with substandard loadouts. But the fact that you can have such inequality in power levels is due entirely to giving players the freedom to have and play such modes. If players want more of a level playing field they can play regular Crucible where you do quite well even with many blue's and greens. The threshhold to achieve a top tier Crucible loadout is even lower than ToO and IB.
The game requires a time investment to achieve parity with top tier loadouts... same as any other FPS with any sort of progression system. The only difference is that Destiny dares to add a RNG element to it. Ultimately, however, RNG only changes the amount of time it takes to achieve top tier loadouts and then how long it takes to achieve all top tier loadouts for the sake of variety. Six of one and a half dozen of the other if you ask me.
That's not to say I'm arguing destiny is a "competitive" game. It's not aimed at being a big tournament skillometer... to it's credit. The game is made to appeal to a wide range of players who want to play for fun, and really that's about it. Would it be nice if the game could also serve in these other ways? Sure... But is it necessary? Well, not really. I still think Bungie is short sighted in failing to better support the more competitive minded community... although ToO is at least a nod in that direction. Maybe there's more to come.
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 11:42:27 GMT -5
qupie, while you are here I have a few loadout questions for you: 1) Why is Ram considered the best exotic of Warlock? I tried Ram on Voidwalker briefly during last week's IB and my first impression was not as blown away as I hoped , so I must be missing something. In order for the Life Steal to work I'll need to kill with melee, and that does not come easy at least for me. Is it just the extra armor that is highly desirable, and that alone is worth using even on Sunsinger? If that's the case, then Voidfang is probably still more preferable in IB / Regular Crucible? 2) What do you suggest for Voidwalker setup? I think because it gives you higher base health. Your health goes from like say 200 to 225 or so? I can't remember the details. This gives you the ability to absorb an extra bullet (or two). Best of all with this, it is always on and always in play...always being used. That's the best type of perk to have on your exotic armor, isn't it? the above is the million dollar question we were all debating last week. Just how valuable is it. That extra bullet of defense. We were discussing the benefits of it just when using one's super, 'radiant skin'. In that particular case, you only benefit from it for like 30 seconds in a 10 minute game. But with the Ram, the benefit is always there the entire ten minutes of the game. Night and day difference.
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qupie
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Post by qupie on Jul 7, 2015 11:49:04 GMT -5
qupie, while you are here I have a few loadout questions for you: 1) Why is Ram considered the best exotic of Warlock? Because it lets you survive absurt things nobody else can, like: two thorn headshots (most used weapon in game) two red death headbursts two preadith revenge body shots shoulder charge (!) flux grenade (blade dancer sticky) Razors edge (blade dancer super move) and allot of other weapons you need an extra (head)shot to die.
This guy is making more and more posts we as bros should drool on: www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/3c0xwi/indepth_analysis_health_shield_armor_increased/
Here is a video which makes it look pretty rediculous:
To be fair though, I don't think it is THE best exotic in every situations for warlocks, although if I HAVE to choose one, I think the ram is the best one. Voidfang is still very good if you like to rush allot, nothing manacles is not bad either, quick revive is awesome in 3v3 modes and heart of praxic fire is great if you use your sunsinger super in an offensive non fireborn way (with fireborn voidfang is probably better to immediately get those 2 grenades).
I tried Ram on Voidwalker briefly during last week's IB and my first impression was not as blown away as I hoped , so I must be missing something. In order for the Life Steal to work I'll need to kill with melee, and that does not come easy at least for me. Is it just the extra armor that is highly desirable, and that alone is worth using even on Sunsinger? If that's the case, then Voidfang is probably still more preferable in IB / Regular Crucible? Voidfang is still a pretty decent exotic! especially is you are not a PvP pro. I die allot too, and still like to use voidfang as well. Although I have switched to RAM with voidwalker lately. One thing though, with the ram on, you only have to HIT with the ram as a voidwalker to proc the healing effect!!! That plus surviving everything stated above, it is easily one of the best exotics in the game. You have to have a max armour build with it to really benefit from it though! The reason it is quite effective on sunsinger is because the armour buff in itself is already very good, but in combination with radiant skin and fireshield it becomes ridiculous. As they don't have a panic super like nova bomb or FoH it can be quite valuable.2) What do you suggest for Voidwalker setup? Voidwalker is hard. I have switched allot on it. The problem is that allot of the things do not really boost anything THAT much.
Examples: annihilate/angry magic/the hunger. From what I read, annihilate makes your explosives 10% bigger, angry magic is not that great as far as I experienced, and the hunger makes energy drain last 8 seconds instead of 5. Energy drain itself speeds up grenade rechargy by 1.6.
Now If I look at that, it actually all seems kinda lackluster... Even though it surely can make a difference, the effects all seem not THAT great.
The same counts for the last row. Vortex mastery is a no-brainer if you use vortex nova (but I often use shatter) / bloom is very circumstantial / embrace the void was always my choice, but 1.6 just sounds so lackluster on paper. In reality though with some decent discipline, you do get almost halve a grenade back every time you hit somebody with your grenade (as long as you don't die immediately!).
In the end I most of the time go for axiom, blink, shatter, soul rip, annihilate and embrace the void.
Now don't get me wrong, voidwalker is not a underpowered subclass at all! but the talents are actually pretty balanced, and the biggest thread of the class doesn't come out of the upgrades like it is with blade dancer and sunsinger. It is the axiom, blink, fast grenade couldown and ranged melee and nova bomb which make it dangerous.
Hope I answered your questions
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Post by iw5000 on Jul 7, 2015 11:56:45 GMT -5
Qupie
What is the base health increase?
N/m...it looks like around 10% or so. 210 to 230. 200 to 220.
One thing to add to the video, while a Titan magnetic grenade stuff on a RAM wearer will kill it....it won't kill the Ram wearer, if the grenade tosser is a level lower. I found this out a few times this past weekend. All in all, this is a huge benefit. Hunter grenades won't kill you. And any underleveled Titan grenade tossers won't kill you either. This helmet can pretty much, sort of eliminate 1/3 to 1/2 of all potential sticky grenades on you in a game.
the video also shows the Red Death, thorn and TLW. An extra bullet with each. That's fairly substantial. An opponent needs four body shots with the TLW, rather than 3. Or three headshots with the RedDeath, rather than two.
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